Adam, thanks much! That's very useful info and I do appreciate it. I've never heard of some of these guys. I've bought a lot of stuff from B&H, but when it comes to a $4,000 cam, you'd like to save on the tax.

Ship it to me :-) I live 15 min away from B&H but in NJ. Then come over same day and pick it up. Hit me up with PM and I'll help you out.

That's a great idea.

Jeez, Jeff, chill. No one attacked you or your preferred vendor. I was just speaking generally. And you shouldn't assume someone doesn't "understand" something just because they follow a different buying paradigm.

For the record, I meant no disrespect to Full Compass or anyone who chooses to buy there. I was just sharing why it wasn't right for me.

Ken,

Here's another 2 pages with a lot of good info on prices, reviews and blogs.

hvr-z5u shopping

and hvr-z5u reviews & articles

As a long-term Z1 owner I remember seeing the Z7 for the first time a year ago and feeling rather underwhelmed, strangely. The EX1 was something else - a great leap forward, but the Z7 just seemed a bit so-so really.

Why would one move from the Z1 to an uglier 7? Interchangeable lenses for sure, but where were they - and most importantly, where was the wide-wideangle? It still had 1"/3 chips, the lens wasn't appreciably longer and it seemed a bit of a sideways step to me.

Then along came the Z5 and Sony's plan becomes clearer. It seems to be the rightful Z1 replacement with real step-up attributes (CF writer, 20x zoom, three NDs and so on). Shame it has CMOS for us wedding and event shooters, but hey, two steps forward and half a step back isn't too bad.

I wonder what Sony's sales figures say about the Z5 and Z7? Obviously the Z7 had a good head start, but did other Z1 owners feel as I did, that it wasn't the replacement for them?

tom.

Thanks very much for the offer Lukas, but I have a sister-in-law who lives in N.J. and I can always send it there. But again thanks for the offer.

Thanks again Adam. It's funny how when you call up the prices on the Z5U for some of these links, it gives you the prices for the Z1U when you go to the store's site.

Not a problem.

I just realized that to avoid tax you would have to put NJ in billing adress as well. Am I Right? Can someone verify it?

I think it is only based on the shipping address, not the billing address.

Tom, I tend to agree with your thoughts on the Z7U. Also, how many people can afford to be different lenses for the Z7U ? They are expensive, so to me, that would defeat the purpose of even buying a Z7U.

I, too, felt that the Z7 was not a logical successor to the Z1, since I don't really need interchangeable lenses and the increased cost is a bit much for my budget. But now that I ponder upgrading to a Z5, the Z7 has started to look more appealing. The cost difference isn't that much compared to a Z5 + CF recorder, and the faster lens is very appealing if you don't need the 20x. To me the extra half stop at 12x zoom (f2.0 for the Z7 vs. probably f2.8 for the Z5, if it ramps similarly to the Z1 lens) is very valuable. And if the 1.5x digital zoom really does look good, as some have reported, then you can jump to 18x if you really want that close-up. But it's still a bit over-budget, and apparently the resale value of my Z1 is plummeting as we speak.

I know I'm not the first to wish that Sony had just come out with a 16x9 version of the PD170.

-Terence

Hmmm. Z5 or Z7?
 

