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-   -   HDR-FX1 HDVis it good for (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-hvr-z1-hdr-fx1/46566-hdr-fx1-hdvis-good.html)

Dejah Fortue June 21st, 2005 03:15 PM

HDR-FX1 HDVis it good for
 
im shooting a indie low budget flick example(kids,bully,gummo) is the fx1 good for this or would the cannon gl2 be enough.

sorry if this is wrong forum, my first post

thanks

Chris Hurd June 21st, 2005 04:50 PM

Any camcorder is a good one, as long as it works!

Michael Pappas June 22nd, 2005 11:22 AM

Dejah Fortue,

I look at it like this. If your going to spend your hard creative time and skills on a project for the next year or two, you might as well capture every little bit of detail that you can. Why limit yourself to SD level. You can always go down with HD to SD DVD's but the reverse will not look good ever. Start out with the best master you can. Why spend all that money on sets, actors, lighting, peoples time and not retain as much of that hard work as you can. Shoot HD and don't ever look back.

Now that said, don't waist any more time on the cameras . Develop your story and how your going to tell it visually. This is the most important elements to upses over. Work on the story and all it elements in making it work.


I hope this helps........

Pappas

Michael Pappas June 22nd, 2005 02:50 PM

One other thing Dejah Fortue,

If your production doesn't start for few months, you should wait to see the HVX200.

The HVX200 is the camera stopping me from buying the Z1u/FX1 and HD100. The HVX200 so far looks like the best one if it lives up to the press on it.

Canon as well might offer something, but it will be HDV most likely. I don't mind HDV, but DVCpro HD is a standard in the industry.

So if you are not shooting for a while you should spend every waking moment making your story and characters solid before you film a single second. By that time you should have many choices on HD cams to pick from.

Pappas

Bill Pryor June 22nd, 2005 04:05 PM

I think Kids and Gummo were shot film. I don't know about Bully.

I'd go with the FX1 simply because it has 16:9 chips. The Sony demo DVD of the Z1 (pro version of the FX1) looked great. While the DVCPRO HD format may be a bit better, the new Panasonic camera is still going to be a 1/3" chip camera. Recording to a little bit better HD format is going to make some difference, but in the end probably not all that much--although I don't know for sure, since the new camera isn't out yet and the only DVCPRO HD is from 2/3" chip cameras, irrelevant in this case.

And, there's the price to consider. The Z1 is under $5K, and the FX1 is even cheaper. The Panasonic is going to be $10K with the 2 P2 cards, which allow you to shoot 16 minutes of video. Then you have to transfer the footage to hard drives, in real time (a 4 gig card takes 4 minutes), erase the cards and reuse them, trusting your footage to the hard drives. If you use firewire drives, I'd assume you'd have to have a computer along for the transfer too, but maybe not. Panasonic is going to sell a portable 60 gig drive, and I'm guessing you could transfer P2 directly to it. But it's only 60 gigs, which is just an hour of DVCPRO HD footage.

If you can work within this kind of workflow and cost, then the Panasonic probably is going to be better. Again, the question is how much better.

In my opinion the GL2 is a bit iffy because it is only a 1/4" chip camera. The FX1 has 1/3" chips, shoots HDV and its chips are 16:9. So it's way superior to the GL2, in my opinion. On the other hand, if you already own a GL2 and if money is tight, I'd say go with what you have. If you spend all your money on a camera, you won't have any to put into other things like good lighting and sound. And pizza and beer for the cast and crew, and coffee and donuts in the mornings. A cheap camera and a well-fed crew is better than a bitchy crew and a good camera.

Speaking of Harmony Korine (you mentioned Gummo), I think he's brilliant and it doesn't matter what he shoots with. Julien Donkey-Boy, for example was shot with a variety of cheap cameras. If you can come up with a good story and get the kind of performances out of actors he does, you can shoot with a Fisher-Price toy camera and people will watch your stuff. Well, maybe that's an exaggeration, but the camera is only the tip of the iceberg.

Alex Raskin June 22nd, 2005 04:44 PM

I respectfully disagree with the point that camera practically doesn't matter.

Recently I found myself unable to fully enjoy 28 days or even David Lynch's Lost Highway precisely because the image quality was subpar (on DVD. I dont know how it looked in the theaters, but I suspect it looked even worse.)

So while the story is king, the certain visual quality must also be there. Viewers should not be distracted by bad pictures from enjoying the story.

Boyd Ostroff June 22nd, 2005 05:37 PM

I thought 28 days later worked surprisingly well in the theatre. And in the case of that movie, it wasn't a budgetary decision. The director wanted it to have that look. Now it's fine that you didn't like it, but it really wasn't a "subpar image" issue, but one of intentional stylization.

Bill Pryor June 22nd, 2005 06:51 PM

Thomas Vinterberg shot "The Celebration" with Sony TRV7 cameras, single chip consumer ones. The film won awards all over the world and is excellent. There have been lots of movies shot with small cameras that looked perfectly good on a TV screen, and some even in the theaters. Agnes Varda shot quite a number of shots of "The Gleaners & I" with a TRV900, and nobody in the theater noticed it.

Granted, a better image is better. But if all the production values are in place, including lighting, composition, directing, editing, talent and story, then if it's shot with a 1/4" chip camera, it can still be good. Anyway, the chances of a very low budget movie getting to a big screen are very small. Getting to Sundance Channel, IFC, Showtime, etc., the chances are much better.

