25p
 

Can anyone give me some advice about shooting in 25p on the V1. I've had the cam for about a year and have had no problems shooting 50i @ 1/50 or 1/25 but can't seem to work out how to shoot in 25p mode without experiencing the sort of inter frame stuttering on any movement/pan which I find unacceptable.

Any clues?

T

From what I understand, that is exactly what you are going to get when shooting 25p (or 24p in the US). I have read comments that you can learn how to shoot properly to avoid having those issues. I am not a fan of 24/25p myself, for that reason. I saw a demonstration video one time where a shooter was showing off his new steadycam, but he shot it in 24p. It stuttered and jerked all over the place. It definitely wasn't a good demonstration of steadycam's capabilities.

there seems to be some obsession with 25p 'emulating' a 'film' look. i've tried a few shoots in 25p, but all of which were '25p' friendly; interviews, locked-off outdoor stuff, etc.,

my conclusion was pretty straight forward. why bother?

i can shoot whatever in 50i and if i need progressive, render out to it.

i have yet to see a decent pan in 25p

leslie

Um, that's how it's *supposed* to look. That's why people use that mode. It's copying the worst aspects of film, which is apparently what some people like about it.

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. I'll stick with my 50i thanks!

Why is Sony's flavour of progressive HDV such an arsehole?

I produce a lot of web based video content and thought that a 25p Camera would be perfect for my needs.... a full resolution Progressive 1080x1440 image. Which it is...... but it seems impossible to shoot anything with ANY movement in the frame+ it looks like shit!

I never shoot 25p i always go 1080i 50i in the camera at a shutter speed of 100 and then output from FCP at pro res 1080i 25p. It seems to be more stable that way and you dont get the smeary 25p pictures that come from doing it in the camera.

Sony's no different than anyone else -- all progressive at very low frame rates will look that way.

You should consider a cam that does 720p60, like the one below from JVC.

JVC | GY-HD200U Professional HDV Camcorder Kit | GY-HD200CL17

Thanks Adam,

So my V1 is close to useless for progressive acquisition!

Anyone want to buy a pre-loved Sony HVR V1?

I'm not sure how you could get to that conclusion based on what everyone here has written. Progressive is what it is, and one brand isn't any different than another at the same frame rate.

What is it you are trying to accomplish, and why must it be progressive? Most people who think they need progressive have just heard somewhere that it's better, but don't really know anything about it and are disappointed when they finally try it.

Adam,

Perhaps I'm Ill informed!

I want to shoot in HDV for web. Without the need for deinterlacing in post and without having to censor the way that I shoot in order to avoid the nasty results I seem to be getting when shooting 108025p on my V1.

Is the solution simply a more expensive camera with ability to shoot at a higher frame rate? 50p?

Is it the cmos sensors that are the problem?

or is Prosumer HDV simply not a format suited to progressive acquisition?

Is a progressive image always 'softer' than an interlaced image?

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

T

You can't have both. You will have to deal with one or the other. I don't need any progressive delivery, but according to those who do and whom I trust, your best bet is shooting 50i and deinterlacing upon export.
Sort of. There is no 50p at 1080. There are plenty of cams that do 720/50p, like the Sony EX1 and EX3, as well as the one I linked to above. All of which are pretty pricey. But then there are cheap little crappy $200 Aipteks which also do 720/60p (and, I assume, 50p where you are).
No.
No.
No.
Yes.

Wrongly titled thread, I assume - is your problem with 25p or with shooting for the Web?

Anthony, you failed to realize that consumer computer displays (i.e. those that will display contents for the Web) are mostly (if not all) sync'ed @ 60Hz, and there's no way you can display 25p on 60Hz displays without sacrificing either motion (quote - "stuttering on any movement/pan which I find unacceptable") or resolution (frame blending to convert frame rates).

