Z7U or EX1...tough decision.

Tim Polster · February 11th, 2008, 11:50 PM

I must say, I don't quite understand this camera's pricepoint.

If the Z7 and the Ex-1 cost basically the same for the camera, the 1/2" chip model is the choice.

The main draw seems to be the option to put a 35mm adapter directly on the body, but I don't think I want to give up chip real estate & bit rate just for that.

Although the CF card sounds nice.

I don't know why Sony did not put 1/2" chips in this camera and sell it for a little more than the EX-1, like the EX-1a.

Once you use larger chips, it is hard to justify using anything less.

Carl Middleton · February 12th, 2008, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Polster

If the Z7 and the Ex-1 cost basically the same for the camera, the 1/2" chip model is the choice.

They really seem to be quite different in price - just because of the SxS cards, hard drives or bluray for archive, etc etc.... Laptops and card readers for field offload.... After all is said and done, you're paying a good bit more for the EX.... I'm personally holding out for a 35mbps solid state/tape (or bluray) with interchangeable lenses, under 10k. That's my personal holy grail, until then, I can achieve a greater improvement to my video, personally, by investing in filters, lighting, and audio....

C

Tom Hardwick · February 12th, 2008, 02:37 AM

Such a great thread, guys. Not a silly question at all Carl, and manufacturer's published low-lux levels are invariably non-interchangeable between manufacturers and I'm even beginning to think between different models from the same manufacturer.

If you jump from 1/25th sec to 1/60th sec you'll need to more than double the amount of light in the room to get the same exposure on tape, but getting this figure into lux levels is not so easy.

So the offers from people like Phil and Laurence to test them side-by-side (as John Beale has done so extensively with the VX and FX) is really the only true comparison to make. That way we can find out if zero dB of gain up really is zero, or if there's a sneaky electronic boost being applied at all times just to keep up in this race.

tom.

Mike Paterson · February 12th, 2008, 04:08 AM

Agreed - we need a shootout.

Tim Polster · February 12th, 2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Middleton

They really seem to be quite different in price - just because of the SxS cards, hard drives or bluray for archive, etc etc.... Laptops and card readers for field offload.... After all is said and done, you're paying a good bit more for the EX....

I would have to say the extra $2,000 or so is worth the chip size and bit rate jump to me.

After thinking about this a bit more, if Sony would have made the EX-1 and an interchangeable lens version (a la JVC 200), they could have impacted Panasonic and JVC with one camera release.

I don't think this camera (Z7) will sell very well at $6,500.

Monday Isa · February 12th, 2008, 08:46 AM

Hey Tim,
I agree with your stance on the difference between the EX1 and The Z7. Purchasing the EX1 is the better choice for me as I don't have 3 to 6 cameras to replace. I would only replace 1 as I do solo shooting with a back up cam at my events. I do see how the Z7 fits better for most event videographers. I can name quite a few that are actually purchasing these camcorders. I think it will still do well but it won't have a huge market to work with. There are quite a few event videographers that have gone the EX1 route but they replace 2-3 cameras. I'm set on upgrading to the EX1 but am awaiting what Red has up there sleeve with Scarlet. If Scarlet is a very good option I will hold off and get that one but if not the EX1 is my option. I agree with many people here that the price of the Z7 is quite steep as I was hoping for it to land in the $5 g's.

Tim Polster · February 12th, 2008, 09:29 AM

I agree that a weak point for the EX-1 is long record times.

If/when I get an EX-1, for the time being, it will not be for my event work. It will be for specialty shooting.

The Scarlet camera might be a real gem, but the time to get it to market and get one in your hands might be a while.

It seems like we are on the verge of the HD market really opening up and offering some better value for the money.

I believe the EX-1 will force Panasonic & JVC to up the image quality for less money as 1/3" chip HD cameras can no longer sell anywhere close to the $6,000 range and expect to woo anybody.

The tough part is waiting to purchase!

Greg Hartzell · February 12th, 2008, 11:20 AM

Regarding the z7u, I really think it's too soon to say that: "Sony is going to have a hard time selling these cameras." I for one think that the improvements to this camera are well worth the price. Canon's xl-h1 currently sells for $8000, just to provide reference, and not with alot of features offered in the sony unit, albeit with an added sdi jack comming out the side.

Also, it seems to me that the Ex-1 is more geared towards projects using the larger xdcam hd cameras that need a smallish camera to fill the b cam, c cam role.

To say that the sub-$10,000 camcorder market will have to move up to 1/2" chips doesn't make sense to me. You can see the size difference between the two cameras, the ex1 looks absolutely massive compared with the z7u. Sony is the currently the only manufacturer who is putting out 1/2" hd cameras.

Sony is claiming this as gen 3 for hdv cameras. I can't wait to see some bench tests put out so we can actually see improvements to color fidelity and resolution over previous models and the cams from the competition.

