Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

Hi all! I've owned an FX-1 for almost four years now and have been shooting wedding videos off and on over the years. The problem with the cam is that you only have the 1/8" input and I would like some feedback from owners of
the Beachtek box for additional audio devices and their experience with same and suggestions as to what arrangement I need to pick up both the bride and groom at the altar as well as ambient sound. My plan is to place the FX-1 on the altar toward the back and to the right so it won't be too obvious and shoot the bride's face therefore. I'll be using a VX2100 (with an assistant manning that camera at the back of the church) . I own an Azden WMS 100 Pro lavalier mic as well as a Rode VideoMic. I've read some blogs on this Forum re setting up the inputs of wireless mics and it's very confusing, epecially since the FX-1 doesnt' have multiple inputs! Any suggestions? Thanks for your inputs.

acipriano

Anthony, this topic has been discussed a lot here. Try doing a search on the forums.
Also I have 2 FX1s that use with an XLR adapter box. I used to use the Beachtek DXA-FX, but now I use a box by a company called Juicedlink.

Their boxes are much quieter (due to built in pre amps) and also cheaper in price.

Take a look at this post on one of my blogs on the Juicedlink box. Links are provided there as well.

http://lvptools.blogspot.com/2008/04...r-adapter.html

I personally will use 2 cameras for weddings (camera 1 in back of church either in balcony or just off center of the isle (up high) to capture medium wide shots.

Camera 2 is manned by me (first shooting up the isle on the grooms side down low to gte processional. The when bride is handed off I go to a preset tripod on the grooms side to get brides reactions. center camera can get the grooms if they face each other.

I have 2 XLR boxes on both cams, with the rear camera getting feed from priest or alter for readings via wireless and shotgun mic (Rode NTG2) for ambient audio.
My camera has grooms audio via wireless and Rode NTG2 shotgun mic for ambient audio.
I also use digital audio recorders to capture musicians and readings and mix down in post.

How on earth do you mix footage shot on the FX1 and VX2100 Anthony? The VX looks very soft when switched into the 16:9 mode, and I've found it doesn't cut at all well into FX1 (SD) footage. Admittedly it's low light performance is eye-wideningly good, but I feel it's time you got another FX1.

tom.

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

Thanks for the infor on the Juicedink box. I have read reviews on Beachtek equipment and many of them claim that the units break in the first year of use and are noisy in the microphone picking up the clicks when the volume is adjusted. The price of the Juicedink is comparable to, say the DX4 however
$179.00. Have you used a portable recorder like a Zoom or Edirol at the altar to pick up the minister and the couple? If so, have you just set it on "record" and let it run or have it go directly to your camcorder via wireless adapter?
One more question. You mentioned that you placed your camera on the groom side but, how does one get that all important "groom reaction" shot as the bride is walking up the aisle? Cam 1?

Tom....you're probably right about the two cameras conflicting, quality wise but I'll probably be shooting in 4:3 aspect in both situations. Crazy as it may seem, but as I have never been able to remove the image distortion of shooting in 16:9 either in HDV mode or DV mode in editing (using a Roxio program that is) I have alway shot in 4:3 and in SD mode. Unfortunately, I don't have the heavy duty computer equipment yet to render in Adobe or any of the preferred NLEs but until I get a new one, this is the best I can work with. So, to answer your question, no, don't see a problem using both an HDV cam and SD cam since the wedding won't be shot in HDV or 16:9.
I beleive you have a VX2100 and as you know, that low light quality is unrivaled, at least for SD cams. I understand the new Sony HVR-Z7U HDV is great for low light but the cost.....! Thanks for your reply.

Anthony

I do use several recorders (Zoom H2, Edirol R09, Marantz PMD620 and Edirol R-44).
As for the grooms reaction to the bride. I am right in front of him down low shooting up the isle handheld (using a DVMulti Rig Pro support). I simply turn around and get his reaction then shoot up the isle again to get the rest of the bride coming down the isle. Once the bride is handed off, then I go to the preset tripod for the reminder of the ceremony. But sometimes (especially for outside services) I might stay all handheld. I can get real steady shots with the DVMulti Rig.

I don't see where you live and work Anthony, but here in the UK any couple that can afford a wedding videographer as well as a stills photographer doesn't come home from an expensive honeymoon and switch on an old 4:3 CRT.

