V1E clips
 

I had my V1E updated last week and I took also some test clips with the fixed unit:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/cosmical/Clip002.m2t
http://koti.mbnet.fi/cosmical/Clip006.m2t
http://koti.mbnet.fi/cosmical/Clip008.m2t
http://koti.mbnet.fi/cosmical/Clip009.m2t

All progressive except Clip008 is i. All are direct captures from V1E.

There is also a comparison clip showing the new and old i and p mode (after SW update), the "old" version being shot in lower light than "new" (not directly comparable conditions unfortunately). This is edited in PremierePro2:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/cosmical/sony_hrv-v1e-test.mpeg

These played really well on my Full-HD TV when played directly from the Cam using HDMI. I am quite happy with the fix. I'll still try to burn this to a DVD disk and test on my HD-DVD player (if a manage to do this by a standard DVD burner, any hints how this could be done?).

Timo, burning a HD DVD structure onto a regular DVD - unlike the Blu-Ray - is quite simple, actually. I know at least two products (Ulead DVD MovieFactory since version 5plus, and Ulead VideoStudio 10plus), where you can "burn" a HD DVD to your HDD folders, and then copy them onto a regular DVD as data.

You say your fixed V1E can play directly through HDMI without line twitter; can you tell us which sharpness setting you used for 25PsF?

V1 Clips
 

Timo,
Thanks for posting the clips. I'm sitting on the V1/CanonA1 fence and this is very helpful - I was amazed at the clarity.

I noticed a slight shaking in the clips - is the camera do this?

Thanks,
ChrisG

I noticed the shaking also, it might be due to the light weight SLIK tripod I used, and due to my hands using the buttons. Next time I need to use the heavier Vinten tripod.

Thanks, I have some older Ulead VideoStudio version, which does yet not support this. Need to study if I have someething else that might work (I have at least PremierePro2, Vegas7 plus some older stuff).

I shot the clips using auto mode, i.e. sharpness was set to default (is it 7?). I noticed the ND2 was swithed on.

Btw. the TV set and HD-DVD player is Toshiba (37WL67 and HD-E1).

I double checked this with the Cam and noticed the auto lock does not disable the PictureProfile (I am still quite new with this Cam) and noticed I was using PP6, sharpness set to 3. This may explain why there was no line jitter.

In the meantime, try the following: create a "HVDVD_TS" folder under the root of your regular DVD, and copy your video file rendered into MPEG-2 format (under the name of "xxx.mpg"). Please let us know if, and how it playes back on your HD DVD player!

I repeated this test this morning with sharpness set to 3,5,7,9,11 and yes, there is visible line twitter, small at 5-7, quite bad at 9-11. In my opinion 5-7 is still usable (perhaps I will set my default setting to 6).

I'll try to make this HD-DVD test with the same material next week when I am back from my winter vacation. :)

Piotr, I did not manage to get this simple folder way working. Instead using the Ulead DVD MovieFactory6 (free trial version) it was really easy. The DVD (containing the above HD-DVD material) was working well with my Toshiba HD-E1 HD-DVD. The only problem I had was I first tried to make 25p but since the E1 does not yet support this I had to set MovieFactory to convert my file to NTSC (29.97fps).

I really could not see big difference between the shots whether shown directly from the Cam or from the DVD player (both using HDMI) , really nice quality compared to standard DVD. Maybe the DVD quality was slightly lower (due to this NTSC conversion), and the difference between the shots taken with sharpness 3,5,7,9 was maybe not as big as in when watching directly from the cam. I would need to have 2 TV sets side by side to tell whether there really was a difference.

Timo, I get it the line twitter was still there when you played your clips from the HD-DVD htrough HDMI, right?

Also, did you try the Sony's recommended sharpness setting at 3 (or even below)? Is the twitter on fine, horizontal, contrasty edges completely gone? The reason I'm asking is it is *NOT* gone with my unit here...

Yes, the "twitter" was still there with higher sharpness settings. I am actually not 100% sure what is meant by this "twitter" (that is why I am using quotes), but what I am seeing is increasing "noise" like fast movement in the fine details with increased sharpness settings. With sharpness 3 I would say it is completely gone, and even up to 5-7 I don't see this too disturbing. You really need to watch close, from normal wahtcing distances I feel this is not an issue even with sharpness 5-7 in my unit/devices.