I personally feel that a 1/3" chip camera is as low as I want to go in visual quality, but you work with what you have to work with.

Carlos E. Martinez June 23rd, 2005 06:06 AM

Content is what really matters, even if image quality may be part of that content too.

In any case, if money is short and you have to pick a 1/4" camera, which are generally more affordable from the 3-CCDs group, get yourself a Sony PDX10 or a Panasonic GS400 and shoot native 16:9.

That video can probably interchange well with stuff later shot in 16:9 HDV.


Carlos

Tommy Haupfear June 23rd, 2005 12:16 PM

Quote:

I personally feel that a 1/3" chip camera is as low as I want to go in visual quality, but you work with what you have to work with.
I definitely agree with that statement!

Bob Zimmerman June 23rd, 2005 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Pappas
One other thing Dejah Fortue,

If your production doesn't start for few months, you should wait to see the HVX200.

The HVX200 is the camera stopping me from buying the Z1u/FX1 and HD100. The HVX200 so far looks like the best one if it lives up to the press on it.

Canon as well might offer something, but it will be HDV most likely. I don't mind HDV, but DVCpro HD is a standard in the industry.

So if you are not shooting for a while you should spend every waking moment making your story and characters solid before you film a single second. By that time you should have many choices on HD cams to pick from.

Pappas

Canon won't be HDV. Remember that e-mail I got from the Canon rep? No HDV, they are no longer in the HDV consortium. Look for them to make a real HD XL. Does anyone really think Canon will sit back and just let Panasonic and JVC steal the show?

Late in the year 2005 a XL3 HD with a built in hard drive.

Radek Svoboda June 29th, 2005 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman
Canon won't be HDV. Remember that e-mail I got from the Canon rep? No HDV, they are no longer in the HDV consortium.

Is that true?

Radek

Michael Pappas June 29th, 2005 09:28 AM

That's very interesting info. If it happens that will be awesome!

When did Canon pull out of the HDV consortium?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Zimmerman
Canon won't be HDV. Remember that e-mail I got from the Canon rep? No HDV, they are no longer in the HDV consortium. Look for them to make a real HD XL. Does anyone really think Canon will sit back and just let Panasonic and JVC steal the show?

Late in the year 2005 a XL3 HD with a built in hard drive.


Radek Svoboda June 29th, 2005 10:29 AM

Canon has not pulled out. Check following site:

http://www.hdv-info.org/

This is latest info from site:

HDV Format Co-Promoters Office is currently operated by Sony Corporation on behalf of Canon Inc., Sharp Corporation, Sony Corporation and Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC)

HDV and HDV logo are trademarks of Sony Corporation and Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC).

The site is registered to Sony, phone numbers are to Sony. Seems like Sony is main company here, then JVC, then Canon and Sharp, then some 50 companies that licence HDV stuff, like Apple, Avid, Pioneer, CineForm.

Radek

Michael Pappas June 29th, 2005 10:58 AM

That's what I thought! If Canon had pulled out, it would have been in the trade papers..

Thanks Radek.........


Quote:

Originally Posted by Radek Svoboda
Canon has not pulled out. Check following site:

http://www.hdv-info.org/

This is latest info from site:

HDV Format Co-Promoters Office is currently operated by Sony Corporation on behalf of Canon Inc., Sharp Corporation, Sony Corporation and Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC)

HDV and HDV logo are trademarks of Sony Corporation and Victor Company of Japan, Limited (JVC).

The site is registered to Sony, phone numbers are to Sony. Seems like Sony is main company here, then JVC, then Canon and Sharp, then some 50 companies that licence HDV stuff, like Apple, Avid, Pioneer, CineForm.

Radek


Michael Struthers June 29th, 2005 03:34 PM

If you are really going to make a feature, instead of dropping the 5k on a cam +accessories...

...take that 5k and hand it to a good DP that comes with his own super16mm or sdx900 cam. Tell him "for the next 3 weeks you are mine"

Believe me, your project will have just jumped a level or two.

Michael Pappas June 29th, 2005 04:25 PM

I agree with michael on that. Renting is the way to go on alot of productions.

Though it will cost more than 5k for a three week shoot with a sdx900.


sdx900's in LA to SF area go for around $600 a day. Figuring that you will be shooting 6 days a week with sundays off:

$600 x 18days is $10,800 for just the camera.

That's a very basic sdx900 gear rental too! You will need more. But lets keep this simple for example sakes

Now you might get a deal from the DP if he owns his own camera. He might rent to you for a little less. Your still talking close to 10k for the camera.

Now the DP will cost as well. A good DP is going to cost some money. Not a great DP but a good DP still does not come cheap.

Ok based on a typical LA production. You will shoot an average 12 hour day. This could be as low as $300 a day ( $25 hr ) or much much much higher. Lets say for example you get lucky and get a good DP for $25hr in LA. Yeah!


$300 x 18days = $5,400 dollars.

So now you have your camera and DP at a cost of around $15,000 for a 18 day shoot.


You could always get a Z1u or HVX200 for around 6K and hire a DP for the above rate and save around 4k. Then when done filming you still have your camera for tests and extra pick up shots. Or you could sell the camera recoup 80% or so back on the camera.

That would mean it was cheaper to own your camera first, then hire the DP, and then shoot the film. Then sell the camera after shooting and save some money.


Pappas

Radek Svoboda June 29th, 2005 06:31 PM

SDX 900 will not have quality of Z1 for film out.

Get Z1, use it, master it. Learn something, forget renting.

These are my thoughts.

Radek


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