I think because it does a 2:3 pulldown like the DVX100, it puts the 24p signal into a 60i stream (remove the pulldown, you get 24p). So you should be able to use the M25, M10 and M15 without any problems (60i, of course).

heath

At the press event all the V1's were on Sony tripods with remotes on the handles. I like Sony products, but those tripods appeared to be strictly consumer quality. They seemed pretty wobbly with plastic parts. Personally I wouldn't have any interest in them.

Check out our Tripod Forum here and post your questions:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=42

heath

Thanks again for the input. I guess I won't get a Sony tripod. Once again it has been confirmed that there are better manufacturers to go with. I have been keeping my eye on the tripod forum, I just wanted some advice from the V1U buyers :)

Quick question on resolution again if you don't mind.

It is still 1080i, yet captures progressively at 24p. It is not 1080p (even though the sensors capture as such) because it gets downsampled to 1440x1080 (still progressive though, and 24p).

So essentially, it's not 1080i even. If I shoot in 24p there is no interlacing whatsoever... I guess the resolution lies somewhere in the middle? Somewhere between 720p and 1080p?

I'm sure someone will quickly correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the HDV spec includes 1920x1080 at all, only anamorphic 1440x1080 which gets stretched on playback.

Not exactly. It sounds like it works like the HVX does, in that it's scanning a progressive signal off the chip at all times, so it probably samples 1080/60p. Then that 60p signal gets split into fields to become 1080/60i (if your shooting mode is 1080/60i).

Then, apparently, the chip is re-clockable so that it can also scan the chip at 1080/24p and 1080/30p.

All those signals get RECORDED in a 1080/60i data stream.

Every HD format in common use does the same thing though. HDCAM, DVCPRO-HD, and HDV all downsample to 1440x1080 (or, in DV100's case, 1280x1080 in 60Hz modes) before recording.

Not in the original scans, no. But in the recording, yes. The footage gets laid down on tape (or to hard disk, or HDMI or analog output) as 60 fields, not 24 frames. So it undergoes a 3:2 pulldown process, where each frame is recorded to two or three fields.

There's nothing wrong with that, the HVX does its 1080/24p mode the same way. And Canon does its 1080/24F mode the same way on HD-SDI or analog output; only difference is that Canon records to tape or firewire in straight 24p mode, not using pulldown. But for analog or HD-SDI output it has 2:3 pulldown in the signal.

Again, it's no big deal. It's the exact same thing that the DVX, XL2, SDX900, SPX800, DSR450WS, and all 24P standard-def camcorders do -- they all record 24p within a 60i data stream. The HVX 1080/24p mode and the V1U 1080/24p mode do the same thing in high-def but it's fundamentally the same process.

Your NLE will eventually (likely) be modified so it can extract the 24 frames out of the 60i sequence. Apple's updating FCP to do that for HVX footage, and there was mention of 1080/24p HDV in one of the "easy setup" listings so it may already have that capability for the Sony (or, that may instead be for the Canon, we won't likely know until 5.1.2 ships).

You are correct.

Very interesting. Thanks everyone.

Yeah, I didn't feel as though there was a drawback really. I was just trying to understand how it worked and to ensure I wasn't wrong on crucial details. Just wondering though, is it any better if the NLE ends up retrieving the 24P from the 60i signal rather than just processing it at 60i? It shouldn't change the look and feel as you said, it will simply do the transfer without the pulldown.

I guess this means a slight increase in quality? I'm sure it would have to be a very slight difference.

That's interesting to know about DVCProHD and HDCAM. I thought 1440x1080 was a HDV limitation and not something that plagued the other HD formats.

So when filmmakers output to an HD master, there isn't really a resolution conversion/interpolation then? It's just a physical format that changes and maybe color spacing? Typically what format do filmmakers export their HDV projects in if they are submitting to festivals. Is it typically DVCProHD?

Most fesitvals seem to want HDCAM IF they can cope with HD at all.
No big drama, I think many post houses are equiped or soon will be to dub HDV to HDCAM.

Yes, there are several advantages. The first of which is, when working with the native frames, your overall workflow will be quicker and will take up less space.

Second, any titles or graphics or transitions you render will look "right" and won't end up with any sort of split-field situation. When working in a 24p timeline your graphics and titles will be rendered as 24p and will be properly "fixed" to the frames, whereas if you're on a 60i timeline your graphics will be created and rendered at 60i, and they won't flow the same as the rest of the image does.

Third, if you're mastering out to 24p (such as for DVD) it's so much easier/cleaner/nicer to do it from a 24p source.

Fourth, it's possible to get "off-cadence" when editing 24p in a 60i timeline; i.e., there's a specific pattern of odd/even that should be observed, but if you do a cut inbetween an odd/even pair you could end up throwing the cadence off, which would make it difficult or impossible to remove the pulldown later if you decide you need it.

Fifth, a transfer to film is easier, cleaner, and higher quality if going from a 24p source than from a telecine'd version of that same source, especially if the cadence is interrupted anywhere in the program.

Sixth, a transfer to PAL will be more consistent and probably result in notably higher quality if done from a 24p source rather than from a telecine'd 60i source.

