Yes - this is one of the odd interface things on this camera which seemed to lead to the erroneous conclusion early on that you could not control/lock both shutter and iris independently & simultaneously (which apparently is the case with the earlier JVC HDV camera).

If you set a shutter speed and then press the exposure button, the shutter speed button becomes grayed out and you cannot change the speed further - however, the speed doesn't change from what you locked it at. The current speed will still be displayed on screen, and despite forcing extremes of both under- and overexposure I have never been able to get it to change(either as indicated or visually) once locked. Now using the exposure lever is only changing the gain (first 6 positions) or iris+NDs. If you want to change the shutter speed you have to press the exposure button (returning the exposure to auto), change the shutter speed, and then press the exposure button again to return to manual control. So you can control & lock both simultaneously, you just can't adjust them both simultaneously - which I don't consider a significant limitation because in most cases I will set the shutter speed once up front for a particular situation and then make all further exposure adjustments with the exposure control.

doing a shot/reverse shot
 

Thanks for all your answers.
But just a few more details:

1. Doing a shot/reverse shot at 5.6 f-stop was JUST AN EXAMPLE, that you learn as soon as you start a course in a Film School. Of course I know it varies from camera to camera, and even for different dramactic situations.

2. The question above mentioned by Steve is very interesting. Is there any answer to it?. I think if you lock the exposure, probably the camera will change the shutter.

3. What happens when you do your shot/reverse shot at a different time (maybe one of the actors is ill, or arrives later, and your schedule doesn´t allow you to spend your time waiting)? Maybe I will be able to fix it with the way some of you had posted. But why should I spend so many time doing this things, when every camera sold as a 'pro' model (except the A1, as far as I know) have direct access to the iris?

4. Someone said that Sony has hidden nothing. I don't agree. I bought the camera based on the information provided by Sony and some 'independent' rewiews on Internet (I could not do it in a different way, because in my area there are not too many stores where you can purchase the 'pro' models).
So, I just have the oportunity to read the information provided by Sony, and I can assure that they never mentioned the lack of iris control or information on the f-stop. The same applies to the seller. And the 'supposed' independent reviews on Internet didn´t mention it (by the time I bought the camera, the only problem found by these people was 'the bottom loading').
And I would like to clarify that I'm talking about the A1 (a 'pro' model according to Sony's information), not the HC1 or FX1 (which are sold as 'consumer cameras'). How could I imagine that a 'pro' model lacks an appropiate iris control? I could not. For the forthcoming Sony's products I bought I will be more cautious...if I bought something made by Sony again (I doubt it).

My advice for serious filmmakers (aside those who shot docucumentaries) is to look for a different model (or brand) with less 'copromises' which I consider essenttials. If you don't believe me try reading 'cinematography.com' forums or others similar to this, and you'll realize what the cinematographers think about the A1: just the same as myself.

Vincent, you say: ''I think if you lock the exposure, probably the camera will change the shutter.''

This doesn't make sense. If you lock the exposure then you lock the iris, the shutter speed, the gain setting and the ND filtration. If it's locked, it's locked.

I can understand that you feel upset that Sony were 'economical with the truth' when giving you the technical specification of the A1, but I assure you the PDX10 (the model before the A1) was exactly the same - no proper aperture readouts - even in the replay mode. Sony sold bucket-loads of them. Why? Great pictures from a tiny box.

Panasonic are shy too. I have the DVX100A brochure - many glossy pages of enthusiasm for the camera and yet not once does it tell me what the maximum aperture of the lens is at full telephoto. And this for a camera! It's the same with all their cameras - especialy with the ones that use internal ND filters. They keep quiet about the compromises.

Why didn't you ask here for info before you paid for the A1? That's what the web's so good at - telling the truth behind the glossy brochure pages. Sony will continue to sell the A1 simply because today there's simply no competition for it at that price/size/weight/performance point. It produces pictures way better than any Canon, Panasonic, Sharp, JVC - even when those others cost twice the price. And for that very good reason you must accept some compromises.

Go out and enjoy your A1. Rejoice in the fact that you can shoot alongside people with much bigger and more expensive cams and KNOW that you're bring home footage that's 4x as sharp. That's quite a knockout punch.

tom.

Look, the reason this A1 camera should have the f-stops rather than 'clicks' or '+/- notches' is that we already have a set standard for lens settings - f-stops!

