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Sony owners should be grateful for the ability to map OIS on / off to a convenient user button... on the Canon XH camcorders the option is buried in the menu, which is a real nuisance.
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As frustrating as OIS can be on any camera when it bumps and jumps, as Chris puts it, I don't think it is a V1 limitation alone. Many cameras exhibit the same annoyances under certain conditions.
I appreciate the input about V1 limits and "loves", and the primer on OIS. Anyone else have input regarding this camera? I haven't really heard anyone comment on the hard disk option. I assume it works great. I've read other threads where users have experienced minor issues. Is there anything the V1 can accomplish that another can not? (I guess that would sort of be the opposite of V1 limitations..) Thanks everyone for your input. Joel |
joel, exactly what do you want it for? i'm not sure if it's been mentioned in this thread, which i read, but haven't the time to reread.
if you're doing something like weddings, then the simplest option is to hire one, shoot a wedding, and ditto the alternative cameras, then edit with your nle and compare end results. if you do more varied work, then there's a whole raft of considerations that come into play.... i started by thinking i wanted the z1 - but after hiring one found it too heavy and cumbersome for my style of camera-work (having used a pd170 previously). i then looked at the canon a1, but immediately discounted it due pretty much to the fact i have relatively small hands and operating the rocker was really uncomfortable, and that its build quality, at least on the one i tried out, seem a bit poor. i hired a v1 and, considering the alternatives, opted for it. i HATE the locked levels on one mic input, such a bloody stupid decision sony made, and as mentioned, ois can be annoying if i forget to switch it off when shooting on legs, otherwise, i'm very happy. if you have specific questions, i'm sure those here will be only too happy to answer... leslie |
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What do you mean by locked levels?
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I record live events uncompressed straight to hard disk via a switcher. That works great. Going portable is a completely different issue. I have yet to try a firestore type solution because it doesn't seem it improves the video quality itself. Maybe the HDMI solutions will be better. I don't have any more specific questions about the V1. But I am always looking for that person to weigh in with a "gotcha", that you won't know about until it is in your hands. The pros and cons of V1, vs. HVX vs. HD100 Vs A1 etc. etc., have definitely been discussed on this forum in great lengths. The OIS discussion came up because I asked people to weigh in on issues that come up while operating the V1. I think it was beneficial for me. That's all I'm after. Additional perspective. I am probably purchasing one this week. I haven't found one person that USES the V1, that has expressed regret for purchasing it. Every camera has challenges to work around, some limitation. And you usually don't see it until you unwrap it. I have a lot of respect for the folks that post on this forum. There is more usable info here than any other forum I visit. If someone ways in with bad info here at DVi, it will be set straight in a hurry. Again, thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread. |
Just a thought Joel. If you're serious about audio you might want some sort of iron written guarantee that you can swap-out the V1 for another camera if you're in any way dissatistfied with the audio quality, whether you use the inbuilt, or expensive external microphones. Some V1's have got through that are simply not up to scratch.
tom. |
Joel,
For walkie-talkie type stuff you will not have any issues with audio on the V1. If you were going to do serious music videos or other application needing high resolution audio then I would suggest a stand alone recorder. Audio recording is one place where compromises were made with HDV. This isn't a V1 issue but a HDV format issue. BUT unless you need CD quality or better it won't be a problem. I have the matching Sony hard drive and I absolutely LOVE this combo. I rarely put a tape in the V1 now. My only gripe is the missing tape icon that continuously flashes in the middle of the viewfinder when you are not shooting with a tape in the cam. |
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http://www.schneideroptics.com/centu...1u/hvr-v1u.htm Ryan Avery Regional Sales Representative Schneider Optics |
V1U problem
Sorry to return to OIS issue, but it is annoying me. I still had no opportunity to test other V1. But a cameraman witch works with V1 told me that he uses two cameras and neither of them shows this issues. He told me that he v heard a lot about of the OIS concerns, but his cameras don t jump the image when the steady is on, both on tripod and handheld. He is a cameraman and i m a journalist. Recently i started to do my job on my own and i started to record with my camera my own news and myself. I m a broadcast tv reporter. As long as my camera got in my hands i noticed the image jumping. It is not possible that he, a professional cameraman, didnt notice that, thought he had listened about the OIS problem. He think - and so do i - that some cameras have this problem and the majority units dont. Maybe some series cameras are defective, i dont know. I v tested a Z1U and didnt notice any jump. And, please, trust in my ability to easy detect the jump.