Jim Nogueira · February 12th, 2008, 11:51 AM

With regard to the size comparison between the EX and Z7: I haven't seen either camera yet, but I don't believe that the EX is really gigantic compared to the Z7. Check out the picture on a page from Adam Wilt's review of the EX. Left to right: HVX200, PMW-EX1, HVR-Z1. The Z7 should be about the same size as the Z1 (or FX1).

http://provideocoalition.com/index.p..._camcorder/P1/

Laurence Kingston · February 12th, 2008, 12:26 PM

When you replace the Z7 lens with a wide angle lens instead of adding one on to the front of the regular lens, the Z7 will definitely be the shortest and lightest option.

Greg Hartzell · February 12th, 2008, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriel Chiefetz

Have you guys seen this size comparison of EX-1, Z7, and Z1?

http://blog.so-net.ne.jp/hamapro/2008-02-08

Look how gigantic the EX-1 is! Waahaha!

check the link out: yes, with the wide angle it seems the hv7 will be light and small indeed

Jim Nogueira · February 12th, 2008, 01:05 PM

You're right. I didn't check out the entire page. Light and small is good, as long as you can keep a steady handheld shot with it.

I've been going back and forth between the two cameras also. I wish that it cost less, but right now, the Z7 looks like the best fit for me.

Tim Polster · February 12th, 2008, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Hartzell

To say that the sub-$10,000 camcorder market will have to move up to 1/2" chips doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe my assertion about not being able to sell the Z7 is premature, but I am not sold on the 1/3" is the new 1/2" in HD.

Maybe I am crusty, but I moved up from 1/3" chips in the DV world, and I would like to stay at 1/2" or higher due to the higher quality image that results.

I believe the market will have to come down to what people are willing to pay (or what their clients will pay for) and in my view, once people start buying $100 Blu-Ray players, they are going to want HD at DV prices.

To me, $10,000 is a lot to pay for a 1/3" chip camera considering the DV equivalent yielded a 1/2" broadcast camera with a nice lens for less.

As a small business owner, I only have so much pricing power. I just do not see being able to charge double for HD services.

Greg Hartzell · February 12th, 2008, 04:19 PM

Tim,

This is fairly off topic, but I don't think you'll get your wish, at least not in the near future. Sony may indeed release a future gen of the s270 shoulder mount camera with half inch chips for under ten grand (or xdcam disc or solid state for that matter). While you might see a price drop in cameras, and while you may be right that the electronics are not that different and that 1/2" chips don't take that much more space than 1/3" chips, the glass in front of the camera is going to be more expensive and keep the price prohibitive for people like me and yourself. Thats what's so ground breaking about the EX1.

Keep in mind that ex1 only has a 14x zoom. If you look at broadcast glass in the 1/2" range, you're looking to spend at least $8k for the lens alone, not including camera, batteries, case, etc. In sd days, a cheap lens was fine to put in front of a 1/2" dv camera, but we're living in a hd world these days (I'm sure this is why Sony went with a 12x zoom instead of matching canon's 20x). I would be curious to put either camera (z7u or ex1) up next to your 1/2" dv camera and see the results. I'm sure either hd camera would blow the dv camera away. If you need an excuse to charge your clients more money, just claim that we're in a recession right now.

Chad Dyle · February 12th, 2008, 04:58 PM

It says available in Feb '08, but I thought we would have seen a review unit out before it was released. Does that scare anyone else?

February 12th, 2008, 08:46 AM	#66
Monday Isa Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: College Park, Maryland Posts: 913	Hey Tim, I agree with your stance on the difference between the EX1 and The Z7. Purchasing the EX1 is the better choice for me as I don't have 3 to 6 cameras to replace. I would only replace 1 as I do solo shooting with a back up cam at my events. I do see how the Z7 fits better for most event videographers. I can name quite a few that are actually purchasing these camcorders. I think it will still do well but it won't have a huge market to work with. There are quite a few event videographers that have gone the EX1 route but they replace 2-3 cameras. I'm set on upgrading to the EX1 but am awaiting what Red has up there sleeve with Scarlet. If Scarlet is a very good option I will hold off and get that one but if not the EX1 is my option. I agree with many people here that the price of the Z7 is quite steep as I was hoping for it to land in the $5 g's. Last edited by Monday Isa; February 12th, 2008 at 08:47 AM. Reason: mis spelled tims name. Sorry

February 12th, 2008, 11:51 AM	#69
Jim Nogueira Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Milford, MA Posts: 487	With regard to the size comparison between the EX and Z7: I haven't seen either camera yet, but I don't believe that the EX is really gigantic compared to the Z7. Check out the picture on a page from Adam Wilt's review of the EX. Left to right: HVX200, PMW-EX1, HVR-Z1. The Z7 should be about the same size as the Z1 (or FX1). http://provideocoalition.com/index.p..._camcorder/P1/ Last edited by Jim Nogueira; February 12th, 2008 at 12:02 PM. Reason: Should have included a quote

