Is your HVR-DR60 stealing disk space from you?
 

I just wanted to validate my brief experience & see if anyone has any answers:

I've filled my DR60 to the brim twice, and each time, when I mount it on the computer, I find that there's approximately 4.40 GB of free space left over on the partition that holds the HDV files.

It's bad enough that those seemingly useless (at least once you dump the drive) .ts and .idx files take about 1.00 GB away, but why is the DR60 not using the last 4.40 GB? That's basically criminal, considering that the whole drive formatted is less than 60 GB (and also considering the cost of the unit).

Does this thing need a firmware update? Is this some weird FAT32 phenomenon?

Thanks,
Brent

Just a bump -- Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Is your HVR-DR60 stealing disk space from you?
 

Apologies for cross-posting this from the "direct to disk" forum, but I've racked up 60 views there, with no responses. Hopefully someone here can chime in:

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I just wanted to validate my brief experience & see if anyone has any answers:

I've filled my DR60 to the brim twice, and each time, when I mount it on the computer, I find that there's approximately 4.40 GB of free space left over on the partition that holds the HDV files.

It's bad enough that those seemingly useless (at least once you dump the drive) .ts and .idx files take about 1.00 GB away, but why is the DR60 not using the last 4.40 GB? That's basically criminal, considering that the whole drive formatted is less than 60 GB (and also considering the cost of the unit).

Does this thing need a firmware update? Is this some weird FAT32 phenomenon?

Thanks,
Brent

Brent,

I'll chime in. Now I'm just speculating based on hard drives, but I bet that Sony implemented this 'lack of full disk usage' for a few reasons. One, the operating system on the unit needs space (obviously not 4.4 gigs...), but I think the second reason would be how a hard drive operates when nearing it's limit on full capacity. I believe (and it's been recommended to my before) that you should never allow a hard drive to fill all the way up due to that fact that it affects performance/failure rate. Now again, I'm just offering what I believe could be the cause of this.

If anyone has the 'real' answer, let us know (I'm thinking about getting one of these drives too).

Thanks for the reply, Todd. I understand your theory (though I'm in trouble with most of my hard drives if that's the case!), but leaving 4.40 free out of less than 60 GB formatted seems excessively cautious to me, even if that's the case.

I'd love to hear from some DR60 owners whether they've observed the same thing, at least so I know my unit is not defective. Assuming all is consistent among us, I hope someone with contacts at Sony can get an answer to this, because it's really not cool. I'd be less annoyed if the drive started out at 120 GB or something, but the effective price per GB has gone up substantially if this is the case (though I guess the advertised recording time may actually be accurate -- I haven't really checked that).

Brent

According to sources at Sony, it's a buffer to prevent you from accidentally going too far with the drive and locking up your media.
Call it a safeguard. If you're trusting your critical content to an HDD, don't you want to know it's safe? Nnovia does much the same thing.

Let me ask you a question about sth else; you mentioned you broke the mic cable clamp by pushing too fat an XLR cable in it. Now, it almost happened to me as well! What is this clamp made of, cause I can't tell - is it a plastic or metal thingy? How is it fixed to the XLR box bottom - I can't see any screw, either (and the clamp is loose and rotates slightly)?

Thanks for your answer!

Hi, Piotr:

The clamp is made of plastic. Funny you should ask how it's affixed, because I initially figured it would just pop into the bottom of the XLR box, through a tiny hole. But when I got the replacement, just by looking at the part of the clamp that you don't normally see, I could tell that there's no way such a "nub" could simply pop in and out. My assumption is that you have to open up the XLR box in order to replace the clamp. Maybe that's no big deal, but since I'm not using the clamp anyway (particularly since it is admittedly rather flimsy and only safe for cables roughly the diameter of the included mic's cable), I'm just keeping the replacement clamp in a drawer for now. I was stupid enough to take a needle-nose plier to the broken clamp and rip the remaining exterior portion off, which luckily did no damage, and I guess left the hidden half of the clamp stuck inside. And yes, before mine broke, it wasn't wildly loose, but it did have a little bit of play in it, if I remember correctly.

A long explanation about a tiny plastic part!

Brent

a 4.4 gb buffer? So the drive won't lock? I don't get it.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind hearing a little more detailed explanation for the amount of slack (not that I don't believe that there is a good reason, just curious).

Anyway, I think it would be a good idea for Sony to slip in an addendum sheet for the manual, just letting people know that it's normal to see that unused space when you mount the drive. Maybe DSE can mention this to one of his contacts there.

I'm surprised that no one else asked about this before I did...

And thanks, DSE, for confirming that what I'm seeing is at least normal and expected.

Brent

Brent, could you please update us on 2 things:

- what is the recording time before the drive is full?

