Firewire ports destroyed by Z1, also case with HC1/A1?
 

I saw a thread on another website which details the destruction of both cameras and computers when the Firewire cable was plugged in incorrectly. This is very worrisome. I was wondering that if the Z1 has this weakness, then does the HC1 (and/or A1) also has this weakness/problem? I've only connected my A1 to my computer once via Firewire, and not following the precautions listed in that thread, and luckily no problems, but I am worried about the future (since it didn't happen to their Z1 until after 2 months).

Did anyone get an addendum regarding this Firewire connection to their manual, either included when they bought the camera, or from a repair center after repairs/checkups were completed and the camera was returned?

Is there a link (perhaps a .pdf) with this addendum that I could read and print out?

Hi Alex. Please don't post links to threads at other video forums.

I've heard anecdotal evidence of dead firewire ports on the Z1 myself. In fact, I was running a rental Z1 at the "Texas Shootout" last weekend although we weren't using firewire during the shoot. When they went to capture footage the day after I left, Mike Curtis mentioned that the firewire port was blown in his blog (I didn't do it... I swear! ;-)

But I don't understand how voltage can be passed through the 4-pin interface on the camera. Perhaps it's a grounding or static issue? Or a bad cable? Elsewhere I saw someone suggest that the cable was inserted backwards. You'd really have to force it to make that happen.

I regularly hot-plug all my cameras (VX-2000, PDX-10 and Z1) and have never seen this problem - thankfully - but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to be extra cautious. Shutting the computer down every time you capture seems like a big pain however....

Oh, sorry about that. But, how can people read the info if I don't link to it? Should I instead, copy and paste the text from that thread here instead of linking?

No, it would violate copyright restrictions to copy content from other websites. The problem is that it fragments the discussion to cross reference between what people are saying at DVinfo and another website. With 20,000 DVinfo members I'd think that others have some experience to share on this topic. But if you want to participate in the existing discussion on another site then of course that's another option which is open to you.

It's fine to post links to tech notes from Sony, but please don't create links which are dependent on active threads at another forum. Thanks for your understanding.

Well, how about a recap in my own words of the main points that I feel are necessary to really begin to talk about this topic with any sort of coherency and substantiality? Of course I am also participating in the other forum's thread, but I feel talking about it here would not only increase awareness, but also increase the pool of people who would be able to contribute and answer/ask questions.

To me, this seems to be a serious problem that I doubt I am the only one worried about -- it seems quite limited to not be able to reference other sites. I can understand where this site comes from for not wanting to reference other sites, but there's got to be a way to still talk about the same topic, yes?

Alex, I think you've answered your own question: a recap in your own words is the best way to proceed. Serious forum admins, myself included, are usually annoyed by enthusiastic participants cross-posting between different communities. I know of one individual banned from a couple of sites because of his prolific cross-posting habit; and it would not be too far off the mark to imagine a site owner litigating over cross-posts that initially originated from his community (not me, I wouldn't do that, but I know of others who have considered it).

At any rate, don't worry about trying to increase awareness of a particular topic, because a large portion of this audience also reads the message boards of all those other sites anyway. In other words, they're *already* aware. If it's important enough, the news will get around on its own.

If you see a topic of interest on another forum, the best place to discuss it is... on that particular forum. If you don't want to do that, then a recap here in your own words is the next best thing.

Best Way to Kill a Firewire Port
 

Step to take:

1. while logging and capturing footage, unplug the cable from the computer.
2. The computer will give you an error message "firewire device not found"
3. Firewire port on the camera will probably be fried.

I was editing (way back when) in college when a girl did just that with our film society TRV900. No more firewire.

The next week, by doing the opposite, somebody else ruined the FW port on our Mac edit bay. Be careful, adn always turn off the camera before unplugging FW cables.

Take a firewire and hold one end in the palm of your hand and pass the other end in front of your TV and a static spark will shock you in the palm.

This is exactly how I fried my GL2 . The thing to do is never connect your camera first always connect the firewire to your computer first.

Never unplug from the computer with the camera still connected. I fried two firewire ports before I figured this out. Good Luck.

FireWire ilink 1394 advice from Sony
 

Hey,

Unfortunately, I have lots of experince killing firewire. One was an A1U. I also zapped an FX1 and a TRV11. All in one day!