February 11th, 2008, 11:50 PM	#61
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	I must say, I don't quite understand this camera's pricepoint. If the Z7 and the Ex-1 cost basically the same for the camera, the 1/2" chip model is the choice. The main draw seems to be the option to put a 35mm adapter directly on the body, but I don't think I want to give up chip real estate & bit rate just for that. Although the CF card sounds nice. I don't know why Sony did not put 1/2" chips in this camera and sell it for a little more than the EX-1, like the EX-1a. Once you use larger chips, it is hard to justify using anything less.

February 12th, 2008, 02:37 AM	#63
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Such a great thread, guys. Not a silly question at all Carl, and manufacturer's published low-lux levels are invariably non-interchangeable between manufacturers and I'm even beginning to think between different models from the same manufacturer. If you jump from 1/25th sec to 1/60th sec you'll need to more than double the amount of light in the room to get the same exposure on tape, but getting this figure into lux levels is not so easy. So the offers from people like Phil and Laurence to test them side-by-side (as John Beale has done so extensively with the VX and FX) is really the only true comparison to make. That way we can find out if zero dB of gain up really is zero, or if there's a sneaky electronic boost being applied at all times just to keep up in this race. tom.

February 12th, 2008, 04:08 AM	#64
Mike Paterson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 99	Agreed - we need a shootout.

February 12th, 2008, 09:29 AM	#67
Tim Polster Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 2,231	I agree that a weak point for the EX-1 is long record times. If/when I get an EX-1, for the time being, it will not be for my event work. It will be for specialty shooting. The Scarlet camera might be a real gem, but the time to get it to market and get one in your hands might be a while. It seems like we are on the verge of the HD market really opening up and offering some better value for the money. I believe the EX-1 will force Panasonic & JVC to up the image quality for less money as 1/3" chip HD cameras can no longer sell anywhere close to the $6,000 range and expect to woo anybody. The tough part is waiting to purchase!

February 12th, 2008, 11:20 AM	#68
Greg Hartzell Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Columbia, CT Posts: 168	Regarding the z7u, I really think it's too soon to say that: "Sony is going to have a hard time selling these cameras." I for one think that the improvements to this camera are well worth the price. Canon's xl-h1 currently sells for $8000, just to provide reference, and not with alot of features offered in the sony unit, albeit with an added sdi jack comming out the side. Also, it seems to me that the Ex-1 is more geared towards projects using the larger xdcam hd cameras that need a smallish camera to fill the b cam, c cam role. To say that the sub-$10,000 camcorder market will have to move up to 1/2" chips doesn't make sense to me. You can see the size difference between the two cameras, the ex1 looks absolutely massive compared with the z7u. Sony is the currently the only manufacturer who is putting out 1/2" hd cameras. Sony is claiming this as gen 3 for hdv cameras. I can't wait to see some bench tests put out so we can actually see improvements to color fidelity and resolution over previous models and the cams from the competition.

February 12th, 2008, 12:26 PM	#70
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	When you replace the Z7 lens with a wide angle lens instead of adding one on to the front of the regular lens, the Z7 will definitely be the shortest and lightest option.

February 12th, 2008, 01:05 PM	#72
Jim Nogueira Major Player Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Milford, MA Posts: 487	You're right. I didn't check out the entire page. Light and small is good, as long as you can keep a steady handheld shot with it. I've been going back and forth between the two cameras also. I wish that it cost less, but right now, the Z7 looks like the best fit for me.

February 12th, 2008, 04:19 PM	#74
Greg Hartzell Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Columbia, CT Posts: 168	Tim, This is fairly off topic, but I don't think you'll get your wish, at least not in the near future. Sony may indeed release a future gen of the s270 shoulder mount camera with half inch chips for under ten grand (or xdcam disc or solid state for that matter). While you might see a price drop in cameras, and while you may be right that the electronics are not that different and that 1/2" chips don't take that much more space than 1/3" chips, the glass in front of the camera is going to be more expensive and keep the price prohibitive for people like me and yourself. Thats what's so ground breaking about the EX1. Keep in mind that ex1 only has a 14x zoom. If you look at broadcast glass in the 1/2" range, you're looking to spend at least $8k for the lens alone, not including camera, batteries, case, etc. In sd days, a cheap lens was fine to put in front of a 1/2" dv camera, but we're living in a hd world these days (I'm sure this is why Sony went with a 12x zoom instead of matching canon's 20x). I would be curious to put either camera (z7u or ex1) up next to your 1/2" dv camera and see the results. I'm sure either hd camera would blow the dv camera away. If you need an excuse to charge your clients more money, just claim that we're in a recession right now.