Hyper Gamma 4
 

Any comments,tips, hints.. ..

Thanks

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

In PDW700 and alike HG4 is the "heaviest" hypergamma curve (compressing most dynamic range into the 109% video levels)

There is a very nice explanation from sony on the sony website:

Sony : Digital Cinematography with Hypergamma : United Kingdom

Best regards

ULi

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Ok yes thanks.. I've read the Sony stuff.. but thanks for your time sir

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

What do you want to know? Use it where you want greater latitude, but it will have less contrast. More latitude = lower contrast image when viewed on a normal TV or monitor. It's really designed to be graded, hence recording up to 109, but if you add in some negative black stretch you can make the pictures a bit more contrasty.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Thanks Alister yes Ive read your various articles about gamma,s .. and from the Sony site..

Yes all to be graded 10 ways to Sunday.. film rec/Hypergamma was specified as a must.. I went with 4 for latitude up to 109%.. on the same program before I was shooting with HDX900 in film rec..

One question.. I put my pana monitor to film mode in its menu.. BT900.. setting from normal.. on the logic that the pana film rec is also a higher latitude cure .. was that a good idea? also followed your advise and under exposed a bit esp faces.. and of course the VF was "darker" than Im used to seeing.. I guess thats something you get used to..

Maybe a stupid question but.. in a case of not full grade but some tweaking which is pretty easy these days. For max latitude but being on the safe side .. wouldn't hyper gamma 2 .. then be a better curve than STD5 anyway.. I'm thinking of doco shoots here.. monitor for interviews but not when hand held run and gun..

Thanks again

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

What difference does it make if you have a monitor or not -- or what it's settings are? You shouldn't be judging exposure or dynamic range with a monitor because it may or may not have any relevance to what is actually being recorded. Show me two monitors, and I'll show you two different pictures.

Judging exposure with a monitor is akin to judging audio by how it sounds in your headphones instead of looking at the meters.

To answer your question, yes HG 2 (or any of the hypergammas) is going to be better than STD5.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Yes I wouldn't take the monitor as gospel.. but I,ll plug it in and have a look when possible.. Im not getting vector scopes etc out in the field on a doc shoot..

I judge exposure all the time from the VF of my own camera,s.. I agree tricky on a camera thats not your own.. are you a studio cameraman Doug.. on doc,s its very different..

Thanks

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

I do about 80% of my shooting outdoors in fast-moving situations and all I need for exposure is my zebras and nothing more. I never want to spend time grading or correcting footage so it is important to me to nail my final "look" right in the camera. I never judge exposure or color by the image in the viewfinder -- not even with the $12K C35W on my F800. No viewfinder is good enough, and your eye and judgement is too influenced by external factors to be trusted. It's the same reason a good pilot will trust his instruments even if it doesn't feel right to him at the time.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hey Doug,

"...is akin to judging audio by how it sounds in your headphones instead of looking at the meters."

Wow - I totally disagree. How do you "read" a bad sound on the meters? Thats the reason why good soundengineers bring their own "trusty" headphones or monitors.

OK - judging exposure is a bit more scientific , thats what zebras are there for.
And I quite often ran into situations, where an underexposed pic still looked great in my C35WR... (that thing looks toooooo good), cheating me...

As always, its a matter of training and knowing your own production equipment well. For example I am quite well trained to shoot with my Astroh DM3105. It always takes some minutes to get used to it, but after a while I can rely on it (and it shows WFM too).

my 2c.

best regards

ULi

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Were not flying planes, we are supposedly producing images that are as well as technically correct also artistic. There is scope to push and pull exposure, zebras are a guide only, a tool to help. When I used to shoot S16 it was normal to take an exposure reading of a scene and then adjust the exposure up or down based on what I saw with my eyes. Do I want to favour shadows or highlights, is this scene meant to be bright or meant to be dark. Video is no different. The Hypergammas remain moderately linear to about 75%, so provided you keep mid tones and skin tones below about 70% you shouldn't have any issues with small push or pulls in post. I believe a well known or well calibrated viewfinder monitor is by far and away the most useful piece of exposure equipment on the set. I haven't used zebras for years, don't need them, don't want them, they push you to expose everything the same instead of using light and shadow to help tell the story. The viewer doesn't care whether faces are 65% or not, all they want is a pleasing image, exposed creatively.

Consider a simple scene, two people at opposite ends of a room. One standing in the light coming from a window, one sat in a dark corner. Your doing three separate shots an wide showing both actors and one of each actor. Do you expose both faces the same or do you allow the darker one to fall into the shadows? Do you just use zebras to get both the same or do you use a monitor and your judgement to evaluate just how dark you can allow the dark shot to be before it becomes too dark? How can you do this without resorting to using your viewfinder or monitor?

S-Log and Log curves are a little different because the mid range exposure window is very narrow. This forces you to be much more precise with the upper limits of your mid tone exposure, so for these you do need to actually measure or meter your exposure levels and then rely on the extended dynamic range and post production grading to achieve the look you want. You can under expose, but the overexposure window is much smaller.