Why the need to translate '6 clicks from the right' to '0db' when we already have correct, consistant nomenclature for this? Terms that are actually used by the very same camera when you read the data of an existing shot on tape?

Don't defend Sony for 'not hiding anything,' it's OK as a consumer to ask for more, especially when Sony markets this as a 'pro' cam. Pros use 'f-stop' in their canon, it's a standard.

It's not our fault Sony didn't put the pro features in - telling someone they "should have looked here first to learn more about the camera before they bought it," well, that's just batting for the other team, in my eyes. I also had trouble with features missing, despite some seriously believable signposts telling me otherwise:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....5&postcount=13

Saying the consumer needs to be more aware and not purchse something if the features you want aren't there... That logic works well if there are a lot of choices in the market, like say, if you're looking for a 5-megapixel still camera - there are a lot of those, and you can 'punish' the manufacturer by not purchasing the camera lacking features you want. Evan Donn presented this same point very well above.

But this is a very limited market with under 5 cameras at this price point and physical size. There really is no other choice, so asking why certain things are omitted is fine with me. It's still a great value, I know - but Sony created an 85% solution when they could have answered 95% or 100%. Hopefully Sony will actually create an A1 with the pro settings of a Z1; it's still a different camera with different strengths.

Personally, I could have stretched (_quite_ a stretch for me) financially and gotten the Z1, but the real appeal of the A1 was the size - I know I'm missing the 3 CCDs, the manual buttons and knobs everywhere, but taking some of the electronic features and dumbing them down is disappointing, and I don't mind saying it - that's why you make the HC1. But the A1?

Yeah, of course I still bought it.

My point isn't to defend Sony's BS marketing tactics. But just because I don't like them doesn't mean Sony is wrong to do them.

The answer to the question of why certain things are omitted is that there is no other choice. Not only is there no other choice, but at the next step up (the Z1) there isn't even much - you'd have to stretch as much or more again to go from a Z1 to a competitor's product as you would to go from an A1 to the Z1. So the choice is really between two Sony products, and I completely understand why Sony would try to skew that choice towards the more expensive camera. I don't like it, and of course I have the right to ask Sony for more, but Sony also has the right to do whatever they want with their products.

All that aside, my point for Vincent is that if you've already got the A1, you can't return it and don't want to sell it and get something else, you can still go out and shoot great videos with it. Yes it means you'll have to learn to deal with the quirks of the camera, but I have yet to work with a camera where that wasn't the case.

Contact Sony and let them know that you're unhappy with their marketing tactics and that you won't be purchasing any products from them in the future. Let them know that you aren't the only one and that this is a general concern in the community. Write up your own reviews of the camera and post them online to help others avoid the same situation you find yourself in.

But while you're doing all that take the A1 and learn how to use it to take the images you have in your head and put them onscreen - despite Sony's marketing decisions the camera is still capable of producing an amazing image - as long as you know how to use it (and can give it enough light).

I can't image buying ANY camera without trying it out first! Every Best Buy has had the HC1 for months. If you would have tried one out you would have found the lack of indication.

I also can't image buying a camcorder without going on-line.

But, the bottom line is that there is no block to your using the camcorder and although I think this is a great discussion because of all the technical information -- the "Sony didn't tell me" whine is getting old.

Its the JVC I was thinking about so this is good news indeed.

Control is really simple with your chart:

F2.4 0dB -- only for minimum DOF

F3.4 0dB

F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB
F4 0dB

F5.6 0dB

Simply draw a bar underneath all the F4 settings and a dot at F2.4. And then another bar under:

F1.8 12dB
F1.8 6dB

The latter indicates settings with added gain but not too much added noise.

About HC1 aperture...

http://cinoche.blogsource.com

I can not imagine expressing my thoughts better than Bill McMullen has done. I agree with him in every opinion he has given.
The f-stops are standards in the 'pro' wordl, and the Z1 is not the answer to my needs, because I bought the A1 mainly for it's small size which allows me to put the camera in my suitcase together with my laptop and shooting while I'm travelling attending meetings all around Europe.

Some of you had suggested to contact Sony. I've already done it.
And the good thing is that under the European Union 'Consumer Protection Laws' one could sue them (for unfair advertising), and despite they should have the best lawyers in Europe I think there are chances to beat them in court. But of course I'm not going to do it, I have to recognise I have over-reacted about this matter.