I got a note from Sony Broadcast in NJ that said, in a nutshell 'Sony cameras are not hot-swappable. To insure you don't zap your camera, shut off the computer you are using and the camera. Plug the wire into the computer, then the camera and boot up the computer. After the computer is running you can turn on the already-connected camera.'

I wish I had done this three zapped cameras ago. See the thread I started on this topic here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...firewire+ilink

Sony broadcast was great to deal with, by the way. Much easier than the consumer division for the FX1.

All the best,

David

Why can't they make them hot swappable? I would have thought that was a feature that firewire would want to have.

The first cam I zapped was a Canon GL2.

I almost hate to say anything, but I have been "hot" plugging and un-plugging Sony camcorders for 6 years now and never had or heard of any issues until this.

My HC 1 has been plugged in to and unplugged from a powered up pc dozens of times while it was "on" and "off" in camera, memory, and tape mode. Done it camera first and camera last. I've never considered it an issue. Works great for me.

Don't know what to say...reckon I'll just go on with what I've been doing.

Personally, I think Sony did a fine job of building my camera.


Jamie

Well, of course there are reports of it being fine doing it any way. But it seems that the problem doesn't occur right away, it might be two months after using the camera, years later, or never. But I think if you don't want to risk firewire port damage, it's best to turn off everything before plugging the cable in despite how inconvenient this is.

Ditto
 

Ditto Jamie, never had a firewire problem. You do have to disconnect from Z1, FX1 if you want to change the settings, then plug back in.

I think it is a static electricity issue. When the cam is plugged up first and the other end comes in range of a static field the spark jumps thru the wire and zap it is all over but the crying.

It was years before I zapped my GL2 and about a month later that I zapped my Sony. That is when I discovered by accident that if you pass one end of a fire wire in front of the TV set it would shock you at the other end.

In the days of yore when Noah was a pup and yours truly a mere tott, I seem to recall that nobody hot plugged or unplugged anything, but took the time and trouble to use things called power switches first. They have a sound reason for being there.

It would seem that a culture of haste, unthoroughness and expediency may have now fully developed over a few generations of familiarity with powered devices and what was once exceptional has become commonplace practice.

It is possible that with speed and force, miniature outer shields and conductive pins could with wear and tear, eventually make contact when they shouldn't. So when that first tier of best practice, isolation of the power source is removed, so is one layer of safeguard.

We know of developing sequences of events which make aircraft fall out of the sky. Any one item in an event sequence might not of itself be significant but several collectively can spell disaster.

Okay, so its not lethal mains power we are talking about and it is just a camera with no living souls riding on it, but there is a value attached to the cost of repairs. Common sense.

This talk about sueing Sony. Take care Sony does not develop likewise thoughts. Their good name, whether it be justifiably so or not is coming under challenge.

It might be helpful for Sony to placard cautions against static electricity discharge damage. It isn't exactly unknown science and suppliers of delicate electronic components take great care in this regard.

But maybe a few non-threatening words to the company direct, not the local resellers, might help as it simply may be something that the real world imposes which did not raise its ugly head in tests. Maybe they will never learn about it except by trolling through forums such as this one.

After all, the donkey doctrine decrees, if it is humanly possible for humans to break something, humans will.

I have the HRD-HC1 HD camera from Sony. I've had it for about 6 months, and have only used it intermittently until this weekend. After filming about 30 minutes of interviews on the HC1 and another Sony (HC40), I dumped the video to my PC with the integrated 1394 on my ABS PC. I kept switching from one camera to the other, but only disconnecting at the camera. I did NOT power down anything before switching (didn't know I had to, as the manual didn't say anything about this).

After about 4 or 5 toggles between cameras, i noticed that the "HDV IN" icon on the LCD of the HC1 was flickering randomly - like there was a loose cable. The software (Pinnacle 10+) was also losing connection. I jiggled the cable a bit, and figured it was bad. Ran to BestBuy and bought a $39 replacement cable. It too didn't work. When I switched back to the HC40, it would not register with the PC (no XP dong-ding). I switched cables, then went to another PC. Nothing helped. My dad has a Sony TRV103 DV camera, so we tried it. It worked with both cables, on both PCs. I tried both cams again today on yet a third PC, and still no go.

Long and short of it is, that now neither my HC40 or HDR-HC1 will connect to any PC using any cable. The cameras seem to record and play fine internally, but I think I'm cooked. My HC40 is out of warranty. I called Sony on the HC1 (today - Sunday). They said their repair group could contact me tomorrow since they're closed today.