Is it normal or a defect? thats the question. |
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Twice days ago i did compare a generic .45 x and my century .65 x. It is incredible but the .65 was wider than .45x. |
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http://www.schneideroptics.com/ecomm...=1075&IID=2974 As to why the .45x from another manufacturer appears narrower than our .65x is interesting. It should be wider but magnification isn't the only determining factor as to wideness of a lens. There is also the degrees of field of view. I have seen .4x lenses that had only a 70 degree field of view, very narrow. Where as our .5x's can have up to 100 degrees field of view. It depends on barrel distortion. Ryan Avery Regional Sales Representative Schneider Optics |
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if you have one mic and choose to send it to ch 1 and 2 (via the switch), there is no options other than auto or manual for the signal. ie. you CANNOT set ch 1 to auto and seperate ch 2 to a manual level - you can do thia on every other 'pro' model from the 150 up. leslie |
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This is covered in the operator's manual under SteadyShot: "set to OFF when using a tripod." If it was a defect then it certainly would not be mentioned in the manual. There is a reason why some people notice it and some do not -- this is because the OIS jump happens when the SteadyShot Type is set to HARD. If the SteadyShot Type is set to Standard or Soft then the jump will not be as obvious or it may not happen at all. This is the same for the Z1 as well as the V1 -- if somebody says they do not see an OIS jump from a tripod, it's probably because they do not have HARD selected as the SteadyShot Type. Or as I mentioned above, they might have a lightweight tripod that is not very sturdy or a strong breeze on the camera might also affect it. But it is important to realize that there are different OIS settings for the V1 and Z1, and the choice of setting will affect the degree of jump when shooting from a tripod. As the manual recommends, it's always a good idea to simply turn off OIS when shooting from a tripod anyway. There is nothing wrong with your camera. |
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I don't believe I've read a better explaination of OIS and its use. Thanks Chris. |
Well, i got it.
But how do you explain my test with z1, in which no jump occur, even on hard setting? I put my V1 and Z1 side by side and did the same movements. How could a professional cameraman, who knows about this concern, have never noticed the jumps in his V1 cameras? And my user manual tell me to use steady all the time, even on tripod. Only on hard set you should turn it off, they say. My camera, as i said, jumps at all settings and i did not notice no difference between hard and soft settings in terms of image jumps. I think, maybe, we might not talking about the same problem and i almost convinced that i have a defective camera. You probably will say: well, go ahead, try to fix it and be happy. But i think the problem is not so easy and i m sure that it is not only my camera problem. Maybe this OIS system is not stable and has different behaviors in each camera. The fact is: many cameras dont show these jumps, like the z1 tested. And i m not sure that sony will fix my unit. That s because i still discuss this issue. Sorry if i bother anyone. |
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The best thing to do is put up a video of an example of the issue. I have seen the OIS jump on other cameras and don't consider the OIS to be problematic on my V1. Show it to us and we can judge if it is normal. If it is a problem, you may need to prove to Sony you have a faulty camera so you need to shoot a test video anyway.
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how could i do that? Is there any link? I d like so much.
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"Set On/Off to OFF when using a tripod..." |
Though not as bad as my old Canon XL1, when I leave the steadishot on while the V1u (or any camera) is on a tripod, I get weird "waves" in my video. Because it's trying to stabilize something that is already stable.
(And if you're video is shaky, and you're on Final Cut Pro 6, try Smoothcam.) heath |
Yes it is there. Sorry.
But they dont say "jump. In my opinion, if my problem is normal - and you all will see when i ulpload an image - , they had to put: CAUTION your unit is not defective, the image jumps, shakes, dance, moves their bones, but it is normal. |
Although Chris Hurd is adamant that your camera isn't faulty I find his confidence-from-afar difficult to accept. I rather like Chris Medico's thinking out the box, where he suggests that the longer zoom on the V1 means the settings (hard, normal etc) can be positioned at different levels as against the Z1 - which has far less telephoto reach.