I now have a Z7 and I would have to agree that the Z5 might be a better choice for a lot of people. I played with a FX1000 for about 10 days so I can draw some comparisons. Obviously the Z5/FX1000 have more zoom (I love that 20x zoom) while the Z7 offers interchangeable lenses. Surprisingly the layout of the buttons is very similar but feel completely different. The buttons on the left side of the FX1000 seem to be recessed more and it makes them much harder to use. And the rolling selector wheel is much easier to use on the Z7. I don't know why Sony chose to make that small change but I think the Z7 is better in that respect. But that is a pretty minor issue over all. I think if you never intend to get any other lenses or use any other lenses with a Z7, you should probably go with the Z5/FX1000 because it can match pretty much any thing the Z7 can do for less money. Even if both have the MRC1, the Z5 comes out a few bucks cheaper, I think. IMO where the Z7 starts to shine is with the addition of a true broadcast style lens. In that case, you now have a camera that will be familiar and comfortable to any shooter who has used pro cameras in the past. I have used Sony's servo control lenses for many years but I have always hated them even though I thought the cameras were great. Fortunately, with the Z5/FX1000, Sony has fixed some of the servo lens problems. Since I was brought up (so to speak) on broadcast cameras and lenses, I feel like I am coming back home with the Z7. I would imagine that it is the same reason that a lot of shooters like the JVC 1xx - 2xx series of camcorders and are so loyal to them. You do loose auto-focus and image stabilization, but that is OK with me. If I need those features I will stick the standard lens back on. And one big plus with a broadcast lens is it can out perform the Z5/fx1000 in low light. I can get f1.4 at full wide and f1.4 at full telephoto, compared to f1.6 on the wide end and f3.4 at full telephoto of the Z5. But to get those extra f-stops, you will have to spend more money. Then they are not the same price anymore. The bottom line is that the Z7/Z5/FX1000 are all awesome camcorders that offer an amazing amount of bang for the buck. They are more similar than they are different. I could be happy with any of them.

You're right. But they needed to do that years ago. Like Sony and others did with their pro cameras that were 4x3/16x9 switchable SD cameras. Now, those really high dollar SD pro cameras are on Ebay for too little money. Sadly, that era is fading fast. Sadly, because I still have one of those beautiful "industry standard" BetacamSP cameras that cost a small fortune and now it almost isn't worth selling. It is time to look to the future.

Z5 vs. Z7
 

Actually, Z7 at B&H is now $4 cheaper than Z5 + MRC1 ($4,879.95 vs. $4,099 + $884.95)...
Practically, the same price... Still cannot make my choice between them...

Things I am considering most - Z7's faster lens (approx. 1/2 stop @12x zoom), though Z5's is a bit wider: 29.5 mm vs. 32mm, and longer: 20x vs. 12x, and the placement of the cold shoe, where my light is placed - too close to the screen to open/close... Interchangeable lens for the same price is a bonus - I don't think I need it, neither can afford another one, but you never know...

Also, can anyone compare auto-focus on Z5 and Z7?

Good arguments you put forward Greg, but the Z7's 12x Zeiss lens does ramp - losing half a stop as it goes from f/1.6 to f/2. (f/1.6 to f/2.4 for the 8x wideangle). Still pretty good as you say, and a valuable stop better than the Z5 at the same focal length.

Ilya's in the same boat as I am - torn between the two cameras as a Z1 upgrade.

Sony's official pdf on the Z5 doesn't list - anywhere in all 6 pages - the maximum aperture of the zoom at any of its focal lengths. This is a *Camera* and they don't tell you the zoom's maximum aperture?? Who writes this stuff?

tom.

Page 30 of the Z5 Operating Manual says you can adjust the aperture of the lens between F1.6 and F11. Then on page 129 of the OM it talks about the G len's characteristics.

I really just wonder how this camera's PQ (picture quality) compares with the Panasonic
AG-HMC150. Have you considered that at all. Or do you just want to stay with HDV codec?

So they fail to mention that this is only true at just one of the 76 focal lengths that are available on the zoom lens?

I was trying to show you that they did list an F stop range for at least one or more zoom ranges. I must have mis read your post saying you couldn't find any F stop range.

Telling you what the maximum aperture is in the instruction book is a bit late, don't you think Douglas? There's pages about the camera on pdf format for prospective buyers on the Sony site, with one whole page devoted to 'specifications'. Nowhere is the f stop mentioned.

They wouldn't get far trying to sell their Alpha DSLRs like this. It's fine to ignore the max aperture when selling diddy-cams, but the Z5 is touted as a pro piece of kit.

Tom, now that the money has been spent, I am not suffering from any buyers remorse at all. I am extremely happy with my choice of the Z7. Actually, I am excited about the prospect of spending a little more money to build on this platform. For example, getting the Tapia Nikon lens adapter for that bag full of Nikon lenses I already have.