There are actually 2 distinct reasons for the judder:
- Shooting 25p, or 24p, or 30p (low temporal resolution),
- Much more severe one: shooting 25p or 24p for 60Hz displays (e.g. computer displays or NTSC SD) with 3:2 pulldown (6Hz judder or similar).

If your target is the Web, the problem does not lie in "Sony's flavour of progressive HDV", but in the PAL region where you are (we are) living. Two options for you:
1) Shoot 50i. The higher field rate gives you reasonable chances to downsample to 30p with okay quality. A bit blurry due to the conversion, but acceptable at YouTube/Vimeo player sizes.
2) Get another camcorder from the US, or an EX1 and such, and shoot 60i (or 30p if available). Well, it's not really 60i and 30p but rather 59.94 and 29.97. A few inconsequential percents compared to your 25p/50i problem.

Once that's done, get ready for another quest as you will run into other issues like codec / bandwidth settings, and whether the Internet browser is able to play Flash video fluidly - Firefox seems much more comfortable at this than IE. Another story though, and a few more trees to bark at.

anthony - what EXACTLY do you want to produce for the web?

why are you so obsessed with 25p?

i've been using a v1p since it came out - very profitably indeed. i always shoot 50i and then produce whatever is required thereafter, with clean pans, no motion artefacts, etc.,.

to shoot in progressive, is in my opinion a total waste of time now that you have such sophisticated nle's that in most cases will cleanly convert your 50i into anything you could possibly want....

as was suggested, if you're so keen on 25p, get a camera that is dedicated to progressive shooting - and good luck with with your pans, tracking shots, etc.,


leslie

I mainly produce video for the web and prefer to shoot 25p instead of interlaced. I seem to get more detail and sharper images with progressive. I also tend to shoot in a studio and never move the camera or subject very fast. For anything with fast motion I would instantly switch to interlaced.

- this confirms my suspicions that 25p is just no good at capturing med-fast motion when shooting..... it's just not a high enough frame rate to be useful for anything other than talking heads in a studio??

Ok im gonna have to disagree with you on this:) !
explore videos on exposure room and you will find countless films all filmed in 25p/24p and you will see lots of pans / movement without judder.
25p does look different and I wouldnt use it for sports but its great for lots of other things/ faster to edit with and easy to convert to 24p( if you want to).
Yes you have to consider panning speeds as you would if you were using film but to say that its only good for talking heads is incorrect and for me its always my prefered choice.
I think I may be right in saying stillmotion always film in 24p(please correct me if wrong) and their stuff is fantastic and widely believed to be among the top wedding film companies.
cheers john

I would suggest doing some tests and outputting to web/computer formats and to DVD and see if you really notice a difference between 25p and 50i. I did, and prefer that little extra detail in 25p.

I think some of the problem with motion artifacts is due to the HDV codec, and this naturally affects the interlaced stuff as well.

I was associated with a music video shot on RED and it was shot in 24p and I can see the same types of motion artifacts and that didn't have anything to do with the HDV codec.

That's interesting!

Anyway, before I bought the V1 more than a year ago, I read through all the pro and cons of HDV vs. DV, CMOS vs. CCD, 25p vs 50i, Sony vs. Canon vs. Panasonic, blondes vs. brunettes, etc. I knew I was buying the lowest rung of the "pro" cameras and knew I would have to live with certain limitations. Since then I have been pleasantly surprised at the quality of the video I can pull out of the V1 and the camera has paid for itself many times over while shooting almost exclusively 25p. And I never had a client complain about motion artifacts.

So, I wouldn't call the 25p of the V1 useless. Its just another option V1 users have to adapt their video to certain situations. I am specializing in shooting video for the web, and the 25p gives me better results for that use. If I want to shoot video for a DVD product, I switch to 50i. The point is, why limit ourselves and use just 1 format?

As has been said, Progressive is for those who want to achieve more of a 'film' look. Here is the trailer for a film that my friend is making shot with the HVR-V1 in 25P. Does the job :)
YouTube - Elindil's Secret Teaser