First impressions
 

I hope everyone will chime in with their impression

Well I took the vg10 out today and did a bit of filming my daughter taking a dressage lesson. Really the first time I have used it in an "event-like" scenario. I used the standard 18-200, and a monopod.

I'll just pass over the fact it does not have a strong tripod screw--it's fine on the monopod--you just wonder when it's going to break.

Bottom line: it was much nicer than I feared.

On a monopod the manual zoom is totally usable.
AF is generally very good, though once in awhile it gets lost. It is easy to switch to MF on the fly--well not as easy as it should be, two clicks instead of one, but it's fine.

DOF control is great in A mode while recording.

Exposure comp works fine.

Mic as you know is outstanding, I mean REALLY outstanding.

Fun to switch to photo mode where the motor drive is fast and continous.

It is very light which makes everything easier.

Stabilization: I had both systems on and it was also quite good.

I'm coming from years of event work with a PD 170 and VX2K, and I have to say I already like it WAY better, though battlefield conditions might change my mind, hehe.

I have a Nex-5 and my idea is to eventally use both at events, with various lenses: fast primes for low light.

Oh yeah the LCD is spectacular, I don't use EVFs ever, but that seems OK.

In fact as this point the only things I would really scream about to sony are the tripod mount (inexcusable) and the slightly loose emounting system for the 18200.

Watching the images afterwards: very crisp and gorgeous DOF. I never did try the DSLRs, so it's a real revelation to me.

I'm not sending it back, hehe

agreed on all points. Really enjoying myself with this cam.

Just to add, I've used this on a few jobs where it's been recording continuously for 90 minutes plus in warm conditions without overheating.

How well do you find it handles highlights?
I'm thinking about getting the camera tomorrow at B&H and have been pouring over online footage (YouTube-yuck) and there's a video called "Sony Handycam NEX-VG1 lens demo" and it shows the Sony 70-400 lens on some sort of crested bird (30 seconds into video) that shows some serious highlight blowouts and was wondering if this is typical of highlight handling?

Thanks~
Steve

Honestly, i have not noticed that, but you're prolly more picky than me. Exposure comp is easy, as is manual gain.

Today I shot some video with the nex-5 and a soligar 135mm f/2 on a 501 manfrutto head, totally watchable following dogs at play (as I struggled with the focus). I did not think I could use such a long unstabilised lens for video, but it's plenty steady for event work.

I hope to use that lens to film dancing in natural light.

Also a ND filter might help with highlight issues in the sun, I still need to get one.

It looks like a lot of the youtube videos are running on "aperture priority mode" because they want to maximise depth of field without having the hassle of using full manual settings - from having a quick tinker with the various auto modes that does seem to blow out the highlights a bit. But as long as you stick to full manual settings the camera is just fine. Agree that an ND filter might be a good idea to allow the iris to stay as open as possible in bright light, but at the same time I'm a bit reticent to put more glass between the camera and the image than absolutely necessary.

Thanks guys- I'm fairly certain I'll get one tomorrow........hopefully I can keep the highlights in check.....looks to be an interesting camera with fantastic imagery.

IMO, the big problem with the VG10, exposure wise, is that it works just like a consumer handicam:
It has no internal ND filters like the prosumer & pro cams, so it can only trade off shutter and aperture.
If you shoot wide aperture in bright daylight, your shutter can be running @ 1/1000- not a problem for stills, but certainly less than desireable for video.
My compromise solution is to use a variable ND filter for all daylight shooting. I set the shutter at the desired speed (typically 1/60 for me), and use the variable ND to dial in the desired aperture.
It's a work around, but it enables the camera to handle exposure more as the bigger pro cams do.
I haven't seen myself, or heard about any real downside re image quality. And why should there be- ND filters are constantly being slipped in and out of the optical path of all of the pro cams. It's rather SOP.

I purchased one at B&H but haven't had the chance to shoot with it yet.....but I'm excited by the possibilities.