One thing to remember is that with the Z5 you cal also record on tape as well.

Stelios

...as you can with the Z7...

Adam I was under the impression that the Z7 records only on flash memory.

Stelios

You might be thinking of the EX1/3. Anything with a "Z" in the front shoots to tape. Z7 does both tape and cards via the MRC1 unit, according to both Sony and B&H. Z5 is tape only.

The z5 as it comes from the factory records to tape. The MRC1 unit does hook right on it and then the z5 can record to both (even simultaneously) as it looks to me. I do not own the unit myself, but have been looking at it from afar (somewhat longingly).

No. The Z5 is tape and MRC1

Yes, sorry, I meant out of the box, as the Z5 doesn't come with the unit but the Z7 does. I think any cam with FW can record to the MRC1, although my understanding is that device control of the MRC may only be supported on certain models (although here I may be thinking of the HDD unit).

Edit: found it. From the Brochure for both the MRC1 and the DR60:

Versatile Recording Modes
Three recording modes can be selected to support
various camcorder models and operational needs.
SYNCHRO mode
When using camcorders that support external rec
control, such as the HVR-Z5U, HVR-V1U, HVR-Z1U,
DSR-450WS, DSR-400 and DSR-250, recording to the
HVR-MRC1 or HVR-DR60 is directly controlled by the
press of the camcorder’s rec start button.*3
*3 In this mode, a rec start delay of approximately 0.5 seconds
may occur after the camcorder rec start button is pressed.
FOLLOW mode
When using camcorders that do not support
external rec control, such as the HVR-A1U and
DSR-PD170, the FOLLOW mode can be used to start
and stop recording by the HVR-MRC1 or HVR-DR60.
In this mode, the HVR-MRC1 or HVR-DR60
periodically checks whether the camcorder is in rec
mode or not, and follows this status.*4
*4 In this mode, a rec start delay of up to 2 seconds may occur
after the camcorder rec start button is pressed.
Independent Recording
The HVR-MRC1 and HVR-DR60 can disregard the rec
trigger or recording status of the camcorder and
allow recording to be started and stopped using it’s
own control buttons. This allows control of the
HVR-DR60 independent of camcorder operations.*5
*5 In HDV mode, interruptions in time code and video may
appear in the recording when the camcorder rec control
buttons are pressed.

Here's a link to the whole brochure. The list above is on page 5.

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/f...re_Final08.pdf

On the Z5 (don't know about the Z7, as I don't have one) there are several ways the camera can control the MRC1 - including RELAY, allowing you to continuously record for hours by recording to memory card whilst changing tapes (with overlap of course).

If you change the tape while the camera runs doesn't that 'shake' the camera shot?. I don't have a Z5 but I would think changing tapes while recording would ruin a shot.

The Z7 does external (MRC1), synchronous (MRC1 and tape at the same time) and relay recording. When relay recording is selected the tape records first. When the tape reaches 5 minutes remaining the camera automatically starts recording on the CF unit. If your tripod will not hold the camera steady, you will probably see movement. The manual tells you that you will hear the noise of the tape changing proceedure. I would assume the Z5 would copy this scheme.

Has anyone test shot a Z5 and an FX1000, according to the video on B&H, the only difference is the XLR inputs. At B&H the Fx1000 lists at $3199.99 and the Z5 lists at $4099.99 I find it hard to justify the price difference for XLR inputs when I already own an XLR adapter. Anyone know the answer here from experience or demo? Thanks!

It is my understanding that the differences are XLR, shockless gain and WB changes and MRC1 clips directly to the camera rather than being connected by an iLink cable in the case of the FX1000. So it is a neater package if used with the MRC1 and if one needs the shockless features.
The basic units are otherwise the same so I see no reason the performance shouldn't be the same either. Run and gun users may find the Z5's features a plus over the FX1000 though. Even for my hobby the shockless gain would be a real advantage in some circumstances though connecting the MRC1 with a cable wouldn't really be such a handicap for me.
Ron Evans

Additionally, the Z5 does native 24p while the FX1000 does 24p over 60i. And the firmware is different, so there are a bunch more menu settings in the Z5 (much like the Z1 vs. the FX1). Debatable whether they are worth the price difference. Really an individual choice.