Once I get them fixed, I'm scared silly to reconnect to my PC. Thing is, I must have transfered hours (little bits at a time) over the last 6 months on this same PC without any problems. The fact that this PC killed TWO cameras in under 1 hour makes me sick. once they're fixed, I don't want to risk hooking them up again. This is so frustrating!!

Here's another one. I had my HC1 plugged into the front Firewire port (i-Link)on my XBR960 HDTV. I was in a stupid rush to go somewhere, and unplugged the cable from the TV first(not the camera) with out first disabeling The i-Link through the remote. Anyway I came back, and plugged in the cable again to the front input and a message said device not connected. It worked fine through the rear I-link connector. I tried my Z1 through the front, and got the same error message. Again the rear one worked fine. So now I suppose I must have fried the front i-Link connector. Lesson learned....don't rush....always ensure power is off to any connector first. Now for rushing, I get to assemble 2 friends plus myself to move my 194Lb. TV to a shop to get it fixed!! My wife's only comment was 'Oh good, now I can vaccuum under neath'.

If you look at the pin-out of the computer side of the 'firewire' you will see that pin one is connected to power. According to some pin-outs that I have seen it is 30 volts. I've seen others with 12 volts.

Whatever the actual voltage is, pulling the connector out from the computer while other end is still connected to the camera can cause this higher voltage to be shorted to a pin (probably pin three) that must not have such a voltage and will damage the camera.

I do 'hot swap' my camera all the time but only on the camera end and only with the computer end already connected. Never the other way around.

Do a 'Google' search for 'firewire pinout'.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com

Ditto what David Bourne said. I received the same message from Sony Service in CA in the form a leaflet they dropped in with the returned paperwork. My Z1U was returned for a repair to the viewfinder, and I've not yet experienced the firewire port problem but quite obviously, it is a weak spot on the cam that I'm mindful of. My $0.02 is that it is fragile and that if it's going to blow it's going to blow but nevertheless Sony is on record with the warning.

Is it possible to post the text from the warning? I'm curious about the wording, and why it isn't in the manual on 6 month old equipment.

I'll look for it. Out of town at the moment.

One easy way to avoid this is to use a Firewire card that doesn't provide power to any of the pins --- some notebook Firewire adapters do this, for example. I imagine there must be some desktop Firewire cards that don't provide power, which would be decently safe.

On page 77 of the FX1e manual Sony gives the following warning:

''Connect the i-LINK cable to the computer first, then to your camcorder. Connecting in the opposite order may cause static electricity to build up, resulting in a malfunction of your camcorder.''

Yes, but that same "may cause malfunction" term is used to warn users not to use the night-shot mode in "bright light" - or it too may cause "malfunction". Malfunction to me means it doesn't work the way you intended. Turn it off, correct the problem, and it will work. I think the correct verbage should be "WILL CAUSE DAMAGE REQUIRING SERVICE". And, instead of burying it on page 77, it should be listed right up front with the rest of the warnings. There are at least 10 other places (ahead of page 77) where the manual tells you to disconnect/reconnect the DV and USB cables - with NO mention of proper order. The only place it does that is on page 77.

FWIW, I got my camera back without any special notice from the repair center. I talked to the service tech from the Laredo repair location, and he said they've never experienced a fried firewire port on any of their test cameras. But, he said, they also dont' ever disconnect the firewire cable from the PC. His theory was that it was static electricity - either from fingers, or from the cable being plugged into the camera first.

THe camera was received on a Monday (afternoon) and was ready to be returned by the end of the same day. That tells me either a) this is a really simple $250 (labor) fix, or b) they have a lot of practice replacing these boards.

Below is the text of the leaflet insert that was included with my returned Sony Z1U.
*******************************************

"Improper i.Link connection procedures may cause permanent i.Link circuit failures. In a careless attempt to connect the i.Link cable, the cable is often in the incorrect position (wrong polarity). Even thought the cable cannot be fully connected in this situation, there is a chance that the DC voltage line comes into contact with the signal pin of the i.Link IC, thereby "burning" the i.Link circuit. Therefore, certain precautions must be made to ensure proper i.Link operations.