So I'm somewhat surprised when I read that people are still shooting weddings in 4:3, unless the couple are adept with their plasma's remote and know how to stretch, pull, move and distort the 4:3 picture to fill their 16:9 screen. SD still rules of course, because folk have seen how good upscaling DVD players can be.

But what really confuses me about your post is your talk of the 'image distortion when shooting 16:9'. Er? You can view 16:9 as a masked down 4:3 rectangle, so how does doing this this add distortion?

tom.

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

All me to explain Tom. First, I live in the U.S. and, yes, most people are purchasing widescreen tvs now in HD so they can enjoy that wonderful effect. My problem is that when shooting in 16:9 widescreen and in HD on the FX-1 and then editing on the Roxio NLE, the image ultimately comes out as "squatty" or compressed in the downcovert process. I have gone on blogs to see if there was some way to adjust this on the camera but, no. One suggestion was to use Adobe Premiere where you can adjust the image in post. That's why I have been shooting in 4:3 Tom. otherwise, I agree with you, 16:9 is the way to go. Thanks for your input.

Anthony

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

Michael. Thank you for your comments on your position when shooting groom reaction and bridal party. I confess that I'm at a loss as to where to stand to do this and be able to cross the aisle to go to the tripod setup to shoot the rest of the wedding. One concern I have is, getting in the way of the bridal party and being obvious to the guests. Also, where do you "park" your Edirol or Zoom during the ceremony? Is it on the minister's lecturn? Thank you.

Anthony

Anthony, why not shoot 16:9 HDV footage in the FX1 and when replaying that tape into the computer simply downconvert in camera? Does Roxio still muck with that SD footage?

Anthony, I am parked on the grooms side (shooting up the isle, down low as not to block the grooms view). My preset tripod is also on the grooms side (to get the brides reactions). When the bride and FOB is almost to the end of the isle (I stand up) and move backwards to get the her being handed off to the groom. Then I move to the preset tripod for the remainder of the service. So there's no crossing in front of the alter or bridal party.
Sometimes (mainly for outdoor services) I might stay all handheld, as I get very steady shots with my DVMulti Rig, and being outdoors, have freedom to move around if desired.

As for my recorders...one unit (R09 or PMD620) is on the lectern for readings using the onboard mics.
Musicians will be recorded with the Zoom H2 and built in mics (2CH or 4CH) recording to record from both sides of the mic sing all 4 mic elements. Or if I ahve time I might use a 4-track Edirol R-44 recorder and mic accordingly. Although I usually only use this etup for live bands at a reception.

The remaining unit (R09 or PMD620) might be used with a lav on the priest or on the groom (for double micing with wireless).

I generally only use my wireless for the grooms vows or for reference sync audio that will be cued up with the recorder audio in post.

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

Tom. The problem I have had is in downloading the video using that Roxio 7.5 program and the inability to change the aspect ration to widescreen. That's what causes the problem resulting in a "squished" look to the video in the final product. I'm going to rummage through this program to see if I can change the aspect and that would probably take care of the problem and I can at last record EVERYTHING in HDV as the camera was designed to do!
The FX-1 is still around $3,000.00 here in the States so purchasing a second camera that appears to be in the process of being replaced by that beautiful HVR 27U is not an option. Still, the VX2100, that old SD "standby" is selling for $2198.00 at B & Photo and other places for at least $2600.00! Amazing but a testament to its legendary low light capabilities. Thanks for the advice.

Tony

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

Thanks Mike for the description of you and your camera. My question is, when shooting the groom from his position and then down the aisle, where are you exactly all this time...standing in front of him in the middle of the aisle? I'm trying to visualize your placement. The DVRig is something I'm seriously going to be looking at. I imagine for the bride and groom dance and in the course of the reception, it must come in very handy as a stable platform. How good is it in simulating Steadicam shots? As for the portable recorder devices, do you have any favorite volume setting since you're not monitoring them during the ceremony (I presume)? In the upcoming wedding, there will be a solo violinist. Can you suggest where to "park" a Zoom recorder to pick up the sound? Do you have a favorite between the Edirol and the Zoom? I'm looking at either one for purchase. Thanks for your input!

