HDR-FX1 or HVR-A1U ? What's better for me?
 

I'm new here and need some advice from more knowledgable filmers. For the past few years I have been filming youth sports (especially football) games for the kids. I then capture, edit, and assemble highlight reels in Premier Pro, and burn this to DVD for the kids and their parents at the end of the season. The camera I use is used weekly, sometimes 2 or 3 times a week, and sees warm and cold temps, wind, sometimes rain (under an umbrella or other cover of course)..and it has to play back the tapes for capture.

I have been using Sony TRV series cameras, but they don't seem to stand up to this amount of use, and only last 2 years at best. Then the transport mechanism starts screwing up, I have problems with the autofocus and autoexposure, and the picture quality starts degrading.

I want to by a "Prosumer" level camera that will stand up to the use and last 4 or 5 years. Since I have HD editing capability in Premier Pro, and have HD equipment in my house, I am interested in HD capabilities as well. I am torn between the HDR-FX1 or HVR-A1U. What do you folks think, is one better suited to what I do than the other? Are these the right cameras to be looking at? Is there some other camera that might be a better choice ? Educated and experienced opinions would be very much appreciated.

Don't have the A1, but do have the FX1. It is rugged and dependable. Battery life is great, as is usual with Sony. Great picture. You will like the full manual capability, and controls are easy to operate.

Sony's FX7 is coming out soon, as is V1 It is has smaller sensors, but is CMOS. Its size is a bit smaller than FX1, more the size of a PD150 or VX2100, if you have seen those cameras.

Incidentally, for best low light performance, the Sony VX2100/PD150 cams are still low light champs, but aren't high def. In that sense, the technology in them is getting old. But last month, I used them my VX in a play where lighting was bad, and came out with a very nice image...

Canon has its own new HD camera, which seems close to FX1... you may want to check it out too.

I have a Sony Z1U and A1U. This is an interesting decision because the A1 actually has features of the Z1 that the FX1 doesn’t have (like XLR inputs, Black-stretch, Cinema-Tone 2, more downconvert options, etc.). Still the pictures quality of the Z1/FX1 in low light is better than the A1 (the A1 is noticeably noisier in low/indoor light). Since you are shooting outdoors this is probably not a problem (unless you are shooting night games that may be poorly lit)

You also have to consider the price. The A1U is $2199 USD at B&H (after $300 rebate) and the FX1 is $3149 so that’s roughly $1000 more! Does the FX1 give you $1000 better picture? Probably not. Between the FX1 and A1U, IMHO, the A1U is a better deal for the money right now unless low-light performance is required.

I love my Z1 but what I like about the A1U is that it’s small. I can take it places I would never take the Z1. Last week I went to the Intrepid Sea, Air & Space Museum here in NYC. I took the lens hood and XLR pack off the A1U and it looked just like any other handy-cam. I was able to go anywhere and film anything like a tourist without even raising an eyebrow that I was getting some killer HD footage. So the A1U doubles as an HD “vacation cam” for me. It may be perfect for you too.

~jr

I have to agree size and "look" of the FX1 sometimes turns me off to taking the camera to an event. I find myself taking my Panny GS120 a lot. It definitely will catch attention and be obtrusive. That is less of a problem with my VX2000, which is similar in size, as I under stand it, to the V1.

The thing that turned me off in looking at the A1 was the access to features. As I understood it, a lot of the adjustments are by touch screen, which means you have to have LCD open.. Am I wrong about that ?

I do shoot night games, and they can be very well lit, or not so well lit depending on what school they are taking place at. Of course, right now I am shooting those with a Sony DCR-TRV520, so unless the low light performance of the A1U would not be at least as good as that camera, it wouldn't necessaarily be an issue.

Also, this summer we took a vacation to Philli, followed by DC. I did some shooting inside a WWII submarine in Philli and did a lot of shooting inside the Air and Space Museum in DC. Mostly just documenting the trip for future viewing on a lazy Sunday afternoon. I don't really want to lose that ability or be forced to have another camera for those kind of things.