It's so much more preferable to edit 24p as 24p. There are lots of reasons why every major NLE now offers 24p timelines in SD, and some also offer it in HD. Full 1080/24p support including 2:3 pulldown removal is presumed to be coming; Apple's already shown that they'll do it, EDIUS already does it for DVCPRO-HD and if they don't have it for HDV yet I'm sure they'll have it quickly. I believe CineForm will also remove out the pulldown, since CineFrame 24 is basically a 2:3 pulldown system as it's recorded.
Changing between formats involves an uncompression/recompression cycle at the bare minimum, and usually a color space conversion too. DVCPRO-HD is 4:2:2, HDCAM is 3:1:1, HDV is 4:2:0 so there'll be some color space conversion going on. And it also depends on how the transfer is done; if it's through HD-SDI it may mean an up-rez of 1440 up to 1920 for HD-SDI transfer, and then the deck will scale back to 1440 for recording.

With that said, it always looks great and is nothing to really worry about.

Great posts, Barry!

Recording a progressive frame as two fields is suboptimal. It throws away the redundancy between the fields away and pushes data up the frequency scale where it is more likely to be lost during quantization than with the encoding of a full frame. Worse picture quality for a given bitrate.

24p stored as 2:3 in 60i may or may not waste significant additional data, it depends how it is implimented.

I wouldn't say there is 'nothing' wrong with it, it can be improved. Given the encoding chipsets are probably not capable of encoding a full frame currently, this is an acceptable state of affairs.

Yes, great posts indeed. Thank you for clarifying things it all for me!

One more question. Is this 2:3 process different from 3:2 pulldown? Or is it just a different way of writing it? Or are they actually the opposite of each other.

This is the first I've seen it written as 2:3 pulldown, all though I'm sure you guys all know what you're talking to... so maybe just point me to a good guide :)

Thats a question I am shaky on answering, I think by convention one may refer to the creation of interlaced footage and other to the recreation of the original progressive frames, but I will add that it can get worse depending on the application.

Some analog recording formats are 2:2:3:3 owing to the preservation of complete frames within the stream.

I thought the V1U was the first camcorder at this price level to do 1080/24p...Does tghe HVX actually do 1080/24p? and if so, whats all the fuss then about the V1U?

Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I am new to all of this!

Hi Ethan, it's not a stupid question. Welcome to DV Info Net.

Yes the Panasonic HVX200 does 1080p24, but it's a different kind of HD camcorder. It records HD video in the DVCPRO HD format using flash media, not tape.

The V1U is not the first camcorder at this price level to do 1080p24. The Canon XH A1 costs about the same money and was introduced about the same time, and before that, we had the Canon XL H1, for a lot more money (and please, no pointless arguments about whether it's Frame mode or progressive -- all that counts is that the video coming out of all these camcorders is 24p).

The fuss about the V1U is that it is an amazing HDV camcorder with a highly innovative feature set (with HDMI output, for one example). But, like any other camcorder, it's just a set of tools. The real magic is, what can you build with this great set of tools. That's what all the fuss is about.

V1 First Cam at Price Range to do 24P
 

Ethan,

It's all in marketing. The V1 is a grand cheaper than the HVX 200, so hence the low price claim. The V1 does true progressive 1080 24P, so hence that claim; although, as Chris said, 24P and 24F (Canon XH series, XL-H1) are basically the same animal.

Other marketing ploys of the camera are 1080 60p scanning: You will never see this because it is quickly turned into 1080 60i (interlaced). 4:2:2 color: You can only take this live. Unless you use a solution to record either the component or HDMI outputs (not practical for field or portable use). For firewire using its hard drive and record to tape, it's all ready converted to HDV (1440 x 1080i 4:2:0 [less color information] @ 25mb/s). Thus, no matter the marketing, the camera's image is no better than other professional under 10k HD cameras, with the exception of certain characteristics like Sony's colors tend to be richer and more red than cannon cameras.

However, marketing or not, think about it...A professional camera producing high definition video for under 5K. That was unheard of a year ago. The V1 produces stunning color-rich images. The only drawbacks: no variable frame, no 720p, and, of course, the HDV codec - highly compressed video and audio.

John

Do not overlook that you can hook the V1 into the BMD Intensity card and record using the CF DI in 4:2:2. Of course this is not the only camera that can do that, any HDV camera with HDMI can do the same.

This does not gain gain you anything coming off tape, only recording live, so you'll be tethered to a PC. Still you can run HDMI a fair distance.

As said before, these are remarkably cheap options that were unheard of until recently. Probably the biggest problem now having so many choices is instead of enjoying the abundance of riches we argue over which is the best.

The HVX also upsamples in both vertical and horizontal, so the image is quite a bit softer than in it's native 720p mode. Panasonic was the first to do true 24p at 1080 in a budget camcorder, Sony was the first to do it really well. The Canon 24f isn't "true" 24p, but that's more market term than it is rational discussion; one can't tell the difference, and at the end of the day it's about the visuals, not the math.

The HVX 200's 1080 setting is called 1080i 24p and 30p.

heath

An excellent point, Bob -- and an embarrassing truth as well. Hopefully we can steer more toward talking about what we're actually doing with this technology instead of debating superlatives.

Use what works for you; I love the Z1u and V1u and the DVX100a.

heath