Of course there's the possibility that Francis' camera has a fault, as all our cameras are a huge conglomeration of moving mechanical parts. To suggest that Francis' car is also perfect and normal because he kangaroo-hops it away from rest ignores the fact that the clutch may be the only faulty part. I do like Chris H's explanation of the Steadyshot principle and agree with every word he says. I can't side with Heath though, as Sony's OIS (not sure about Canon's interpretation as they add EIS to the OIS on the XL series) is simply waiting for input (i.e. camera movement) to start the OIS lenses moving. The 'wierd waves' are much more likely to be caused by electromagnetic interference - much discussed here. Francis, painful as it is, I do believe your V1 to be faulty. With the huge nombers sold and the vastly intricate electro-mechanical construction of the beast, some parts of some cameras will indeed fail. It's the law of the land. tom. |
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I say let's see some footage. I know an OIS jump when I see one and if Francis can show us some video then we'll all have a much more clear idea of his particular issue. |
Well, the images jumps link.
http://francisalexandrino.blip.tv/ there are lots of takes, in many conditions, with all steady levels thanks |
Francis,
As I said before: my V1E never shows this sort of jumps - no matter which OIS setting is on. On the other hand, we could look at it from the opposite viewpoint: perhaps my camera's OIS is not that "efficient" as yours, and this is the reason I really do not have to turn it off when on tripod? |
i dont think so
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So that little 'glurp' at the end of each shot where the image 'bounces back' was captured on tape after the camera had come to a complete stop Francis? Never seen anything like it on any of my seven Sony cameras - all with SSSS OIS, 3 with VAP and the remainder with vibrating internal elements.
It's quite unacceptable in my view, and the camera should simply be swapped out for a correctly working one. Here in the UK the Silver service warrenty wouldn't argue, they'd sure as hell want your camera for R & D appraisal. tom. |
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Sorry to disagree with Tom, but in my opinion the end-of-shot "bumps" in these clips are consistent with similar OIS bumps that I've seen before. I'll admit to having little experience with the Sony line, but am very familiar with this sort of thing on the Canon side and honestly it looks just as I expected it would for having OIS switched on at the tripod.
As for the handheld shots, image stabilization can work against you if the camera is held very steady. With a good handholding technique, stabilization may not even be necessary. I would avoid the "hard" setting for SteadyShot in any case. Having said that, I fully support Francis in his decision to return the camera but I'm not very optimistic about a replacement showing any difference -- but it's definitely worth a try. I still think the best solution is to simply do as the manual suggests by turning OIS off when shooting from a tripod. If Francis is committed to avoiding Sony in the future, then my advice for him is to avoid Canon as well, because those who insist on using OIS from a tripod despite the warnings not to, will find the end-of-shot "bumps" just as annoying with any Canon camcorder (and no it is not a defect, for the reasons I've explained in detail previously). |
i m so confused
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Hi, Francis . . .
I have two HVR-V1U's, and I haven't seen this "bump" issue you have with your cam and its OIS system. I DO however have a similar problem with a couple of HDR-HC1 camcorders. The bump or shimmer problem only occurs with the HC1's when the shutter speed is 1/60th or or less. At higher shutter speeds the EIS works very smoothly. I am planning to take the cameras in for service, but I'm not certain there is much that can be done. Try shooting the same test(s) with a high shutter speed -- 1/100th or 1/125th, for example. I'd be curious to see if the "bumps" are still persist when going to a higher shutter speed. I like to always shoot at 1/60th, so the issue with the HCI's is a real problem for me. Even through both systems use different types of stabilization, perhaps they could have similar issues when shooting a 1/50th (PAL) or 1/60th (NTSC), for example. Good luck! Ian PS: If you want to see more info. about the problems I've been having with my HC1's, check out the thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=50340 |
It jumps at any speed.
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The video that stands out is the hand held shot of you panning down the building. I have to say I've not been able to get my camera to have a jump like that when its handheld. Only when on a tripod. Right now my camera is out on a shoot so I can't do any testing to help you. I do hope you can get your camera repaired to your satisfaction. Also, GREAT guitar collection! I have a Fender Strat myself. ;) |
My opinion, for what it's worth, is that i think there's a good chance the individual camera in question is defective. Certainly a good enough chance to warrant a return to the supplier.