What I can not understand is why some of you are so passionately defending Sony's position? If you do not complain, Sony will never see the need to improve their products or make their advertisement more 'transparent'. But in a free market that's precisely our strenght as customers: fight to get the most for our money.


And last but not least, and this is one of few points I agree with Steve (aside of technical advice), the "Sony didn't tell me" whine is getting old.

Let's talk on how can we can get the most from what we actually have.

PD: Take a look to the link posted by Rodolphe, I found it very interesting.

''What I can not understand is why some of you are so passionately defending Sony's position?''

Because unlike all the other camcorder manufacturers they appear to have a defined link between design, sales and marketing. If you want apertures shown on your Canon you have just three models to choose from (and I'm assuming the XL2 is still in production). Panasonic? Just two models Think the XLR equipped DVC30 is included? Nope.

Sony sell the VX2100, PD170, FX1 and Z1, and all of them pull no punches. If Sony are to be smacked for 'with-holding info from the public' then Canon and Panasonic better go into hiding.

tom.

My french is a little rusty, but it illustrates very well what I was able to see using a flashlight - 4 blade diamond shaped iris with 2 NDs at various positions in the f4 range. I attempted to photograph it this weekend but there are so many reflections from the flashlight in the various lens elements that it's difficult to get a shot which shows the NDs - their method is certainly much more effective.

It also explains something I'd noticed occasionally in a few shots, especially one long focal length shot of a bird with water behind it - the bokeh has a noticeable geometric texture to it when there are a lot of out-of-focus highlights.

Sony's US patent no. 6,533,473 describes a diamond-shaped iris with two ND filters. Figures 3 and 6 in the patent illustrate the progression as it stops down. Is this what you were seeing?

http://www.google.com/patents?vid=US...BAJ&dq=6533473

Good Work, Mike.

Are you a patent attorney : )

No, but for both the Sony camcorders and the Canon HV10 (thread titled 'HV10 - ND Gradation feature'), the patent descriptions provide more detail than is available elsewhere.

Sony and Canon have pursued different physical implementations of the iris / ND filter assembly. But the design rationale is similar -- apparently the iris can't be stopped down beyond f8 without causing diffraction problems on the sensor chip. So steps of ND filtration are added to provide the effective aperture control range that otherwise would be obtained simply by stopping down the iris to f16, without using internal ND filters.

Excellent find, Mike. I hadn't seen that document; it provides very useful information. It's an oldie, but a goodie!

Using the Google link below, you can search for terms in the text of patents -- something that isn't possible on the US Patent Office site.

Search terms such as "ND filter," "ND filter Sony" and "ND filter Canon" turn up many interesting results, both old and new, which give insight into the manufacturers' thinking, and quite a few specifics of the physical mechanisms and control schemes.

http://www.google.com/patents

Evan - I think you're seeing a two bladed iris inside the Sony - the top blade is an upside-down V and the bottom blade is a rightway-up V. This is much simpler and cheaper to produce than the nice 6 bladed iris as used on the VX, FX etc, but it does the job, albeit with less attractive highlights and flare when used into the light. Out of focus highlights are noticeably less attractive too.

The internal ND filtration of the PDX10, the HC1 etc is designed to stop the cameras working at any stop smaller than f/4, regardless of the focal length. Of course if it gets brighter than even the internal ND can soak, then smaller apertures are used - but this is seen as an emergency getUhome, as diffraction with 1"/3 chips becomes quite noticeable at f/5.6 and smaller - and especially so at the wide-angle end of the zoom.

Cameras with this undocumented internal ND often 'make up something the punter will believe' when 'display' is hit on tape replay. Panasonic are also guilty of this, displaying silly f/22 readouts on many of their cameras.

tom.

How does the internal ND filters work with external one
 

Hello again after some years,

I am using a HVR-A1 and would like to know, if anybody knows how the three (?) internal ND filkters work togehter with external ones. Has anybody used them in combination?

In addition, am I correct with the following assumption regarding the exposure steps of the A1?

f4: 0db/None ND
f4: 0db/ND2
f4: 0db/ND4
f4: 0db/ND8

Thanks,
Peter

I'm not sure if the A1 has separate ND filters - I would expect it to have a varying density filter so that the more it moves into the light path the more light is absorbed. I don't know though _ I haven't looked down into its lens.

