Can the V1U record in HDV via HDMI or video input?
 

Can the V1U record in HDV via HDMI or video input?

For example, can I take the HDMI, component, or
composite video output from a high-def DVR(DirecTV)
and feed the signal to the V1U?

This may seem silly, but there's currently no way to
archive the programs I recorded in high definition on the
DVR. Until the Blu-ray or HD-DVD recorders come out,
this is the easiest method I can think of for archiving those
programs.

None of the HDV camcorders or decks has any sort of high-def input (other than firewire).

No. HDMI on these cams is limited to output only. It'll be a while til you'll see input to decks/cams, particularly in light of HDCP.

This is what you will need. Of course there is the Content Protection flag you'll likely have to contend with.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/

What is the content protection flag on HDMI output?

This will explain it far better than I can. ;)

http://www.hdmi.org/consumer/faq.asp#content_protection

I wonder if the BlackMagic Intensity supports it.

Quote from the website:

The HDMI standard can include copy protected encryption, such as DVD players. The Intensity card therefore will NOT capture from copy protected HDMI sources. Always confirm copyright ownership before capture or distribution of content. Intensity media file formats are fully compatible with DeckLink and Multibridge capture cards.

I'm not familiar with sending HDMI into a PC. The only thing that I do is plug the HDMI into my HDTV for watching the stuff I recorded. :) That's live content streamed from my HD DVR into the TV.

If I hook up the V1U and a PC via HDMI, will the recorded contents on the tape be uploaded to the PC in real time? (as in 1 hour of tape taking 1 hour to upload)

As long as I'm asking... isn't the video shot by the V1U recorded as HDV on the tape, therefore it's already compressed? How does outputting it via HDMI make it uncompressed, or does it just mean the video on the tape is decompressed inside the V1U?

Thanks... sorry if I don't make any sense... I'm quite confused now :D

If the feed from the HDMI is live, then the signal is sent prior to compression to tape. If you are thinking of playing back a pre-recorded tape via HDMI, then the video is already compressed. Hope that makes sense.

Todd

Just to make sure I understand this... :)

If I use the V1U and record a video in HDV on the tape, the contents on the tapes will be compressed. The contents will be decompressed before it comes out of the V1U's HDMI. Is this right? :)

Assuming that's the case, what's the point of using the Intensity card, other than in a live capture situation?

Thanks!

Live capture is indeed the interest (unless you have a HD TiVo you are trying to archive).

The issue is with the re-sampling of the video before it goes onto tape. HDV resolution is 1440x1080. If you record LIVE and direct to the PC via HDMI you bypass the tape compression and you get 1920x1080 with a color space of 4:2:2. Once it goes onto tape you gain nothing over 1394.

The data is real time only regardless of the transport.

Correct. It's for live capture directly from the sensors. This would benefit in areas such as green screen or high quality capture for film, where you need better than HDV quality. This would only work in studio or fixed setups as you would be tethered (for this device) to a workstation. A poor mans or low budget solution to not having HDSDI.

I understand that HDMI has a cable limit and may be too short for even a cable wrangler and cart situation (unless you strap both yourself and the workstation to the mobile platform -anything goes). However you can go out via component into an HDMI adaptor for longer runs. That may benefit if your on rails or doing some short follow, etc.

The card also come with mac software that will allow you to switch between two cards and two cams for live events. That would solve having the firewire delay, and have high rez video feeds as well. Exciting stuff.

I'm definetely getting one of these and will give it a try.

What would be cool would be if you could hook up the DR60 hard drive unit
to the V1 via HDMI and capture the un compressed HDV to the DR60 real
time... oh ye baby, talk about sexy...

Hey sony, you know you can do it... just put the HDMI connector on the DR60
and let us record realtime ....

The data-rate would be too high for a single notebook HD. You'd need an array to make it work. The camera would wind up weighing about 50lbs : )

The point is, most folks who'll take advantage of this will be either locked off or rigged, or require some form of wrangling or assistance. For simple interviews, run and gun, reality shows and straight cuts, HDV should suffice. It's just nice to have direct access to the raw data.

For me, I could afford SDI, but cannot justify the added exspense. However, for the occasional green screen work, and/or rare occasions that warrant such quality, to have it with existing equipment for the mere price of a $50 cable and $300 capture card. That's easily justified.

Does an HDMI to Firewire converter exist? I have a Sony HVR-M25U and it can only record HDV off firewire. I'd like to be able to do this without going through a computer.

Are you trying to dub from the cam to the deck without a computer? You should be able to do that now with just the right cable.

Chris

Couple of things, I talked with the Blackmagic folks and there are HDMI cables up to about 60 feet or so and they agreed that long runs need quality cables, and these cables are not cheap at this point. I think prices will plunge when people start to want to run from HD dvd players etc to projectors or displays in larger rooms.