- what is the cluster size in the formatted drive (you can check it when mounted in Windows with the chkdsk command); for performance reasons, it probably was chosen quite big as the files written to it are usually huge - this might explain some slack (not 7%, though...).

Thanks!

Piotr,

I'll check on those questions ASAP and will let you know....I just dumped the drive, so I need to fill it up again.

Brent

Brent, I'm looking forward to this info...Also, can you tell us how noisy the DR60 drive is - when mounted on the cold shoe, does the mic catch the spinning noise?

Both DR 60's I own are silent, it's difficult to know when they're even running.
Project today recorded full on one at 4:37, the other reported full at 4:48.
I'm very uncomfortable pushing the drive past 4 hours, regardless.

Buffer or not.
 

a) filesystems go slow when they get >95% full, 5% of 60GB would be 3GB
b) a 60GB drive is usually not more than 57GB formated
c) there could be a reserved buffer area not visible to the filesystem in the last few GB.

however the question is: does sony use a standard filesystem or the disk blockwise in a custom way. which would make sense for speed. and it also makes sense to do that within a standard filesystem as reserved space and or files (like the swap file in windows).

taking all that into account this is sane. there are multiple technical reasons and sony surely would not waste space, cause the competitors definitely won't ...

Piotr,

Echoing was DSE said, although I haven't had a chance to put on headphones and scrutinize any sound leakage into my recording, the DR60 is essentially silent, even with your ear right up to it, in a quiet room, and with no tape running in the camera. Really, really silent -- I think I can pick up an incredibly faint whir with my ear right on it, but I'm relatively young and have good hearing. Basically, it's a non-issue.

Brent

DSE -- what accounts for the 11 minute difference? Did one project have substantially more starts/stops and therefore more of the "extra" index files the DR60 creates? If so, it would be interesting to compare filling up the DR60 with one shot, versus filling it up by doing 4+ hours of 1-minute interval recording. (Well, maybe not interesting enough to bother trying this experiment, but it would be mildly enlightening.)

Brent

Remember that the filesize is dependent on content, hence the term "average." I think you're looking for black and white answers in an interframe world. You won't find them. HDV frame sizes are relative to previous and post frame information.

Last night, I recorded the DR60 with a mic much more sensitive than my ears, and the very faint "whine" I hear with the device stuck next to my ear seems to sit right around 8K, and very, very quiet. I can hear it if the drive is sitting tight against my ear, but the on-cam mic doesn't hear it, and it's inaudible (I'm not so young and don't have awesome hearing any longer) at a distance of a few inches.

Nevertheless, I suspect that depriving the V1 of an on-board mic, as well as providing a rather muffled shotgun and XLR section, could all be made on purpose - with the DR60 in mind. I'm using a much more sensitive on-camera microphone, and am afraid it will be catching this whine - however subtle it is.

The "XLR section" is not at all "muffled" and I'd ask you to demonstrate otherwise. The included microphone is not "muffled" and I'd appreciate you also demonstrating otherwise. It is indeed, a low-grade microphone, but it does have a reasonably flat response in the mid ranges. It's a mic that might cost you $200.00 at best if you were to buy it off the shelf. The ECM-NV1 has been bundled with camcorders since the PD170, and this is the first report I can find on the web that it's "muffled." While I've not put the V1 against the Z1, Sony A1, Canon A1, Canon H1 nor JVC HD100 on test equipment to measure signals, I also cannot/do not perceive any significant differences between any of the HDV camcorder audio sections.

There is not a prayer of a chance that you'll ever encounter a recording environment that is more quiet than the DR60, unless you're shooting in an anechoic chamber. All that said, you've got significantly greater worries when using any on-camera microphone, than picking up a very quiet whir that every HDD device has. The XDCAM HD machines are louder than the DR60 is. Just yesterday, I compared the two. And both XDCAM HD and DR60 are incredibly quiet by comparison to a tape mechanism.
In other words, your tape mechanism generates significantly greater noise product than a DR60 HDD system. Which "much more sensitive mic" are you using that would pick up the DR60 but not hear your tape mechanism?

You've made a huge accusation in saying Sony deliberately short-changed the audio features on the V1 to support the DR60. I'd very much appreciate specific evidence of your assertion. I'll wager everyone here would appreciate demonstrable evidence that the V1 has a "muffled mic and XLR section."

I have bought the V1 as the camera of choice, after a couple of months testing it against the competitors - and you're accusing me of a "conspiracy" against it?!!

Let me explain that I'm using a very hot, stereo mic (Edirol CS-50) and - being about to purchase the DR60 - have been wondering whether putting it on the shoe will be OK, or if I should be buying the VCT-1BP bracket and mounting the drive at the camera back (as far as possible from the mic). That's it.

Your comment about other mechanisms being louder that the DR60 is irrelevant, as none of them is designed to work in such a close vicinity of a microphone.