I'm not going to get into yet another exposure debate with Doug. He has his method and it obviously works well for him. I have my own and it works very well for me. We will never agree on this particular subject, that's fine. I've said what I want to say.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Perhaps its a good idea to sort out WHAT has to be filmed. Do we shoot "scenic" way or ENG style.

Last one usually (interviews and alike) ask for a proper (aka 70%) exposure - Zebras are a big help with that.

Shooting scenic is undoubtly something Alister describes.

Again, know your tools, see what results come up with either method, dont hesitate to shoot experiments and talk with your friendly editor.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Deleted.
Changed my mind about posting on this topic. I've got better things to do than to go down this slippery slope.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hi Doug

Im a freelance cameraman,Im not shooting my own productions.In all these shoots for natgeo/discovery/BBC etc they are always graded to some extent.. some more than others..and they actively don't want a baked in look..not a case of just shooting at any exposure and "fixing in post" but the idea that the footage straight from the camera has to be perfect is not the case.. its like the difference of shooting reversal or negative.. neg is much the better way to go because of the latitude it gave you. a good grader/colorist can do far more than can ever be baked into a in camera look.But it does add to the budget.
Perfection is not mandatory in fim rec or HG. .. they are designed for grading ,the total opposite of what you state .. even REC709 ..doesnt need to be perfect from the camera.Ive been on sets with the tech guys wanting to throw themselves under a bus because some reading is too high or low.. but the picture is great.. and well within tech parameters ..

If you are doing it all yourself and its just a finical consideration to not want to do any grading then thats your choice and of course you would want to have the picture looking exactly as you want it,as you have no choice anyway..

Im with Alister here.. never use Zebra,s.. consistent exposure from shot to shot could work for a shoot all set in the same location at the same time of day under uniformed flat lighting.. if not, you run the risk of consistently boring lighting and mood..
Where do you set your zebra,s with a very high contrast scene.. you are forced to make a judgement of your own .. for the mood and the look.. how can an electronic readout decide that for you.. Are the interiors s of The Godfather 1 and 2 badly light.. studio exc,s at the time claimed so because they were paying $1 million for Brando and you could see him properly.. but once the film made a fortune due to its mood and feel.. they were quick to acclaim their expert choice of Gordon Willis as DP.. ok we are not shooting feature films but the thinking is the same.. even on docs.. no one at home is writing into the BBC about the fantastic chroma levels achieved in Dr Who or Sherlock..


Using and trusting your own eyes,with tech knowledge to make a valued judgement must be the corner stone of any type of photography .. I don't want to be on the plane where the pilot flies into a mountain when he can see it but computer says its not there..

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Sounds like you've got it all figured out, so I'm done with this thread. Good luck.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hi Doug

Sorry please don't take anything personally.. its a forum right... I just put my thoughts..a part from don't ever trust your own eye or a monitor.. and stick with Zebra readings..(in the field) I havnt heard in any detail how your system would say cope with a high contrast scene.. I would honestly be interested to know how you shoot like this .. for a most basic ENG at a beginners level (which of course I know you are not !!) I can see this is belt and braces rock solid advise.. but anything beyond that I can't see how it works.. but totally willing to learn something new..

Thanks

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Although this conversation is no longer about Hyper Gamma 4:

By default, I have zebras on but toggle them on and off to check high contrast scenes.

For example I had to shoot an interview in front of a window the other day. With zebras on the entire background was obscured by zebra pattern and I couldn't judge if I was retaining any detail.

On the other hand, on my first shoot in the Caribbean I ended up over exposing a number of shots because I didn't trust my zebras. The ambient light was so bright that it made me misjudge the exposure when I put my eye to the viewfinder.

Zebras are a useful tool but not always the right tool.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Guess what - I just bought a sekonic lightmeter.

Not for exposure, when the camera is already on set.
But for setting up the lights (find holes in stage lighting etc.).

Regarding Zebras:

Here in Germany the NDR (north german broadcast) recommends to set Zebra to ~53% and set Zebra to DARK skin areas. Its an interesting method, but totally screws you up when you grab a camera set to 53% instead 70% ;-)

Most cameramen I know (we are talking again EB/ENG) use 70%, some use 100% to avoid or see overexp.
Most cams can show 2 Zebras, so you can do both.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hi Mike

Where do you set your levels for Zebra 100%.. ? was the interview in front of the window for a look,or just no choice in the location..

Interesting about the ambient light situation.. also can be very bright where I live.. maybe Im used to to..

Yes Im sure Zebra,s have their use.. I will set them to 100% and like yourself toggle them on sometimes on a camera that isn't mine.. but as a total and final decider never would solely rely on them..

I think the thing with Doug is that he shoots his video like reversal film.. if there is no grading then you have to anyway I guess.. therefore the use of hyper gamma etc would be pointless.. and your levels have to be very precise ..