In addition to the component solution, Intelix has a HDMI over Cat5 system that might be interesting.

One thing that people might miss that HDMI input and the Blackmagic solution offers is that there is real time monitoring of the HDMI feed. HDV via firewire to the DVrack as many people have stated is too delayed

For simple live switching I am looking at a solution where the basic monitoring is done via standard SD displays, and the final selected feeds are viewed on a HD display, Means running more cables, but the cost of multiple HDMI displays is high at this point.

Sharyn

Thanks Sharyn, long HDMI cables may solve issues in the future. Being able to hook via component won't limit me to either HC3 or the V1U.

I didn't know about the live monitoring, forgot to ask and will look into that further. Makes sense, and yes DVRack is not the answer for live.

Why not just plug in firewire to the deck?

The confusion seems to be of HDMI vs HDV. That HDV has compressed video and audio and a smaller color space than HDMI. That recording HDMI through a card like the BM Intensity will allow more options in post.

One upon a time someone was going to post HDV and analog/HD-SDI/HDMI output from the same camera for comparison. Has anyone done this?

But that deck is HDV. You'd gain absolutely nothing by converting the HDMI output into HDV, vs. just recording the camera's HDV output...

Does anyone know what the data rate will be from the HDMI output of the V1? I know the XL H1 is running at 1.5 gigabytes per second...

Also, I noticed the Intensity card does not capture at 1080p (according to their website). That seems to defeat the beauty of HDMI output from this camera if your goal is progressive images. Am I missing something on their website that deals with progressive capture at 1080?

Also, just for laughs... some Sony guys at DV Expo claimed no 4:2:2 sampling via HDMI. Others said yes to 4:2:2...

Stuart

4.96 Gbps.
The maximum pixel clock rate is 165MHz and each of the 3 TMDS video streams carries 10 bits. Therefore the aggregate data rate is 3 x 10 x 165MHz = 4.96Gbps.

625 Megabytes per second.. Fastest array on my Macpro is 500 MB per second. Need dual arrays.. :-)

I've got a handful of HD sources that I need to archive. I have HD XDCAM that will work, but it requires a disc that costs about the same as a 184 DVCAM tape and only holds 2 hours of video. It would be wonderful if I could find a way to archive in HDV with my HVR-M25U putting 4 1/2 hours of footage on one tape for the same cost. It would save me a ton of money, of course that's why Sony won't allow it, tape stock is where the real money is made.

Time...

The way HDV editing works right now is that no matter what we have to reencode the timeline to a HDV file in order to send it to the camera/deck. This takes time even on a fast system.

Many NLE's now have an option for some type of uncompressed output through a 3rd party hardware card or other device. With these devices we can view what we are editing in realtime on our HDTV's or SDTV's.

Since the entire timeline has to be reencoded anyways why not have a way to use these cheap hardware cards to send out your HDV non rendered timeline through component/SDI/HDMI and use the deck to encode in realtime?

Even if you had a superfast 16 core system you will still have to render your timeline to HDV which means time. Maybe a 60 minute timeline will only take 30 minutes with 16 cores but it still is not realtime. Even if that 60 minute timeline takes 5 minutes it still isn't realtime. It is going to take a few years yet before we get to the point of encoding a HDV timeline in 5 minutes or even 30 minutes. With the time it takes to encode you still have to add the 60 minutes it takes to actually record the tape.

With letting the deck do the encoding we get to use a dedicated hardware chip that was designed for realtime HDV encoding. The 60 minute timeline will only take 60 minutes to record to tape. On some systems you may not even have to render any of the effects.

HDMI is nice because it is cheaper then SDI but is perfect digital compared to component. HDMI also has copy protection so bad people wouldn't be able to use it to record HDTV programs off of cable. I can kind of see the lack of trust in wanting to give us a deck that can record HD component since there isn't any copy protection but with HDMI there should be very little concern.

Many of our editing systems for a few years yet are going to need many many hours to record video back to tape and it sure would be nice if we could have a option to speed this up and make editing fun again. Just when we all got used to realtime editing we all take a few steps backwards again and have to render our entire timelines. If the argument is that tape is going out then why sell us HDV decks in the first place? Clearly we will be using HDV tapes for a little while yet so why not make the decks more usefull for the future.

Many good points. My theory is that they aren't primarily concerned with usability or customer satisfaction at this point in the SD-HD transition but are doing things with business strategy in mind. What ever they implement at this point is crucial to the success of the business way down the line. For example, we purchase a Betacam SP deck 15 years ago. How many new decks have we bought since then? Zero, how much money have we spent on tape? I don't even want to see that number. I think they would prefer you to get comfortable with the format that is going to around for the long haul to develop a loyalty to it.