Lots of discussion about the differences between to two cousins here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-hvr-...0-hvr-z5j.html

Adam thanks for the link. I just poured through the 13 pages of discussion on that thread and from what i can tell it is 9 pages of speculation before the product was even released. The links out on the thread go to documents I remember reading last year and no new information. i saw a lot of comparisons between the Z7 and this line (probably because some people had Z7's at that time) but very little comparison between the FX1000 and Z5U. Also that thread has been closed by CH, so that brings me back to my question.

Has anyone on here actually shot with an FX1000 and a Z5U and can they give firsthand testimonial to what the differences are other than XLR audio inputs, 24p, and MRC attach point?

I never shot with Z1 or Fx1, so that doesn't really translate well for me. I have seen some of Jeff Harper's footage with the FX1000 and it seems awesome but is the Z5 any better?

I have not seen the notation about the FX1000 not doing 24p but that is okay because i don't fool with 24p, did it with the XL2 and saw no benefit only additional headaches in the workflow. But good intel on that because another thread reader that might be important to.

Rob-"shockless gain and WB changes" I haven't heard that term before. Are you saying that the transitions are smooth rather than the harsh changes we expect here? Which model has this feature and which does not? I can see how the WB would be a good feature (like following the bride and groom from inside to out with a smooth transition in WB) but I lock gain when i shoot so I dont usually change it. (personal pref)

MRC1 attachment, yeah i forgot that one, the B&H vid noted that too. Fx1000=no mrc1 attachpoint (but you can mount shoe or other) and Z5U attaches over battery.

So in summation we have
FX1000 24p over 60i / Z5U 24p
Fx1000 no MRC attachment point/Z5U direct attach
FX1000 no XLR / Z5U XLR

still fuzzy on gain and WB settings and which settings the firmware adds to Z5U not available on Fx1000.. Any thing else to justify the $900.00 price difference and the reason B&H lists FX1000 under consumer cams and Z5U under prosumer/ENG?

Looking to decide soon. Thanks and sorry about the long post.

I think you've probably nailed the main differences. In terms of the different menus, I suppose the best way to compare is to download the manuals (readily available everywhere) and open up two PDF windows and compare them.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/hdrfx1000.pdf beginning on page 64.

http://www.docs.sony.com/release/hvrz5u.pdf beginning on page 66.

(By the way, many Sony manuals are available at this link if you just plug in the exact model number in exactly this format at the end. Make sure you get the prefix right -- hdr is consumer and hvr is pro -- and leave out the hyphen. No rhyme or reason as to which ones are or aren't available, though.)

Hi,

Z5U functions that FX1000 doen't have:

-selectable rec mode between 24p over 60i and 24p native (FX1000 = 24p over 60i only)
-DVCAM mode (FX1000 = DV only)
-XLR and related audio settings
-more detail settings in picture profile for cinema making (e.g. gammma, color matrix)
-MRC1 direct attachment without cabling
-MRC1 status display on LCD
-higher quality mode in slow-motion function
-optional remote controller RM-1000BP is fully available
-quick zooming mode
-camera setting storing on memory stick card (FX1000= internal memory only)
-smooth changing of gain and WB
etc.

I don't know what this means, and is a PAL Z5 any different?
The FX1000 has LP mode in place of DVCAM, right? My second cam is an FX1 at the moment and many's the time the LP mode has saved the day when the bride is very late.

tom.

Yes. The more solid your tripod, the less likely you are to get movement as you change the tape. I've just finished a live Panto shoot using this method and looking through the rushes (on the CF card), there is no obvious indication of where the tape was changed. I guess it would depend to some extent on how gentle you are. One issue though, is trying to follow the action whilst juggling with tapes! Not recommended for fast-moving sports events, I would think.