Horses for courses..

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hi Robin,

I have Zebra 1 on 80-85% and Zebra 2 at 100%. I keep skin tones clear of pattern with maybe the odd highlight showing it. I tend to light softly so highlights like that are rare - maybe on a sweating athlete or a bald man where I can't control the light.

The interview in front of the window was at the golf open and was the only option I had.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

ok thanks.. do you use any of the hyper game,s Ive only just come back to Sony,I had a digibeta 790 but then went to Panasonic for HD..

Are you in Essex i.e. NE of London.. or the NE of London itself..

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

My normal settings use HG, I can't remember which off the top of my head. In post I add a little contrast but it gives me that little bit of extra flexibility for the odd shot that needs it.

Yes, I'm in Essex, just to the NE of London.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hi Robin, I use HG 4 for all outdoor shooting and HG3 for indoor shoots, I'm shooting on a Sony PMW 500 and really like the look of the hypergammas. I use zebras at all times at 80%. I use zebras as a reference or waring sign that I'm getting close to being over exposed for my style of shooting on skin. On skin tones, if I see zebras I will back off a bit or leave a strip or two on the cheek or hands etc...
I find the hypergammas great an have adjusted some of the settings on my 500 to get a look that needs little grading.
Check out my Wild Wheels TV program on You Tube and there you will see the hypergammas from the 500.

I forgot to mention that I have the zebras set at +\- 10% on the 500.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Ok thanks.. my brother lives in Maldon/Heybridge so I go there quite a bit.. Yeah Alister posted about adding a bit of neg black gamma for a bit of contrast..

Thanks again

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hi Simon

Ok thanks for the tip.. I have the 500 also..Ill check out your program..

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

I seldom shoot sikintones over 50 IRE.

And than I even bring em down in post a bit, to give em texture.
Load any major blockbuster into your NLE and measure skintones. They mostly live around 35-40 IRE with a bit more in the highlights.

my ct2 Frank

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Only in low key scenes maybe, 35-40 is very low for normal scene. Most normal lighting scenes would be 45-60 for non shadow areas even in blockbusters.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

I've attached some small images cropped out from recent blockbuster clips. If you load them in to photoshop you'll see that the non-shadow skin tones range from around 45-60%, even the night time Will Smith shot reaches 48%. Yes some movies go lower for particularly dark scenes but 35-40 is not a normal exposure range. The movies are Mission impossible, Skyfall, Salmon Fishing in the Yemen and Men in Black.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Hi Alister

My Pana monitor BT900 has a film-rec setting.. would you advise using that for Sony HG,s or leave it 709 to see how it looks on a "normal" tv before grading..

Thanks again

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

I'd leave it on 709 as that's how the end user will be viewing you footage. The Film Rec curve is there to match the Panasonic Film Rec gamma and applies a correction to the image to show a more natural image. But this is specifically for the Pana gamma and not Sony's Hypergamma.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Ok thanks for your time.. I used to do some shoots for DVA by the way.. way back in the 80,s ..

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Of course Robin, you name has been bugging me for a while. That's the connection.

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

I was cam assist for Barry Ackroyd for about 6 yrs and he was friends with Dave.. I remember operating on one of their corp shoots with Dawn French.. and being unable to actually pan or tilt.. the camera as i was laughing so hard.. became a serious problem and ending up drawing blood due to biting the inside of my mouth..!!

Re: Hyper Gamma 4
 

Lots of talk about Hyper Gamma here and people liking the look.

My tests with HG2 compared to R709 look dark and flat and I havent had the courage to try fully in the field on a job. Maybe HG is more natural for a film look but for TV, corporate or event, the image would appear to require a basic grade to lift midtones, add contrast and maybe add chroma saturation.

I have shot on ITU-R709 on my PDW-700 for the last 5 years and shoot 50i. My output is non-broadcast DVD/BD/Web. The only reason I am investigating a change is because I'm noticing more and more encoders or devices clamping 109 IRE white at 100, thus am looking to legalise at 100 IRE and considering trying HG 1/2. I've also had a tendency to slighly overexpose but thats another subject, have reduced zebra to 70% and how i assess the viewfinder to try and nail exposure better.

My dilema is whether to try HG2 outdoor and HG1 indoor on a job being careful not to overexpose mid/fleshtones (from what I've read). Applying a basic grade preset to all outdoor clips and another preset to all indoor clips only tweaking the odd shot if necessary. Although changing HG if going from indoor to outdoor alot will be a pain. I also dont want to have to grade on a shot by shot basis.

Alternatively, continue with R709 and spend more time experimenting with knee settings to mimic the latitude of HG and try and get pleasing highlight handling in-camera.

Can anyone suggest R709 or HG paint settings giving rich blacks, good contrast, colour saturation and knee handling for live to air output or where no grading? Is there merit to use standard ITU-R709, detail -19. Maybe turn down Master Black a touch when not grading?