Anthony

Anthony, I place myself in front of the groom down low (so not to block his view) and hugging the isle on his side. Then I shoot up the isle and get a nice angled frame using the flowers along the isle. I don't stand in the middle of the isle because people have to walk by me. Also I hug the isle and am down low, so my 2nd camera in the back or in the balcony doesn't really pick me up, as I hide in the picture and don't stand out as much.

The DVMulti Rig is by far the most versatile support piece out there. It has no equal. It can shoot in any position and has a 2 section support pod that takes the stress off of your back and shoulders and places it on your hips. I shoot with it ALL day long using the 2 section support pod in Fig Rig mode (handles up), handheld (handles down), shoulder mode (shoulder supported), low mode (the shoulder support turns into an extended handle so you can get low profile shooting with your camera upright). I can boo dutch etc, with it with no effort at all. The only thing that it can't do great is get booming shots over a crowd like you can do with an extended (over the crowd) monopod. Also, its not a Steadican/Glidecam, so your not going to get those long floating or running shots like you can get with a Glidecam. But you can get great moving camera shots with it, as well as some good walking shots with it (with a little walking practice).

As for the Zoom H2 recorder< set it on M (medium) gain and a setting of 106 for recording input. I place it directly in front of the musicians or in the middle of them and record in either 2 channel (Stereo from both sides of the mic) or 4 channel (All 4 mic elements separately from both sides of the mic).

I don't have a favorite do everything recorder, as they all do some things great, some not so great. I ONLY use the Zoom H2 for its built in mics as its 1/8 mic and line inputs are weak and noisy.

The R09 has good built in mics, but not nearly as versatile as the Zoom, but it does everything else better, as it has better pre amps (so its quieter with external mics and line in), and has great manual controls, and better battery run times.
I have been using a Marantz PMD620 lately and love ti even more than the R09, as it has a better build quality, better pre amps, and more adjustable manual controls (in the menu for 3 presets). There is a new R09HR that is coming out that seems to have fixed some of the flaws in the original R09 which I have, so its worth a look for you as well. For an all around recorder, I would say the R09HR or PMD620. Even better would be a Zoom H2 and one of the other recorders.

Then there's the new Edirol R-44 which I just received (records to SD card via 4 separate channels of audio mix 4 balanced XLR inputs). This replaced my older R4 which I used for live sound recording of band and live recitals via individual mics and board feeds. I had a Zoom H2 that I used (very successfully) the same way as the R4/R-44, but I needed more than 2 inputs of audio.

If you look on my main Blog page http://lvptools.blogspot.com/ you will see info on the Zoom H2 and Edirol R09 with some samples.

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

Michael..sorry to get back to you so late but was out of town for over a week. Thanks for your helfpul tips on camera position and the use of the MultiRig. I have to look into getting one of those units before the next wedding to video. My camera position is usually on the groom's side mounted on a tripod but I can see the advantages of being on the "floor" so to speak with your camera, hand-held as it wered to get both bride and groom in action. It's got to be a great shot! You mentioned that you were using 2 cameras and that one of them is in the back on the balcony or thereabouts.
In this upcoming wedding, the setting is a little chapel with no balcony and a raised dais in front of the congregation. I can email you some photos of the interior so you can see what I'm talking about. In any event, where do you position your second camera if you don't have a balcony? I did a 2 shot of the wedding processional of a wedding a while back where a friend was shooting from a balcony that ran from front to back along the sides. He got some great shots of the wedding processional but sadly, that's not the case in most weddings. I'm looking at the Zoom as well and thank you for that piece on the Juicedink. It's definately worth a look! Thanks for your kind suggestions and sorry again for not responding sooner.

Anthony

Anthony, I shoot from the balcony from time to time. I ove small chapels with wrap around balconies, becasue you can get all of your shots unobtrusive.
But honestly prefer shooting from the floor, as it's on the same visual plane as the couple and the front camera. I woudl normally shoot from the back of the aisle, behind the last row of pews and position my tripod up as high as possible (a light stand works great here as well as it gets even higher than a tripod) and shoot from that position for pretty much the entire service. I position the tripod just right or left of the aisle (so it's hugging the pew) and have the camera follow the processional from the entrance pan slightly and down the aisle. I have the front shot going up the aisle, so the rear camera is mainly for the processionals entrance into the ceremony. For the bride, the rear camera gets her entrance and follows her down the aisle. once the bride is handed off I will instruct the rear camera operator to zoom in for closeup/medium shots for most of the service.