From your description I guess we're not talking the same thing. Twitter is basically not the noise; it is sort of line alternation of uneven, but generally low frequency, which can be best visible with fine, bright, horizontal lines.

In my unit, it is always visible when the 25PsF video is deinterlaced, and vanishes completely when it's played back with a software player on a progressive monitor, with deinterlacing off. It is stronger with high sharpness settings, but doesn't go away even at 3 or below!

It's very important for me to establish whether my unit differs in this respect to all the other, fixed V1Es. If so, I'll ask my dealer for replacement (my unit is a demo one, anyway).

Do you see this twitter on the clips I made (attached above) ? If not then your unit is clearly not performing as good as mine ? If yes, then maybe my display devices are not working same exactly same way as yours?

Maybe the word "noise" was too inaccurate, I can see increased jitter in thin horisontal lines and also on some fine details (like bushes, where it looks a little bit like dancing noise since there is a lot of those moving details).

Timo, the best way to recreate the twitter in the captured raw 25PsF files is to play them back in the VLC player with deinterlace=bob. I did just that with your clips, and yes I think it is there. I can't be 100% sure because of the whole picture rattling; also there are no horizontal fine lines where the twitter is most manifested. Which sharpness setting do clips 2, 6 and 9 have?

These attached ones are all sharpness 3. I also tried my VLC with different deinterlease settings and especailly with bob and linear I can see a huge increase in jittering lines/details, but my TV shows the picture roughly same quality I see with deinterlace off (default setting) on my PC monitor. The jittering I mentioned above is nothing compared to this with bob or linear on. But why should you use deinterlace, these are progressive shots (25p), except one? There should be no reason to deinterleace these,

Exactly - no reason! And yet, when you attach your camera to a HDTV with cmponent or HDMI, it gets deinterlaced because the 25PsF is carried in the 1080/50i stream. But you said you don't see it on your TV - please describe what TV you're using, and which interface? Is it full HD 1920x1080 through HDMI? Which model?

I am using Toshiba 37WL67Z Full HD TV with the HDMI1 input. Accorting to manual it supports 1080i, LCD resolution 1920x1080 and (naturally as this is LCD) has internal deinterleace, but probably don't use it in this case, or then the deinterlaecer is much better quality vs. VLC bob&linear ? Maybe it is all these DCDI Faroudja, PixelProcessingIII+ etc. that makes the difference ?

Linto TV page:
http://www.toshiba.de/consumer/conte...1_1_id3_8.aspx

Thanks Timo - in the discussion so far, we've been focusing on Sony's own Bravia line of HDTVs, and I can assure you (as can Steve Mullen) that the 25PsF material played on them directly from the V1E via HDMI or component show exactly the same amount of line twittering as thay do when bobbing is imposed on it with VLC.

I've always kept saying this way of deinterlacing is a killer for 25PsF and another solution must exist - who knows, perhaps you have just pointed to one? I'll be paying the Toshiba HDTV a lot of attention now. Also, please keep us informed about your further findings.

Unfortunately I have no experince of Sony Bravia TVs, but the Toshiba has performed quite well in some tests, and since I have their HD-DVD player as well I thought this would be a good TV for it. There is also a 42inch model, this I have is 37" (smallest full-HD). Also I know Sharp has some Full-HD TVs, and some more unknown Xoro and Mirai have even 1080p models available already. These are all quite low cost models also.

Piotr, I have done some more testing. I downloaded your clips with various i/p and sharpness settings (from your backyard) and burnt it to HD-DVD and there this twitter was more obvious (on the horizontal lines of the wall). With 25p and shapness set to 7 this was quite obvious also on my TV, still not as bad as on my PC with bob on, with sharpness 3 I would say it was totally gone and with 5 still usable (some very small twitter visible). I noticed also that my newer PC (using the same 22" LCD monitor than the old one) created less twitter, almost as little as my HDTV, so the graphics card might have something to do with this also ? The comments above (with bob creating a huge difference with my clips) was based on the older PC, where the bob really messes the picture (or then it is the analog component video I am using with it, the newer one uses DVI). If you like I can post you the DVD-R and you can go and compare different TV sets yourself (just email me your address).