So what happens is this. You're filming at f/2 (say) and it gets brighter. The iris closes to f/4. It gets brighter still and now the ND absorbs the light. If it gets brighter than a theoretical f/11 (with max ND in place) the iris will start to close again, or in some cases the shutter speed will shorten.

It's far better to do this yourself (film at 1/100th rather than the default 1/50th) if it's very bright and avoid the use of external ND filters altogether. They cause flare spots with such short focal lengths and reduce the hood's efficiency. Not good.

tom.

Thanks a lot Thom for you explanation and advice!

Another question is what will happen when the varying density filter work together with an IR filter or circular Pol filter I am also considering to use.

You plan to use an IR filter? Maybe you mean a UV? Whatever - the internal ND will make no difference at all - it's neutral as the name suggests. If you attach a polarisor that absorbs 1.5 stops, the internal ND will simply move to allow 1.5 more stops of light to the chips.

Before you buy the circular polarisor it's worth trying a linear polarisor. Much cheaper and will probably work just as well.

Re: How could I know at which f-stop The HDR-A1 is shooting?
 

I'm reading this thread getting on for 20 years after it was started !

The reason being I have just agreed to accept an HVR-A1E , as part of a bundle of bits and pieces as a swap for a PDW-F70 XDCAM deck ; I don't expect to get the stuff until after the holidays , whenever I next see my friend who has the stuff , but I thought I'd read up on the camera here .

Like the OP on this thread , I first shot moving pictures on film , although I can hardly call myself a cinematographer ; I just started out as a kid borrowing my dad's standard 8 Bolex , then later got a Minolta Super 8 .

When I was a little older I got some very secondhand U-Matic kit , before moving on to Video-8 , Hi-8 and eventually Mini-DV with a DCR-VX700 then a VX-1000 . Later , after the two smaller cameras had died , I got a JVC GY-DV500 and a second one , then a DSR500 , which at least shot in 16:9 natively .

I moved into HD with an HVR-V1E , again a used camera , chosen because it was both small enough to use for holidays and home use , but gave good enough results to use for work from time to time . A bit later I picked up a JVC GY-HD251 .

More recently , around 2 years ago now , I spotted a PDW-F350 on eBay for a very reasonable price , and having used the same camera at work , picked it up for my own interests , I then got the F70 deck to capture from , rather than using the camera . Just last year , after we upgraded to 4K at work , I was given the other PDW-F350 from there , along with the mint PDW-F70 from the edit suite ; hence my disposing of the one I already had .

To come right up to date , although I used to shoot weddings at weekends to make extra cash when I had the VX700 and 1000 , I hadn't done any in several years . Then last month a colleague at work asked if I knew anyone who might film his sister's wedding in April next year ; I said I didn't but that I'd be happy to do it as a favour .

I have done a couple of weddings with the V1E over the 10+ years I've had it , and know it to be OK , but wanted another 'small' camera to use alongside it , so bought the cheapest HVR-Z7E I could find on UK eBay about a week ago ;. On arrival I had to sort out a couple of small issues , but I'm happy with it now , and one of the deciding factors , besides I knew it would be capable in low light ( haven't yet seen the venue ) is that it uses the same batteries and accessories I already have for my V1E .

I didn't want to use my PDWs for the wedding as I know that in low light , if you put gain on they can get noisy , besides they are just a bit too big and heavy to lug around and have to set up quickly . While I have plenty of lighting I could take along , I don't want to go OTT , besides working by myself I have limited time for setup , and at most might just put in a Paglight set to wide beam and with diffuser to lift the faces a little if at all needed , and hopefully not .

Plan is to set the Z7 up on a tripod to capture the ceremony , shooting both on to tape and capturing continuously on my Firestore FS4 HD , and using the V1 handheld for guests arriving etc . I will have an ECM-MS2 stereo mic on the Z7 to capture ambience , this will go into my audio technica field mixer and back to the camera in stereo , whilst adding a single radio microphone down near the couple , panned centre to pick up the vows etc . While the other cameras will capture on board sound , I will only use the audio from the Z7 . The big advantage of my PDWs is that they have four channel audio , but I can mix the audio from the ceremony live to get a good recording .

Anyway , when my friend was going through stuff he had to swap for the deck , he mentioned he had about half a dozen A1Es , so I agreed to take one as long as it was in good working order , and he assured me at least two of the ones he has are . My thinking being that it is small enough to be hidden somewhere for a reverse angle shot of the vows , rings etc ( although I will try to place the Z7 on the tripod where it can also capture that ) , and since I have three Firestores , all can be left running to capture the full ceremony without missing anything .

