I wish there was an easy answer to that one but until everything goes progressive somehow I don't think we're going to see a solution. Consummers expect things to be Plug 'n Play but even with the most intelligent displays trying to work out how to display what they're being fed they would potentially be getting video that's interlaced for a few frames and then progressive etc. With playback from DVDs the problem should be solveable but OTA and cable signals could and will contain anything.

Last night I watched a video game on the PS3 hooked up to the latest Sony Full HD TV of monsterous proportions. The fine detail in the game had line twitter.

Since the Sony's advice to the R50 V1 users of turning down sharpness to 3 is not only very superficial and non-technical, but also uneffective (there is still some twitter of fine, contrasty, horizontal lines) - I went all the way today and shot a couple of scenes with sharpness at 0 (zero). I have also set everything for the most "filmic" look possible (cinegamma 2, cinecolour etc). The result is a very pleasing, filmic look - with still enough resolution to call it HD!

But of course Sony cannot demand the V1E/P users to use the lowest sharpness possible in order to create video that is watchable not only with a computer software (where de-interlacing can be switched off, thus eliminating line twitter even with sharpness as high as 9 and above), but also from the camera itself or a Blu-Ray/HD DVD connected with HDMI/Component to a HDTV. I can't imagine Sony is not aware of this fact, so if they are still selling the V1 in Europe as a true progressive camcorder, they must have some solution up the sleeve. So far however, the only thing they have to say is:

“Whilst the progressive shooting capability may not be needed by all users, those who want to see the true film like quality that is capable from this camera should use a progressive monitor.”

(the above is an excerpt from this article: http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/Show...=1171641886621)

What do you mean by that, Bob? Do you think our 25PsF will play all right from a BD or HD DVD "as is" within 1080/50i, or shall we convert it to 24p the way you showed is possible with Vegas? Frankly, my clips converted to 24p behave exactly like the 25PsF original when played with VLC, i.e. they twitter like hell when bobbing is truned on. So, unless a HDTV recognize them as progressive when played from a BD/HD player, I still don't see a clear solution...

I peeked to the Canon XH forum, and there is this post in the presets thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....3&postcount=37

It proves my point that the A1 can indeed produce an image similar to the Sony's in sharpness and colour vividity, but only with its sharpness and colour gain taken to the very limits. I wish I had shot my garage with similar settings; wonder if aliasing would be visible (perhaps not twittering as the v-rez of the Canon is still lower, but some mosquito noise)?

OK guys, this thread has provided great help in understanding the V1E/P progressive mode pecularities, once again thanks to the main participants.

However, before I make my final decision, a quick but important question to any PAL version users out there: with the recommended by Sony sharpness at 3, is your component/HDMI output on a full HD display completely twitter free?

Because mine is not; even with sharpness at zero!

I'd appreciate all feedback; TIA

I would say mine is completely "twitter" free at 3, and usable at least to 5-7.
Btw. I also managed to get my clips burnt on an HD-DVD (using stnd DVD, see the other thread). Pls. tell us which cam did you ended up choosing ?

I'll soon be changing my signature - then you will know:)

In the meantime I can tell you that (at least in my unit) there is still some twitter even with sharpness at zero. Also, I learned from Manfrotto that the MN523Pro lanc controller that used to work just fine with the original V1E (i.e. before the fix) doesn't wotk with the "fixed" V1E's (it switches the camera off after several seconds). So, yet another problem to solve...

Too bad. Luckily I don't have any lanc controller, just the normal plain tripod.
But this means Sony have really changed somethig in the SW since you did not have this problem before, i.e. they did not only change some filter settings as speculated here somewhere?

Bob's comment suggests the answer to your question "with the recommended by Sony sharpness at 3, is your component/HDMI output on a full HD display completely twitter free? Because mine is not; even with sharpness at zero!"

Twitter has a way of showing-up when ever the source has very high V rez plus very thin lines. The solution is to pre-filter before recording or in post. Sony's not filtering -- which perhaps it should on the V1E. Perhaps an optical anti-aliasing filter could be added.

PIOTR -- you might want to go to dvfilm.com and download DVfilm Maker. Not only does it deinterlace and optionally add grain -- it has a twitter filter!