As far as hearing the tape change - of course that would depend on your microphone setup. I wasn't using on-camera mic, so it wasn't an issue but you would almost certainly hear the tape change if you were using the built-in mic (or the [Z5] supplied camera-mounted shotgun mic). The production team had the whole stage area mic'd up, so I took a feed from their desk on one channel and used a Rode NTG2 attched to the lighting gantry in front of the stage on the other channel as back-up (just in case some div decided to unplug me, or turn the volume down accidently - it was an "amateur" production, after all).

However, I am aware of some air-conditioning unit noise in parts of the sound-track (monitoring via headphones, the mics seem to have picked up some fan noise [audio - not electrical] which the live audience won't have even noticed through the PA), so I'm going to have to try and sort that during post. I recorded over 3 performances from different view-points, so I'm hoping I'll be able to cut-away sufficiently to "lose" the noisy bits (if they are actually noticable on playback). (the AC units won't have come on and off at exactly the same points in the 3 performances - I hope!)

I'm still in France at the moment and won't be able to start editing until I get back home (to Jersey) but I'm really impressed with the Z5's low light capability. As well as shooting the Panto itself, I also did some backstage shooting during one of the performances (for the "making of" extras) and even managed to get a shot of the assistant director on hands and knees under the stage (for attaching the beanstalk to the pully rope through the trap-door) in virtual total darkness. Obviously I couldn't use a camera light backstage, as the audience would have been distracted by it through the wings.

Adam - thanks for the manual links, comparing them side by side i can see now some of the subtle differences. Even in supplied hardware-separate dual charger, shipping with NP-F770 vs the useless NP-F570... perhaps $900 is worth it after all.

Kenny-Thanks for the breakdown, very helpful!

Steve- I have been fortunate enough to see some FX1000 footage, but haven't seen any Z5U footage yet. Do you think you might be able to share a couple clips with us when you get time?

To all-
IMHO, I must say, most of the reviews I have read have been a little disappointing, not about the camera though, it was the reviews themselves. They would spend a lot of time talking about one model or the other and then sum up with something to the effect of "very similar cameras." For the informed buyer, it makes it hard to decide if no one is pointing out actual differences. Maybe because the release dates were apart they figured we already covered the FX1000 a month ago, now let's talk about Z5U... Thank you so much for helping out here. You guys are great!

Bryan, the other thing that isn't oftentimes mentioned, is the weight. The Z5 weighs another 1/2lb. This may not seem like much, but if you do a lot of hand holding, I think that 1/2lb can be significant.

This is really something I'm wrestling with since I do a lot of hand held shots in my work. As far as shockless goes, you can, in theory, do shockless with the 'shot transition' feature in the FX1000. This will enable a smooth ramping for most picture parameters, including gain, WB etc. Of course this will require advanced planning and doesn't really fall into the 'run & gun' philosophy.

On another note, I finally got a chance to play with an FX1000 today at Sony Style in N.Y. I brought a tape with me which I took home and played on my Canon HV20. I was extremely impressed with the picture quality! The colors were dead-on and the sharpness & detail was very impressive. I actually brought my Canon HG21 (1920X1080) cam along to compare the HD results. The overall HD picture quality of the FX1000 was quite a bit better and truly surprised me. I say that because the HG21 is one very very sharp cam with tons of detail. But the FX1000 picture had a 'quietness' and openness on my 60" Kuro that was truly stunning!

I also tried using the cam in DV mode and even there I thought the results were quite good. Unfortunately I didn't have my VX2100 with me to compare, but I'm willing to bet the colors are more accurate on the FX1000. As far as DV sharpness & detail, I just couldn't tell without an A/B from my VX2100.

Going back to the weight issue, I could tell the extra weight of the FX1000 relative to my VX2100 was pretty significant despite the nice balance of the 1000. That's when it really hit me if I wanted the extra 1/2lb of the Z5. So I need to wrestle with the issue of the digital recorder fitting very nicely on the Z5 (which I'd probably only use occasionally where I absolutely needed a backup) vs. the extra weight. There are other differences as has been discussed, but I can live without them and don't find them a necessity. So it's really going to boil down to the weight issue vs. the features.

Decisions, decisions.