My next shoot I'm going to experiment with another setup. Use 4 preset tripods (all up high), one in rear center, one up front on grooms side (for me) and another on the brides side 3/4 of the way up the aisle and one directly across from my front tripod for vows). Once the processional starts I will be in my normal position up front (but on the brides side, then move across to grooms side to go to tripod once bride is handed off), camera 2 will film on tripod 3 (on the brides side for side shots of processional). Once the bride is handed off and before everyone sits down, camera 2 moves from the side position to the rear position for the service. Once the groom starts to say his his vows, camera 2 moves to tripod 4 to shoot grooms reactions as the bride recites her vows. Camera stays up here for vows and rings, then moves back to rear tripod for the remainder of the service and departure up the aisle.

Either go with this setup of just use 3 tripods, with rear tripod shooting from the same position until vows then move up front, then back to the rear for the departure up the aisle. So in this instance I would be shooting from 3 positions instead of 4. The idea is to get more angles in order to seem like more cameras were involved.

Either way I mainly use camera in rear for cutaways and entrance and exit shots. But keep the camera up high to avoid anyone from getting in the way. Having the extra tripod setup helps I case you need to move positions for those surprises that can happen during the service. Like the ceremony opening changing order from the rehearsal, which happened to me a few months back and f'ed up my opening. Thus me installing the extra tripods if needed. I'm not going to get stuck during a shoot again. =)

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

I'm impressed about your placement of cameras up high on stands during the ceremony. Unfortunately, for me, I'm 5'5" so "craning" up to monitor while shooting at that height could be daunting for me unless I have tv monitors to assist during the shoot! Your videos must be very compelling with all those cutaways from different cams. I like your cam placement scheme for the 2 cameras and will try that arrangement for the next wedding shoot. Thanks.

Referring back to the original topic of audio gear, do I understand that your recorders take all the audio from the groom, minister, bride and your cams are left with the ambient audio to record? If that's so, it must be complicated synching up the audio from the SD cards to the video (eg: vows, speeches) or do your cams also record the wireless audio as well as the independent recorders? As I am purchasing at least one recorder, which unit would you suggest for starters re the groom and would it pick up both the bride and the minister? Second, I currently own an Azden WMS Pro which
only records to one channel (left) on the FX-1 using the external mike jack.
That's a problem in any event and I'm not sure how the Juicedink or any other breakout box will correct that unless I incorporate my Rode Video Mic with XLR into same along with the wireless receiver via the second XLR.
Is this how you configure yours?

Thanks.

Anthony

Ok first of all Anthony, I'm only 5'7 so you won't have to worry about height.
I bring along a step stool to use if needed. My tripods only got up about '72 inches or so, but it's generally enough. I have seen some videographers using a light stand elevated real high and they do use a LANC remote and external monitor to view their footage.

I use my recorders, generally with their built in mics, one on the podium for readings and speeches, one recording musicians and maybe one on the officiant or groom. But I also use external mics, when needed, as well (Rode NT3, Rode NT5's, AT822 etc.).

I still try to use wireless whenever possible, one so I can monitor the audio and also to use as sync backup audio. I prefer using the audio recorders for my critical audio (except for the groom, where I use audio sent to my camera).

I currently use a Zoom H2 to record musicians using its 4 built in internal mics (it can record from both sides of the unit. In my opinion the H2 is great for using it's onboard mics, but stinks if you have to use it's 1/8 mic or line input. So lav micing is out of the question with it.

I use my Edirol R09 or Marantz PMD620 with its internal mics for readings as I said. But I also may use it for lav micing (like when I film at the USNA, and wireless is prohibited). Or I may also use its 1/8 line input for board feeds. Currently I prefer the Marantz PMD620 over the R09, but both are very good units. BTW I hate to say it, but there's no one does it all best recorder out there. Each one will work very well, but it depends what you recording situations calls for.
The Zoom H2 is good for using its onboard mics to capture live and ambient audio (mainly musicians or micing a PA stack and capturing crowd audio at the same time. (Using lav or line in via 1/8, not good.).