Now that I'm reading up and learning about the A1 , I have found out a few things I hadn't considered about the camera - first it uses different batteries than the V1 and Z7 ; a nuisance but I will just make sure I get a few , besides I may be able to plug in and use mains power . The business about auto exposure is also a minor inconvenience , but it is very much going to be a 'C' camera and only used for a few cut-ins , as long as the image quality is not markedly inferior to the other two cameras .

From my perspective , the main benefit of the A1 is its small size , and there have been plenty of comments about its excellent picture quality .

I do appreciate all the dialogue in this thread about exposure control and display , but since it will only be used as a third camera , or for casual use if out hiking etc , then this won't matter . Both the V1 and Z7 display all parameters on their LCD displays , and the controls on the Z7 are especially nice ; I can even mount the Canon and Fuji lenses from my JVC onto it and have 'real' focus , zoom and iris rings , but the supplied Zeiss lens just works so nicely . I can also use my Manfrotto pan bar remote with the Z7 , as I have done with the V1 and the VX1000 before it , although I have a Canon zoom demand which I've used for years with my larger cameras .

As I was reading the thread , and all the discussion about aperture controls and alternatives , I don't think the V1 existed in 2006 , but it is quite compact , maybe a bit bigger than the A1 - I shall see when I get it . Taking size aside , and bearing in mind the €2700 cost of the A1 , I can't help wondering what a GY-HD100 series camcorder would have cost back then ? I'm sure it would have been more , but how much more ? Although very much a 'prosumer' product , it was very much engineered to be a compact camera for people used to using professional ENG type cameras , and possibly unique at the time ; the only let down being it was 'only' 720p rather than 1080i as the Sonys and Canons of the time were . I still like my GY-HD251 and can't bring myself to part with it .

I can fully appreciate the comments about aperture and shutter speed , having done photography as a hobby ( never had any formal training but I learned a lot in the camera club I went to as a boy ) before I ever shot even 8mm cine , and having had many 35mm SLRs , as well as medium format both TLR and SLR , then both APSC and 35mm DSLRs , I can also appreciate how much the sensor size influences the way the lens parameters affect DOF . I have four digital still cameras with the capability to shoot video , yet I very rarely ever do so . The main exception being my little Canon Powershot G11 , and that is only because it as my 'always with me' camera , just as my old Rollei 35S was back in the film days ; so the Canon gets used to photograph things or film occurrences that I just happen across . My three Pentax cameras K-01 , K-3 and K-1 are just used for photography , although the first , being a mirrorless camera just somewhat larger than the Canon , and with a larger sensor , is the one I tend to take on family outings , or to places where carrying a large SLR would be too conspicuous , so again it might be used to shoot the odd video clip .

I have almost come round in a circle since I got a Bolex H16 REX4 cine camera a couple of years ago , but have never yet got around to shooting any film on it ; it is a lovely thing with fully manual controls , variable frame rates ( which must also influence shutter speed ) , a fade/dissolve gadget that closes down or opens up the shutter angle and of course fully manual focus and aperture controls on the lenses , besides the three small primes I got with it , there is also a large zoom lens , which will no doubt be optically inferior , but perhaps much more convenient in use . I also have a couple of period Weston Cine meters , as well as my several Weston exposure meters for still photography , although I only use my Master V or Euro Master when shooting stills on my Bronica , which I don't often do these days . At some point , after I retire , I will get some film and begin to learn to use the camera .

The main reason I do not use still cameras to shoot video is that is just not what they were designed to do ; the form factor is all wrong , the controls are all wrong , they don't have proper audio inputs or controls - yet you see these people with Heath-Robinson cages and all sorts of contraptions bolted on to the point that they probably spent more than a proper digital cine camera would've cost , and they still struggle to carry and operate them . Many still cameras also have serious restrictions resulting from memory card storage , or sensors overheating and shutting down after so many minutes ( and not so very many minutes ) of operation , because they were just not designed for that purpose . When I see people trying to shoot video with still cameras , I just get a sense that they are making a virtue out of awkwardness !

So , it has been 18 or 19 years since this thread started , and 15 years since the last comments ; I wonder if any of the original posters will see this , and perhaps even reply ?