And as for evidence, please see this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=87566. One can clearly see that I'm not the only one to find the ECM-NV1 and/or XLR section output relatively low. In particular, here is what Bob has to say on it: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....87&postcount=9

I don't happen to know Piotr personally, but it always catches my eye how his signature includes "Sony V1E - tested & chosen." To me, that sounds like he's rather proud of his camera, but what do I know.

I think we can all agree that even our favorite toys (and/or professional tools), now matter how well-designed and well-engineered, always fall short in some areas. Dare I say that some of my favorite gadgets shine in many areas but outright SUCK in others. This, however, does not imply that I don't like the gadgets, spend my money on them and their accessories, and support their manufacturers.

In my opinion, Sony does not have the market cornered on making flawless products, with no annoyances or design compromises. Is the V1's mic section somehow "tailored" to not pick up DR60 noise? I don't know. But even if that were an engineering decision, does this imply a conspiracy? There are more important issues in the world that might indeed be conspiracies...

Piotr has a great question in wondering whether he should mount a DR60 on the coldshoe or on the VCT-1BP bracket -- a very valid question. I'm almost afraid to say that I was looking at the bracket, and man is it overpriced! Go ahead, shoot me for criticizing Sony's prices -- it's not like I didn't just give them a ton of money for the V1U and a slew of Sony-branded accessories. I might just pick up the VCT-1BP bracket too. ;-)

Brent

I couldn't put it better, Brent. Well, I guess I'll be using the bracket whenever possible; in particular when shooting from a tripod with a light on the coldshoe. This will not only eliminate the slightest possibility of recording the noise (and there will be some after a year or two, as with any spinning mechanism), but also help balancing the whole rig.

In handheld situations, however, the bracket is out of question - hence my concern.

Piotr, my 0.02c worth after taking hours upon hours of footage for two projects with the DR60 is that I haven't noticed any noise issues with either the attached boom or with several different mics on a boom pole. The DR60 has transformed the way that I use the cam.
Greg

Thanks, Greg - I'm hoping for the same experience!

Piotr, there is a significant difference between "muffled" output being designed to not pick up all frequencies, and a low output mic.
The output of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder.
The NV1 is a low sensitivity mic, no doubt. No one in their right mind would use it for any sound use outside of reference audio.
But there is a significant statement in saying that Sony designed the front end of the V1 to "muffle audio" so as to not hear the extremely quiet, very high-pitched sound of the DR60.
Many people read these forums, and as such, I expect you'll back up your claim that the V1 doesn't offer full frequency response.

Douglas, I'd like to remind you English is not my first language, so it's possible I haven't used the best word to describe what I mean. If indeed "muffled" equals "not offering full frequency response", than it's not what I meant - the frequency response is no worse than with other cams; I only meant the output level is quite low. I guess that considering the context, all those many people you mention can understand my intentions correctly.

For clarification, Piotr, you initially suggested that Sony designed the front end to be muffled, but now you're suggesting it's the output rather than input that is quite low? I'm confused.
I'm not trying to give you grief about the words you've used; after having read/edited/responded to several hundred of your posts, I believe your English is quite good. Simply put, I'd like to understand better what you're saying.

The input side of the camcorder is no different than the input section of any other HDV camcorder. The output section of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder. The frequency response of the V1 is no different than any other HDV camcorder. The mic is indeed, not the most sensitive mic available by any stretch; most folks that would use an on-camera microphone would replace this lower-grade mic with a more sensitive mic, as you've said you've done. None of the HDV camcorders come with (what I'd consider) a sensitive or high quality mic.

Headphone impedance varies greatly, so if you've got a 600 ohm headphone vs a 75 ohm headphone for example, then you'll have very different monitoring levels. Low impedance headphones will sound louder from devices with low output voltages.
None of this discussion applies to recorded levels, which is what your original response seems to imply.

Back to point, I'd appreciate knowing of *any* instance where a tape mechanism is more quiet than a DR60. The camcorder itself generates quite a bit more noise than does the DR60.

If you're concerned about body-borne noise, the tape mechanism is even more likely to carry into the mic vs the HDD unit, as again, it's noticeably more loud.

I can vouch for the fact that tape transports are way louder than the DR60, especially as they get older. I'd add zoom and focus motors, my clumsy paws on the camera and the sound of my breathing as well.
If you want to record the sounds of ants walking any mic plugged into any camera and mounted on the camera is not the way to do it.
Also the sensitivity of a mic has nothing to do with how much unwanted sound it'll pickup. Spacial and spectral response is what matters along with mechanical isolation.

Douglas, while I'm not considerin the V1 sound THAT bad, I think you should take a look here:

http://www.aamserver.dnsalias.com/ba..._Audio(DV).htm

Please comment!