Edirol R09 or Marantz PMD620 good for external mic or line in recording via 1/8 input. Good onboard mics, but not as versatile or good as the Zoom H2.

Zoom H4, is good for using external sources such as 2 mics or mic and line feeds via the balanced built in 14 TRS XLR inputs. The onbaord mics are also pretty good. But you have no way to use a lav mic if needed as it has no 1/8 input, and it's too large to use on a person anyway.

Edirol R-44 great for live mixing via 4 balanced XLR 14 TRS inputs. Like all of these recorders it records to SD card. You get perfectly synced 4 channel audio that is independently adjustable in post. Even though the unit is small for what it is, it's still large in most cases to be used alone in the field without practice. Also, you will need to figure out what the best setup is for audio input, wireless feeds, direct line feeds, both, etc.

Now as for the Juicedlink box...
You plug the Juicedlink box into your cameras 1/8 input. You now have the ability to input 2 (or 4 depending on your model) separate audio feeds into your camera, and adjust each channels audio independently as needed, using the boxes audio pots.
You can set the unit for L/C/R for each input.
I would recommend setting one L and the other Right. This way you have 2 individual tracks (onboard mic and wireless) in which you can record to and adjust in post. Working with mono feeds is really ideal as it's much easier to work with different audio on separate tracks and mix in post.

If you get the 4 channel unit you could send:
CH1: Wireless on groom (panned left)
CH2: Wireless on podium (panned right)
CH3: Wireless on musicians (panned center)
CH4: Onboard shotgun for ambient and crowd audio (panned center)

Even though you can only record 2 channels of audio in the FX1. You can still take different inputs and mix them appropriately while shooting. I prefer to send some channels left or right because its easier to work with separate audio in post whenever possible. Since my spoken audio is on separate tracks, it makes it easier for me to correct and work with in post. The musicians and ambient audio doesn't bother me as much, as this is used for filler audio on both tracks to enhance it more. Also generally the music ins't being played during the spoken sections of the service (although it is mixed in in post by me).

I would prefer having all of these on 4 individual tracks in camera, but this works fine for me, as I am adjusting the volume at my camera (via CX431 box) to my liking.

As for using recorders and syncing them in post. It is really easy. You find a reference point that you can use to sync up your audio (clap, camera click, spoken word, cheer etc.), then sync them up in your NLE on your timeline by using the waveforms and your ears for reference.

I you were using a 4 track recorder like the Edirol R-44, you would have all 4 elements like i posted earlier on separate tracks, so working in post is real easy, as all of your audio is synced perfectly in the recorder. All you have to do now is use your cameras taped audio to line up the waveforms in post as explained above.
Once again you would rather record audio in mono for ease of use. if you need it in stereo, it's easy to do that in post as well. but its difficult to correct audio if needed, if you have your audio mixed in stereo to begin with, as your audio sources are not separated, and there's no way to separate it after the fact.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have any further questions.

Recording Audio Gear For FX-1
 

Michael...awesome camera arrangement you described in your last blog. I wonder if you recently tried it out and was it successful? Do you run into a problem with your tripods arrangement getting knocked into after the ceremony? I see that you have them hugging the pews but how do you avoid that problem? Also, I'm considering purchasing the Multirig but concerned about dismantling it off the person and the camera in order to "run" to the next setup at the tripod. I beleive I can purchase a Bogen quick release bracket for the DVtec but wonder aloud if the plate that comes with the MultiRig would fit my Bogen 501 head already? Also, I'm close to purchasing a Beachtek and and Rode NT2-G mic along with either a Senny or Samson wireless lavalier to replace the existing WMS Pro I own. Any thoughts on those mics and do you consider these (a boom mic and a wireless) essentials to getting good audio during the wedding? I currently own a Rode VidMic which of course goes into the 1/8th plug. Not yet ready to buy another HDV cam with XLR as I see the recording format is changing to flashdrive and the price of those units is still prohibitive to me. Thanks for your kind thoughts on this Michael and anyone who wants to chime in with theirs, please do!

Best wishes,

Anthony

Anthony, thanks for the compliment. My setups have served me well, for the last 3 years or so. Let me try to answer some of you questions below.

