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-   -   going progressive (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-eng-efp-shoulder-mounts/77664-going-progressive.html)

Andzei Matsukevits October 17th, 2006 01:26 PM

going progressive
I'll be shooting a music video with Sony PDW-530P XDCAM and the mission is to get as close as possible to "film look" while not loosing quality significally...

i talked to 2 pro operators, one of them said: "u must go only with progressive"

second one said: "no way, u should'nt go progressive"

what u guys recommend then?

i though if i go progressive, should i film in 24p? or more frames would look better?


Bill Weaver October 17th, 2006 04:24 PM

I am shooting a major project in 1080 24p on 330 XDCam. I love the look of it.

Nate Weaver October 17th, 2006 04:52 PM

Pretty much every video you see on MTV is shot on film at 24fps if in North America, or 25fps if in Europe, ec.

The way to emulate that is shoot 24p or 25p on video. If you're shooting in the states you'd do 24p.

And that's the way it is.

Simon Wyndham October 18th, 2006 03:41 AM

Andzei, if you want the film look you must use progressive scan. On the PDW-530 and 510 series progressive scan is full resolution with no drop in quality. The only issue you might face is the framerate.

If you are using the NTSC version of the camera you can shoot 30p as standard. However for 24p you will need the add on CBK-FC01 option board. If you have the PAL version of the camera then you must shoot 25p.

If you decide to go with the progressive look remember to turn the shutter on to 1/50th if shooting PAL, 1/48th if shooting 24p, or 1/60th if shoting 30p.

From your description you are using the PAL version of the camera. So shoot 25p (the only choice you have) with the shutter set to 1/50th (make sure this is displayed in the viewfinder, otherwise your shutter is off!)

There are other things you can adjust too such as the detail settings, but I won't go into them yet.

The progressive scan look is used extensively these days, so my advice is to ignore the guys telling you not to use it. If you don't want it to look like 'video' or rather 'traditional video' then you have to use progressive scan.

Andzei Matsukevits October 18th, 2006 07:02 AM

thanks a lot,

so i go 25p with shutter speed of 1/50,

We will have a lot of strobo effect and bright light flashing, do you think it will be ok with such a shutter speed?

Ben Gurvich October 18th, 2006 07:16 AM

Simon, what is the reason to shoot with the shutter on for PAL as the standard frame rate is also 50hz?

I shot some progressive exteriors with the 530p and thought that because it was progressive it would instantly look very much like film. But because it was so clean at 50m/bits and that i had large depth of field in the shot it just looked like stroby digibeta. (this was when the cams had just been released some time ago)

Don't screw with the color menu's too much if your 'green' because youll come back with an image that is already "graded" and harder to tweak. Based on my limited experience with the 530p. Shoot progressive with the cinema gamma settings on about 4 and tweak the rest like black stretch in post.

Simon Wyndham October 18th, 2006 07:28 AM

Ben, with the shutter left off the camera is using the equivilent of 1/25th shutter, which would be the same as a film camera with a 360 degree shutter (actually impossible on a real film camera).

To get the film look the shutter has to be turned on to 1/50th. If you leave the shutter off the movement will look very smeary, and quite video like.

FLM gamma 4 is a good choice, as is 1.


and that i had large depth of field in the shot it just looked like stroby digibeta.
Film look is more than just progressive scan. Another element is how edge frequencies behave during movement. This is why quite often the detail will be drastically reduced, or even switched off in video cameras that are trying to replicate a film look. Too often people put their cameras in progressive scan and leave the detail as it is, or only slightly reduce it. The result is stroby looking 'video' because the telltale digital edge enhancement and over 'edginess' is still there.

Andzei, don't worry about the strobing lights etc. It won't be a problem. With 1/50th shutter and 25p it will be the same as a film camera running at 25fps with a 180 degree shutter.

Andzei Matsukevits October 18th, 2006 08:37 AM

yes, im new to it....

so, i'll put shutter on 1/50, cinema gamma settings on 4 or 1 and drastcally decrease the detail setup, right?

Can i tweak exposure and set white balance as i want, or i have to be aware of something?

Simon Wyndham October 18th, 2006 09:34 AM

Yes, shutter on to 1/50th. The FLM gamma settings are not essential, but you will gain better handling of contrast if you do. Blacks will be lifted ever so slightly.

As for the detail, it would be best for you to conduct tests with the director. Speaking for myself I always turn the detail off completely for the film look. I leave the Aperture on, but put the Detail Frequency up to +99.

Exposure and white balance are exactly the same as per normal. But be aware that in proscan mode and 1/50th shutter the camera will be around 1 stop less sensitive than it is in interlaced mode. This shouldn't be a problem though (I've shot in all kinds of conditions and it has never caused me any trouble).

Alister Chapman October 18th, 2006 01:32 PM

Andzei, If you are shooting under any type of mains discharge lamp (sodium, flourescent etc) at 1/50th (or even 1/48th) sec shutter then strobing CAN be an issue as the light may be striking and hence producing light when the shutter is closed however the stobing will only be slight. The problem will be more noticable in 60hz countries as the shutter and lights will drift in and out of sync and then you get a cyclic decrease/increase in light. This is also true of film cameras.

Andzei Matsukevits October 19th, 2006 12:32 AM

ok, now its clear. Thanks a lot...

producer decided to hire a pro operator anyway, but i will make him set these settings...he was just against progressive mode, maybe he just dont know how to set everything up properly....

Ben Gurvich October 19th, 2006 03:02 AM


Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham
Ben, with the shutter left off the camera is using the equivilent of 1/25th shutter, which would be the same as a film camera with a 360 degree shutter (actually impossible on a real film camera).

Ive been pondering over this for a minute or 2. Ofcourse! Its 1/25 with no shutter becuase there are only 25 frames a second. I knew you had to shoot with shutter on 1/50 but i didnt add up that progressive = 1/25.
This explains a few things.

Bill Weaver October 19th, 2006 08:37 AM

If movement is minimal, 24p without shutter ain't that bad. If you're shooting in low light or flourescents, you might consider.....

Simon Wyndham October 19th, 2006 08:48 AM

Remember, he is shooting 25p, not 24.

Flourescent lights should not be a problem unless he uses an uneven speed shutter (or as Alister mentioned, a 60hz light for example). Certainly I have never ever enountered any flourscent, or indeed any other light, cycling problems using 25p and a 1/50th shutter. And theoretically at that speed there shouldn't be.

Alister Chapman October 19th, 2006 11:18 AM

Most Flourescents these days have high frequency ballasts, so it is not the problem it used to be. However only a few weeks ago I encounterd some really wierd strobing and it took me a while to work out what was going on. I was in a large open plan office and the lights at different ends of the office were on different phases of a 3 phase supply. In the middle of the office the lighting was going up and down as the lights went in and out of sync with each other! Very wierd. Mercury Discharge lamps can be a problem as the "on" period is very short.

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