You mentioned the ability to "go anywhere and film anything like a tourist without even raising an eyebrow ..." with the A1U. Are you saying that you would not have been able to do that with the FX1 ? If so...why, because of its size? or are you saying that because it is a more Professional camera you may not be allowed to film in some public places? I have seen comments eluding to this before, but never really understood this limitation.

So, would the look of the footage from the A1U match the Z1U better than any of the newer models V1/FX7 ? I would like a smaller "audience" camera, and the A1U seems to fit the bill. Is it that much noisier ? The only new features of the V1/FX7 I really like are those super high frame rate recording modes for action photography.

This is my biggest beef with the Sony A1U. The touch screen is a problem for me because I always shoot with a hood which makes the touch screen extremely inaccessible. I bought Nintendo DS picks which are just long enough to access the screen with the hood on.

~jr

Both are true. 1) I could not have run around the ship lugging the Z1U like I did with the A1U. I mean the A1U fits in the palm your hand. It’s very easy to navigate stairways and other small places, especially crowded ones. 2) Some places will not let you in with a Pro camera. I know some museums are like that. I don’t know if the Intrepid allows it but I wasn’t lugging the Z1 around for a day with the family anyway. I bought a Kata waste pouch for it and just put it away when I wasn’t using it.

The other advantage to the A1U is the weight. I bought a spider-brace and the A1U is very light so you can hold it a lot longer without getting tired than you can the Z1U.

~jr

I haven’t seen the V1/FX7 so I can’t say how well it would match the Z1 but the A1 matches pretty easily in good light. Perhaps Douglas Spotted Eagle can give his views. He has used all three cameras.

Well, it is noticeable depending on the situation. I noticed it the first day I was using it indoors and so I put the two cameras side-by-side just to check. The Z1 definitely had less noise. According to the specs, the A1U is 7 lux and the Z1U/FX1 is 3 lux and the FX7 is 4 lux.

On the other hard, the A1U CMOS sensors have less smear than a CCD and so for night sports games the A1U might actually do better under the bright lights.

~jr

all i know is.. you can't do what i do with a FX1 or Z1u
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y293/thevish/A1U.jpg

Video footage here..
www.thevishfiles.com/kaleheo.wmv
50 something meg.

Thanks for the input guys. It is really appreciated. At this point I am leaning toward the A1U, although I am still a little bothered by two points: the poor low light performance and the size of the camera. I actually am a little bothered by the small size...especially with HD. Doesn't the small size/light weight make it more prone to picking up shake when hand held ? What is the spider-brace you referred to John ?

Yes...you can. We did pre-race footage with a Bonehead FlatTop Pro helmet and an A1u for CMT programming. We shoot quite a few BMX events here, all of them with either the HC3 or the A1u. Z1 is too heavy, no doubt. BMX and MotoX both use the same helmet and camera assembly with a Bonehead or Cookie Composites D Box.

so your saying you've stuck an fx1, on your helmet?
cause the only thing i stuck on mine was my a1u

I wouldn’t let the low light thing bother you unless you were shooting weddings. Sports events are usually well lit so this shouldn’t be a problem.

The SpiderBrace is a cleaver little device that lets you shoulder mount your camera. Like I said, it works better with my A1U than my Z1U because the A1 is lighter and therefore I can hold it longer without getting tired. If you can’t use a tripod because you need to be mobile, the SpiderBrace is a nice alternative and it’s very reasonably priced ($65 USD). Lots of people here at DVInfo.net use them (that’s how I found out about them) and I love mine.

~jr

I've stuck a Z1 on my helmet, yes. But unless you're specifically conditioned to do this, and have a LOT of experience, I highly advise you not do it, or you could end up with a serious neck injury. I started with PC109s and worked my way up to 35mm film cam, and it's not an easy progression. You also need a helmet made to hold/distribute the heavy weight, such as the Flat top.
A universal helmet mount will not cut it.

Tape playback question....
 

As I wrote in the start of this thread, I film a lot of sporting events for the coaches, and to do highlight films for the kids every year. The Sony consumer camcorders I have been using have only been lasting me a year and a half or so before they start giving me problems playing back the recorded tapes. I shoot about 35 to 40 reels (tapes) over that time period. I clean the head with a cleaning tape about every second time I use the camera. Although I am very gentle with them, the transport mechanisms just don't seem to stand up and the video quality starts to degrade over that time period. This, and better quality video, are what is driving my decision to spring for a pro or prosumer model camera like the A1U or the FX1.