BOB -- did you ever actually record 24 with 2-3 pulldown added back to the camcorder?

PIOTR -- did you ever actually record 1080i50 from a 25p Timeline back to the V1E?

Steve

Yes I PTT'ed a 25p timeline as 1080i, but did watch it through component/HDMI yet. Did you read Timo's comment about the Toshiba HDTV not showing any line twitter in his V1E's 25PsF?

Just recorded 24p back to a M15U deck, no problems. Captured it back with Pulldown Removal Enabled and got back 23.976. Note that I had to start from a HDV 23.976 project and PTT from that T/L, for some reason the VCR did not like the 60i clip I posted previously. Still no harm done, as it can be done.

To my knowledge Sony haven't changed anything in the LANC. I use LANC daily, and while I don't have a Manfrotto, I've had the V1 on several 3rd party LANCs and no change/differences of any kind. Just used the newer Canon LANC yesterday, and all features worked as expected.
LANC is a protocol, it's not something they're going to be messing with.

[QUOTE=Piotr Wozniacki;627765]That's what I've always done. I only meant that while it's easy with Premiere, my Vegas 7.0d cannot export a 1080/25p MPEG-2 by just changing the frame rate in the 1080/24p "Blue Print" template; I'll try to go through advanced video settings in order to make it work as soon as I have captured 25p material from the "fixed" V1E that I've just got an hour ago.

I just use the 1080/50i set to progressive and it produces a playable M2t that is progressive. I play it in VLC as progressive with no problems. I did one test with median filter in Vegas just to tidy up some anti-aliasing, did a good job but took a long time to render.I don't have any software to make a HD-DVD, but I would say there should not be a problem playing in a full progressive setup as the M2t appears compatible.

Since you can't record 25p to your V1E, since BD doesn't support 25p, and the Toshiba HD DVD player doesn't yet support 25p playback -- there's not a big need to export 25p. (Unless you are going to film.)

Likewise for a 24p timeline. You can't record 24p to your V1E, the low-cost BD creation software may not yet support 24p; and the HD DVD creation may not yet support 24p -- there's not a big need to export 24p. (Unless you are going to film.)

Did you find difference between setting the output file to Progressive or Upper Field interlace?

If you mean was there any other differences than just setting progressive, no. But I did notice in the advanced settings that some of the Pal settings did not automatically display and you had to set them manually, and trying to tweak the advanced settings to achieve "better" results was a waste of time.
The interesting fact I really wanted to know was just putting M2t files on DVD and playing them via PlayStation 3 and what quality was achieved through a progressive TV or even as interlaced.

Spot, LANC is a protocol, but we all know it has some flavours; eg. the Canon's implementation varies from Sony's in certain aspects. For this reason, many controllers' PAF button works with some cameras but doesn't work with others. With the V1E, all MN523Pro's buttons function as intented, but only for several seconds - than the camera is simply switched off. My dealer informed me that the first V1E units he had before the 25p fix worked flawlessly (just like all the FX7s). So, go figure!

The Manfrotto's lanc controllers are being developed in Poland, and I will probably become their Beta-tester for the fixed MN523Pro.

Bob -- thank you. Previously, you mentioned that the P-flag was not being set in your exports.

Then I read this from from Michael -- "I just use the 1080/50i set to progressive and it produces a playable M2t that is progressive. I play it in VLC as progressive with no problems."

What were you trying trying to export?

How did you do this?

How did you find the P-flag wasn't being set?

Michael -- I'm confused by "1080/50i set to progressive." Do you mean you CHANGED the Field seting for a 1080/50i preset to NONE?

I'm now not using: 1080/24PsF 1080/25PsF 1080/30PsF

I find it far more clear to use:

1080i60 -- the way my magazine writes 1080/60i

1080i60/24p -- V1U (2-3 pulldown used)

1080i60/30p -- V1U

1080p60 -- coming someday


1080i50 -- the way my magazine writes 1080/50i

1080i50/25p -- V1E

1080p25 -- coming for HD DVD players via firmware

1080p50 -- coming someday


1080p24 -- pure 24p (BD and HD DVD)

1080p24F -- Canon's true 1080p24 but not with 24p images


720p25

720p30 -- likely to go away

720p50

720p60

720p60/24p -- 2-3 pulldown used

One can instantly see the nature of the video format by the first "i" or "p" and it reminds one they are working with interlace video even though Sony calls it 24p, 25p, and 30p.