If you don't return it, then you'll always be wondering IF you're unit is defective in some way (possibly just a small way, but defective nevertheless) and so you are almost certain to be unhappy going forward if you do nothing. Reasons : 1) Other owners of the V1 report not seeing this same image problem in similar circumstances/setup 2) It even does it when handheld (which it shouldnt do IMO) and, again, others havent reported seeing this under handheld situations. Definitely i think the owner has to return the cam to the place it was purchased and get an exchange or certainly a full inspection/ or repair as necessary. Yes its a hassle / expense etc but if it's necessary, its necessary. Ultimately about the only way to be SURE that the unit is defective is to do a straight A to B comparison with another V1U - same setup, same subject, same time, same movement etc. Compare the results and then you should know if this is just a "V1's OIS implementation just does that" OR its a case of a faulty individual unit. I have had Sony cams with OIS (still do) and i have never seen anything as bad as that, under any circumstances (handheld, monopod and the occasional tripod). just my opinion on this. |
Wise point of view.
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* a litle question: Have you noticed jumps like that when your v1 is on tripod? |
I have NOT seen jumps like that in any camera I have used. OIS has caused a sort of drifting behavior on a few cameras and it can be annoying but I haven't seen that little hiccup at the end of a pan like in this video. The first time I had OIS problems I made it even worse by trying to compensate for the drift by counter movements. It just made it look like I was operating the camera drunk. If this was my camera, I would send it back as defective. I shot a wedding a couple of weeks ago with hard OIS the entire time while shooting from a monopod. I haven't reviewed every frame of video yet, but I haven't noticed any "jumps". I would describe normal OIS problems as a random drift like a drunk person stumbling and I haven't had any of those in normal shooting conditions. I still turn off OIS entirely if I'm on a tripod and zooming in.
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Sony are proud of their OIS (a joint developement with Canon). So proud of its transparency in fact that (as far as I know) they're the only manufacturer to light up a viewfinder icon warning that the OIS is *OFF*. All other manufacturers have a 'image stabiliser on' icon on screen.
Of all the myriad technology on board my Z1 you know the one piece that still has me gob-smacked with admiration? It is the OIS. It's fast, silent, accurate, available, cheap, effective. I've only got to switch it off for a moment and I can count my heart beats on screen. tom. |
if the jumps didnt occur, i could turn on steadyshot all the time. I think it is so boring turn on and off the OIS and some times - i work with daily hard news - it is impossible. I have to think about many things when i m working to waste my health worried if steady is on or off. Though the complaints about V1 and Z1 OIS, the z1 i tested was very stable and trusty. The owner, a friend of mine, shots all the time with steady on. He is specialized in surf shots and he does the best takes i v ever seem. He makes pans, tilts etc on tripod and i didnt notice any unwanted effect. On water, he shots waves pipes, he fixes his camera on his surfboard and go surfing, he puts his camera on its limit. He has got no complaints, only about the size and the weigh of Z1. He dreams of V1 cam. I want to test other V1 but i still had no opportunity.
As i said, the jump occur only in specific situations, in a few situations. Until now, it has happened only on bad takes or on tests that i did the specific movements forcing the image jump. But independent of that, i cannot work praying for god to got stable shots. And it tends to be more problematic because sometimes i have to pay a cameraman whenever i cant do the whole news process (i m a journalist, a TV reporter). One day it might mess my work. By other side, it will be very difficult and expensive to return the UNIT. First of all, i have to pay taxes to bring it back to Brazil. Second of all, i will need to rent a camera wile it is in USA. Sony deserved to be legally punished but i think there is nothing to do. In my country, the justice use to punish corporations in situations like that. But i have no choice and i will return it. Now i m convinced that i have a defective unit. I MUST THANKS A LOT YOU ALL TO WASTE YOUR TIME READING MY COMPLAINTS, WATCHING MY VIDEOS TESTS ETC. EACH OPINION HELP ME A LOT TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO. |
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