I haven't had a chance to try this setup, but have actually come up with another.
I recently purchased a Bogen double head mount for my rear tripod. This will enable me to place 2 fluid heads on one tripod and shoot accordingly.
What I'm going to do is mount 2 cameras on my rear tripod. And I woudl still be on the side shooting for closeups accordingly. What I like about this setup is that I am able to create a 3 camera shoot using only 2 tripods. As I would handle closeups up front, and the rear cameras would create 2 different consistent focal views.

Oh, and as for my tripods getting bumped, I have yet to really have a problem with that. If anything I have more worries about my mic stand getting bumped during the reception. Which hasn't happened too often, thank God.

All that you need is to mount a normal QR assembly on the DVMulti Rig, and you can remove your camera to tripod with no issue. Also, DVTec has a new Tripod Docking Bracket, that will enable you to mount your entire rig on a tripod. Danny, is sending me one to try out. It should work very well, as the old tripod braket worked well, and I have heard from some that this one is even better.

I am an avid preacher to capturing the best audio that you can, either off camera or on camera. On camera mounted audio for the most part is useless, but has it's place.
I have used Beachtek XLR adapters for a long time now, as I used to use them on my old VX2100's (I also had PD170's so they weren't needed), and now require them for my FX1's. I would prefer onboard XLR's of the Z1, but needed multiple cameras, so I settled on the FX1s. On average, the Beachtek boxes are noisy, because they are passive boxes, which means that there are no active pre amps in the unit to keep the noise floor down. Beachtek does have a unit (DXA-6HD, that uses built in pre amps and is pretty quiet. But it's expensive in my book. If you are looking for an XLR adater, then besides Beachtek you may also want to take a look at http://juicedlink.com/. I actually like the sound quality fo their boxes better, as the pre amps are quieter and more adjustable. Also, what's nice is that they are considerably cheaper in price, but not quality. If you need phantom power, then you can get the CX231. If you don't have need for phantom power then I would suggest the CX211 a great buy.
As for onboard mics. I love the Rode mics, and use many of them. For a shotgun style mic, the NTG2 is very good. I prefer it over the Sennheiser ME66, because it's better in both outdoors (where shotguns are best used) as well as indoors (where hey aren't good on average). The Sennheiser is a very good mic, but too hot for indoor use where you are getting a lot of sound reflection. During a wedding shoot, I will use a wireless feed to my main cameraa dn the onbaord shotgun strictly for ambient audio. So for a ceremony, I have grooms mic going into my camera, and onbaord for crowd audio. Readings and such are captured by off camera audio recorders. For the reception, I mic one pA stack with a wireless handheld and feed that to CH2 and use onboard shotgun (CH1) for ambient crowd audio.

As for wireless, the Sennheiser units are the best bang for the buck. With that said, I have used the Samson Micro 32 units for 5 years now with no issues. The reason that I went for Samson, was strictly for price (as I needed 2 full sets, as well as wireless handheld with built i n transmitter). The Sennheiser units actually have a better sound to them, and have a much better body build. The Samson build quality is not the greatest, and people have reported problems with the transmitter antennas breaking off and such. Thank goodness, I haven't had any of these issues as of yet.

I ams till trying to find the best and easiest setup for me shooting alone, and am constantly tweaking. I am actually going to try going back to only using a monopod (just purchased a new Bogen 561B fluid base monopod with fluid head) and tripod for ceremony use. The reason being that I can't seem to get good tight zoom in on the bride for the processional, with the DVMulti Rig, and seem to get steadier tight shots with a monopod. Also, the smaller setup is a bit quicker to transfer from monopod to tripod, than DVMulti Rig to tripod. the new "Tripod Docking Bracket" may change that, well see.

So, I will be trying to use a monopod (which has a smaller footprint) up front for the processional and then go to tripod (like normal) for remaining ceremony shooting. I tried the Bogen fluid head monopod at a meeting and loved how smooth it panned. And with a fluid base and fluid head on top, should make for some real nice steady closeups during the processional. As for the reception, it's all DVMulti Rig. My camera will still be setup with either 2 wireless, or wireless and shotgun mic. Camera light will be off camera unit the reception.