So, one more question I need to ask....is the fact that I play back these tapes through the camera for capturing going to continue to be a problem like this with the A1U or FX1 ? Is the transport mechanism any more robust in these cameras than the ~$500 consumer camcorders? Or..am I going to find that I need another playback device to save the camera anyway? This makes a huge difference to me, since it appears that a playback device for mini-dv tapes is a couple of grand in addition to the camera.

heads
 

i think all that cleaning you are doing might be the problem. "every second tape" sounds like an awful lot. it is a destructive process for your heads. i've been using my fx1 full time for almost two years now, have run tape cleaner maybe three times - only after dropouts show.

Emmet, what does "Full time" mean in terms of tapes? How many tapes have you shot in that year? Was the camera used to play all of them for capture?

Everyone: got the advise on the cleaner tape. To be honest though, this is what I was originally doing before the first camera failed, and the guy told me to clean it more often - only when the camera called for it to be done.

heads
 

full time = my job. about thirty 3-4 minute edtied films, from original tapes - about 60 tapes. all captured via fx1. camera has her quirks but about 1/3 those tapes were shot in winter conditions, on backcountry skis, hand held while snowboarding etc.

OK, so what I think I am getting from all of this is that:

1) My consumer cameras are probably just plain wearing out the head from playing back and rewinding tapes much more frequently (about 80 hrs of video per year) than the casual user would.
2) Using the cleaning tape more frequently than is called for is adding to the premature head wear.
3) Going to a prosumer camera alone is not going to help the situation. I am going to need to use an external rewind and/or playback device to avoid wearing the head at such a high rate.

So, I'm looking at $2500-$3000 for a prosumer HD camera and another $2000 for a HD DV playback device, or direct to disk device.

Now I'm starting to consider SD again. I can buy a good SD camera for around $2000, and can use a cheap $200 consumer camera with ilink as a DV rewind/playback deck. If I go through one of those a year, who cares.

IS my thinking correct here ?

There are little Mini DV rewinders as cheap as $20-50 bucks.

Just using a rewinder is enough?

Be aware that when fast-forwarding or rewinding your tape in your camera, the heads are NOT in contact with the tape. ie. there is no tape-head wear during this process.

I don't think a rewinder will have any effect on saving your camera except reduce wear on the winding motors and i don't think those tend to fail at all.

Certainly the thing to avoid is tape head wear.

One thing i just though of :
When you're in 'TAPE' mode, and you're not actually filming anything, (ie. in STBY mode) i would definitely POWER DOWN the camcorder for anything more than say 30seconds of non-use. The tape head WILL be spinning agains the tape and will be wearing both the tape and more improtantly the head.
Do you have the "power camera down after x minutes" option selected? I would certainly have this enabled.

No, and this is a very good point in my case, because I tape a lot of HS football games. To get an entire game on a single tape, and to make for a good review tape, I only record the plays. That is to say I press record, capture the play, then press record again for standby mode. When the next play is lining up, I press record again...and so on. I have the camera sitting in standby mode as often as its recording. Timewise, the standby time may even exceed the actual record time.

It sounds like I would be better off using two tapes per game (one for each half), let each one run for a full half and then change tapes at half time. I can edit out the dead time in post. It sounds like this would significantly improve the head life I am experiencing.

Decisions...
 

I am now looking at both the A1U and the FX1. I have the cash for either but would really like to know which is going to be the best fit for us. We film all different types of scenes. We do have a lighting kit, so low light isn't an issue. I just want the best possible picture. Can someone make a suggestion without listing any other cameras? Is CMOS better than CCD? The FX1 looks pretty sweet, the A1U looks more amateurish. Regardless, I just want the best of the two added to our stock, help!

As I said, I own both the Z1 and A1 and there is no denying that the Z1/FX1 has the better picture. It also has "physical" manual controls, not the touch screen stuff that's on the A1. I love my A1 but IMHO, the touch screen limits its usefulness.