In order to prevent i.Link problems, please follow the procedure below to connect your DVCAM equipment to the PC or MAC.
1-First make sure both DVCAM unit and computer are turned off.
2- Connect the i.Link cable to the computer's i.Link terminal (!!!Check for the proper polarity of the cable and the i.Link terminal!!!) The connection should not have to be forced in.
3-Then connect the i.link cable to the DVCAM unit (!!!Again pay attention to the cable's polarity!!!)
4-Lastly power up the computer and allow it to completely boot up before turning on the DVCAM unit.

As the i.Link failure described above falls under the "abuse/misuse" clause of the product warranty, it is not covered by the Sony Warranty."

Wow, they don't pull punches. Since my HDR-HC1 was already outside the 90-day warranty, and I'd already paid the $250 flat repair fee, I guess they didn't feel it was warranted to put that note in with my repair. Thanks for posting though... Too bad they don't put that warning on page 1 of the manual.

I've used several cams over the years, mainly canons, rentals, and have folks bring in their sony's, JVC's, etc. to use as decks to capture their stuff for DVD, etc. I never unplug the cable on the PC side. I always ensure the camera is off before making it's connection, (in fact, I do this for all externally connected devices, i.e. hard-drives, etc. as well).

I agree, it's not a Sony issue, it's one of physics. If you have to constantly swap out firewire connected devices, then switchers are available. Of course, if your system or bad habits are prone to this more so than others, you may want to consider getting a deck, which is always connected, as a permament solution.

I personally killed two fx1 firewire ports. I wish I had know before to have everything off when pluggin in. I always plug computer first, camera second and the turn on the camera.

I will make sure to power off both the computer and camera, plug in the computer and then the camera.

I will post if they fail again.

Jon

Hey all,

Just wanted to add there's a warning that comes with the M10 HDV deck from Sony...Don't unplug and re-plug a firewire cable. It may blow out the port.

heath

I think my firewire's blown too and my warrantee's gone. Instead of spending 500 on repair I might spend an extra 500 and get the cheapest Sony HDV camera for about 1000. Will an NTSC Sony HDV camera play my Sony HDV PAL footage via firewire into my Apple G5?

I don't think so. Unless I'm very mistaken, the Z1 is the only camera with both PAL and NTSC capability. If you need PAL then you'd need to buy a PAL HC3 or HC1. But of course, then it wouldn't work with NTSC tapes. I know that some Sony camcorders will play PAL footage on the built-in LCD screens, but they won't send it out over firewire.

Boyd is right, only the Z1 can do 60i and 50i.

heath

It won't even play back 50i? Ah well...

This 'blown firewire' thing just happened to me on my FX1 about two months after its initial purchase. It's covered by warranty right?

I would think so. Find info on repair centers on Sony's website here: http://eservice.sony.com/webrma/web/index.do

Enter the model number as hdrfx1 and fill in the other info on the web form.

I know this doesn't help you guys, but for anyone considering the purchase of a camera, the level of service and support is higher for the Z1 because it comes from Sony's professional division. From what I've read (happily no personal experience yet :-) the turnaround time for repairs is much shorter from the pro division than the consumer division. Just another thing to keep in mind as you ponder the price difference between the Z1 and FX1. The pro cameras are serviced here: http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...eCenters.shtml

That's a good point. My Sony rep says it'll be about 3 weeks to a month from the time I send it to the time it gets to their nearest repair shop (in Texas!) to the time they get around to looking at it once recieving it, and finally return it and I won't be able to do without my camera for that period of time for--yeesh.

Sony FX1 service can be great.

One of our guys slipped and fell and dropped his FX1 and completely smashed it. I thought the repair would be as much as a new camera. Sony repair charged him for parts only and it was just shy of $500 in parts. Lucky for him they didn't charge him any labor and he had it back in two weeks.

I prefer the pro service, I had a guest at a wedding dump a drink on my camera and shorted it out. I had it back in 7 days. Luckly for me, the guest paid for the service :)

Jon

For some years now consumer PCs have shipped with ports designed to be hot plugged, such as USB and ethernet. As a result users expect 1394 to be hotpluggable. We constantly hot plug USB + enet at work. The manual for my camcorder had no warning about this issue, nor did any other firewire device I've bought. After reading this forum topic I see it ain't so.

Anyone know if the following sequence is safe?
i. touch PC case to de-static oneself
ii. Plug 1394 cable into PC, PC on.
iii. Plug 1394 into video device with device off
iv. power up

It sounds like owners of pro gear would do well to put antistatic mats under the PC + camera when connecting, touching the mat 1st.