The second number -- if there is one -- tells you the frame rate. The "p" tells you the carried images are really progressive.

The ratio between the two numbers, if not "2" -- tells you 2-3 pulldown is being used. For example, you can instantly see that to have a 1080p24 timeline, the 2-3 pulldown must be removed from 1080i60/24p. However, you also instantly see that you can edit in a 60i timeline because of the "1080i60" designation. Then when one wants to go to film, which is 1080p24 -- one instantly sees by the ratio between "60" and "24" that the 2-3 pulldown must now be removed.

For example, if one is editing 1080i50/25p, when one wants to go to film they DEINTERLACE which removes the "i" and replaces it by a "p" yielding 1080p25.

Or, if one has a 1080p25 timeline and wants to PTT to their V1E they must "convert" to 1080i50/25p. They know the Sony camcorder can only record 1080i50.

Yes, Steve, changed to none. I was just using the template in Vegas for 1080/50i and changing it to progressive with 25P captured from from the V1P. Reimported the rendered clip into Vegas and it showed as progressive.

Steve, Bob, Michael at al,

My impression is that we have started repeating what has already been said on the main subject. I realize I have my own, private agenda (of choosing the best cam for myself), please accept my apologies for that. I'd like to re-ask the question: whatever you call it Steve (1080/25PsF or 1080i50/25p), don't you agree that the V1E progressive material isn't "flawed" per se, but simply is not being correctly displayed? What we have is each of 25 frames per second written as two fields (or segments), taken in the same moment of time, one containing the odd lines and the other - the even ones. Now, to get back a full 1080 lines frame, both segments should not be "deinterlaced" (this process always assumes some method of approaching the temporal difference between fields), but displayed at the same time (weaved). This is evidently not the case, when the V1E is connected through HDMI or component to a progressive display. The fields are bobbed, which pronounces the aliasing effects present in the material.

The experiment with the 1080-line chart from Bob confirmed that it can be displayed correctly, without aliasing, as long as no deinterlacing is engaged. Bobbing it leads to horrible flicker (even worse than with the 25p material from the V1E, as we have fields of 1080 not just 540 lines being bobbed).

All the above is my understanding of the problem. If I'm missing something, please correct me.

Steve, further on PTTing the progressive output back to the V1E. As I mentioned before, Sony Vegas is smart enough and when you point it to a file that was rendered from 1080i50/25p as progressive, it will print it to tape but in segments (ie. convert it back to 1080i). Today I tried to cheat my V1E and used the Canopus TS Writer (a tool that comes with Edius). Even though it looks like it is printing a progressive clip, *NOTHING* goes to tape actually, apart from the time code!

You've not missed anything. This discussion has gone around and around and perhaps remarkably enough has ended back with what Steve said when he started it, the problem is in the display device(s)!

Is it the 'best' camera for your needs, only you can decide that. Maybe all that extra resolution and the problems most current displays have with it is going to be more grief than you'd like to deal with. This is really your call. All I can say is resolution always goes downhill in the post process, so the more real detail you have to start with the better. After all you can reduce detail in post, you cannot add it back if it wasn't recorded by the camera. On top of that displays are getting better and I'd think having as much resolution as possible to feed them would be a good thing.

Thanks Bob for your confirmation! Cause you see, at some point I got lost with all the extra information from Steve...

Anyway, you're absolutely right it's always better to start with as much resolution as possible (even if it cannot handled properly by most viewing devices), and than post-process with the chosen delivery method in view.
Obviously, my own exprerience with the A1 clearly shows it's way softer than the V1.

Your confirming the way I understand the problem has dotted the i's and crossed the t's - I'm sold on the V1E.

30 days, 300 posts...quite a marathon. I feel for the soul that finds this thread in a search. It's generated a *lot* of confusion, but hopefully everyone is clear now. It's a great time to close it down. thanks to everyone for their participation!