Comment.
I'm well aware of the owner of that website's claims, have had private dialog with him, and couldn't possibly be more diametrically opposed.
He isn't a poster here and therefore I'll leave it at that.
IMO, his claims are past absurd.

As someone who used to test audio gear I have to agree with Douglas's comments. Even assuming the measured results are accurate I'm still left going "so what?"

How do they compare to other cameras is the same class?
How do those results compare to other non camera based recording options?

And when that's all said and done it's no great secret that no camera is designed as the ultimate audio recording device. There's plenty of options from cheap to staggeringly expensive when it comes to recording location sound, many of the WAY more expensive than several V1s.

Somehow I don't see a huge market for a camera twice the price and twice the size of a V1 with the same image quality but an audio section that's 'studio grade'.

If you're dead set serious about location audio, in the first place we wouldn't be even having a discussion about mics on cameras and secondly you'd be taking along a decent purpose built audio recorder and someone to mother it. Once you accept the fact that by having the mic on the camera the sound reaching the mic is very seriously compromised before you even get started you realise how pointless the rest of the discussion is.

Or to look at it another way broadcasters aren't known to pay more people than they need to and yet they still send out an audio guy and a video guy and that's just for dialogue.

Douglas and Bob,

Thanks for your comments. I don't have an opinion on whether the author's measurements method was correct or not, but I agree that to my own ears, the frequency response of my V1E is not at all as bad as he claims. One fact that denies his results would be that when I engage wind noise reduction on the camera (or the 80 Hz filter on my Edirol mic), I can hear the difference - which would not be there should the V1's circuitry roll off at above 1000 Hz.

Just came across this recently, and it reminded me of this old thread of ours:-)

Audio roll off at 1222Hz?
 

I was reading some chatter about this camera on another forum and a user was very disappointed with the low-end frequency response.
Were these measurements a result of a defective camera, an inherent deficiency of the HDV format, or a design flaw?

Still trying to decide between the V1, the JVC 110 and Canon A1. Thanks for everyone's input so far.

Bill

Having recorded audio for national release with this camera (actually 6 of them) and knowing of one weekly broadcast from a very well known production company (over 100M in revenues in 2006) using the V1 and field audio to the V1 for parts of the show production, not to mention the thousands of V1's that are out there in daily use, his assertions are either mismeasured, or there is some other agenda there, or he's had two "bad" cameras, which is quite difficult to accept.
All that said, he's not permitted to post in this community; so it's not appropriate to have discussions about his "findings."

The V1 has typical camcorder sound. I'd expect the same from JVC or Canon.

"Typical camcorder sound" to me means that it is fine for all purposes of recording dialog and narrative when using an appropriate mic with manual recording level.

I've heard others say that the auto gain functions are pretty good as far as such things go, I have no application for auto gain so I can't speak from my own experience.

"Typical camcorder sound" to me means that any built-in mics have very limited application. A camera mounted mic is only good for collecting ambience. If you feel otherwise, we're speaking different languages, or, working in different markets. In the markets I work in, sound matters a lot, so, a microphone will always be very close to the subject, which is impossible with a camera-mounted microphone.

"Typical camcorder sound" to me means that I'll want a separate audio recording of music that will be used as a foreground source. Audio is pretty important to me, and I do a fair amount of recording with acoustic performers.

Finally, and maybe most importantly, I've done hours of recording with a high-quality mic with the V1, and listened to the results on reference-quality monitors, and it sounds fine. I trust my ears, they have 27 years of pro audio mixing experience.

The V1 is also just a camera, not a religion, and if a JVC110 or Canon A1 will work better for you, you should get them. It won't be audio quality that determines this.

If you value the good removable glass and shoulder mount, there really is no competition to the JVC100-110. For me, I needed a smaller camera, but I've used the 100 and it is fine and the 720p is very good indeed. The Canon A1 is quite a bit closer to the V1 in how you might use it. Haven't used one, myself.

Provoked by the article in question on how "bad" the freq response is on V1, today I recorded some live band with my on-camera stereo shotgun Edirol CS-50. I played it back and was pleased with the results - no distorsion, plenty of bass. I remembered to switch wind reduction off, but unfortunately kept my dead cat on the mic, which means that without it the sound could actually be even better.

And all this in AGC, and on-camera mic.

Actually those test results don't look bad for camera audio. The only criticism is of frequency response, and there it's falling off the page below 100Hz; looks to be about -6dB at 80Hz. I don't see much problem for speech. If designed to minimise audio problems it will be the general LF background noise that plagues most environments. The author presents the results with a rather silly dB scale chosen to exaggerate differences. Out to 20KHz his curve is only 1.5dB down (or 3dB relative to 1KHz), so I don't see any "muffling" of potential 8KHz whine from the HVR-DR60.