Yup, get the FX1! You will be glad you did.

~jr

Or.... get the new FX7. It is smaller and lighter and has image quality comparable to FX1. Plus its 3CMOS, so you don't get the CCD vertical smear problem. Also Sony have made substantial progress on their EIP engine combining with the 3-CMOS-Clearvid sensors and it will handle highlights very well.

It's currently available at www.bhphoto.com for $2799 i believe (may be special offer):
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

Great so now I am tossed between the FX1 and the FX7, LOL>...

Attached a light monopod when you need it. My pre-HDV setup was a Sony VX2000 and a smaller Panasonic GS250, both with optical stabilizers. To reduce vertical shake, I added monopods to both. Smaller cameras are easier to handle when the monopod is extended from chin level to waist level. You can grip the monopod with your left hand or just tuck it into your belly above your belt. There is a belt attachment for the monopod, but even after buying it, I never felt compelled to use it. A thin monopod gets shakey when fully-extended, so I avoid that situation with the above techniques.

But it's a 'nice' problem to have !!
Do as much research as you can, decide your priorities on what you need, what you'd like, size&weight etc. Nobody ever said life was easy.... ;-)

Thanks Stu,

I'm leaning toward the FX1, I like bigger cameras, the smaller ones seem to shake too much in my hands. 24p isn't a huge deal for me yet. That touchscreen feature doesn't attract me at all, mental reception would be nice, lol. CMOS seems a little too new for me to mess with, I'm just getting good at manual CCD cams. I always do MUCH research when it comes to higher dollar purchases so it could end up being a Panny too, but I am in love with Sony so far, my VX2100 is so happy with me :-)

I also pit the A1U vs. the FX1 for a second HDV camera. I needed the FX1 for a shoot before the FX7 was available, but I still don't regret having the FX1. For me, better lower light performance is more important.

So would you have gotten the FX7 instead?

Since matching footage was more important to me, I bought the FX1 to match my Z1U. The FX1 is rated better for low-light performance, and that is also very important in my decision. So, even today, I would buy the FX1 over the FX7. I like the updated features in the FX7, but the 1/4" CMOS technology just isn't for me.

Interesting use of the monopod.

How do you attach the monopod to your belly? I mean: do you still keep it vertical?

Uses for the monopod is something very interesting, as it's probably a more practical tool than I thought it would be.

I bought a Manfrotto 682B last year, because it came with three retractable feet at the other end. Those feet allow you to mime a tripod. To improve on the limited angles, you can still buy a swivel-tilt monopod head, that will allow more adjustments.

Telescoped or not, you can still use the monopod as a steadycam, adding some weight to counterbalance the camera.

And apparently there's some shoulder extension that you can buy for it.

The monopod is unattached to my belly. Since I do closeup martial arts footage, it's important to be able to sit down to get at eye-level for groundfighting. Then, the monopod sits on the ground. I've tried a shoulder brace, but I prefer this method.

I also use this method for still photography with 300mm and 400mm lenses. They are much easier to hold with that monopod, though I should try using that shoulder brace more often.

I steered clear of any monopod with feet. Knowing myself, I (or my casual assistants) would leave the mono-tripod unattended for a moment and the image device would smash on the concrete floor.

Good point. I tried a small tripod unextended and taped three tubes filled with NiMH AA batteries (interesting storage location) to my monopod for one trip. It didn't work nearly as well as I had thought as I didn't have a need for foot-zooming. The whole setup was just heavier.

Yes, even if the monopod has feet, you still have to think of it as a monopod. So it can't be left unattended.

But it becomes a more flexible tool if you have the feet. It worked for me. These past few weeks I have been editing a whole documentary I made with the "3-feet monopod". I just walked a few feet away so the person wouldn't talk to the camera or look at it, though lately I have changed that modus operandi. Interviews get more personal when when the interviewee is looking just to the side of the camera.

About the steadycam-like use, the monopod can also be used as a poor-man boom arm, extending it forward and up over your shooting area. The question is how to view what your are framing. And for that I have to think on some small LCD that can be clamped quickly on the monopod, so I can see my shot and frame it correctly.