I've ordered a Nikon (G) to NEX adapter to use a Sigma 50-500 lens I happen to have and would like to know how does one go about tripod mounting the setup......I assume as with a dslr- you hang the VG10 off the rear of the lens as this lens is huge?

I'm not too comfortable letting the camcorder body just hang in the air like this- any other methods for support of the long lens and cam body?

Thanks

You could use a rail setup, but I think the body is quite light, small, and very firmly attached to the lens.
I doubt there would be a problem with the lens/tripod mount- just like a DSLR.

My apologies, Robert. This is my first interchangeable lens camera. Out of interest what ND filter are you using?

The Singh Ray VariND.
There are less expensive variable NDs, I don't know how they compare quality wise, etc.

96USD 67mm so it goes right on.

Light Craft Workshop Fader ND filter

supposedly works well, have not tried it yet.

One caviet- if you get a 67mm variable ND, be certain that it will not vignette when the lens is at full wide angle.
I have the 77mm with a step up ring- definitely not a problem with vignetting.
It would be great if someone with the 67mm filter could report in on this potential issue.

Many thanks for the info. Very helpful and much appreciated. Hopefully the dismal beige British weather should save me from needing to choose an ND filter until I can find out whether there are any vignetting issues with the 67mm ;)

Sony has biased all the NEX series brighter than other cameras. WhY? Who knows?

When I use MY lightmeter -- an ISO of 150 matches the VG10 settings exactly.

Therefore, to prevent overexposure, I use an ISO of 200 (-1/3) to 300 (-1) relative to 150.

Remember that all meters AVERAGE -- so if there is only a small white face in front of a dark wall -- it will be overexposed. That's why I use a RANGE of 200 to 300.

Actually, I use two ranges: 200 to 250 (-1/3 to -2/3) for a video look and 250 to 300 (-2/3 to -1) for a film look. The latter crushes the blacks a bit.

If I don't want to hassle, I use ISO 250. Which on the camera is either -1/3 (video look) or -2/3 (film look).

Bottom-line, you MUST use EC and if you are trying to get a perfect exposure you have to think about what you see in the scene before you set it. It really is like shooting film!

PS: using the proper ISO increases the dynamic range.

A tendency to overexpose seems to be characteristic of all of the high end Sony Handicams.
It's been noted in the SR 12, XR 520, and the CX 550. Many shooters just leave the EC at -1/3 on all of these cams for ENG type shooting.

I will know for sure about the vignette with the cheaper 67 ND fader in not too long, as mine has shipped.

When i read up on it, the impression I got was that it already had a built in step to avoid the problem.

Note the stock hoods will not work with any of these NDs.

best, to all

Oh, my lens binge ended today with one last splurge: the sigma 8-16mm for alpha and the LAEA-1, which allows aperture control, though not AF on this lens.

Bought this primarily to use for stills on the nex-5, but should be interesting on the VG10 also.

the VG-10 is my first "serious" video camera. I've had it for about 5 weeks now, and almost immediately after taking delivery was asked to put it to commercial use filming a short tribute video for an award presentation.

So..........brand new videographer, brand new camera system, with an important project to shoot and no idea of what I'm doing ( I've been a stills photographer for 40 years, so I understand cameras, but still....)

So far, both I and my client have been astounded at the quality of images this camera shoots. I've done outdoor work handheld, tripod shooting, indoor interviews both with proper lighting and with only an LED camera mounted light; recorded audio direct from the onboard mics, with a zoom H1 as a remote mic, also as a hardwired mic to the camera, used a lavalier with it....everything I've asked the camera to do it's done...and done it much better than I would have hoped.

Not knowing any better, I'm sure a "pro" grade camera would capture this footage better...at least I would hope that it would for 5 or 6 times the price. That said, I suspect it will be a while before my skills exceed the cameras abilities.

I'm very pleased with the system overall. The weak tripod mount was frustrating, but a little work with a scredriver and some epoxy putty firmed that up nicely. It certainly has limitations compared to higher end cameras, but at the price point it occupies, I think it gives people a very nice intermediary start point.

Glad you mentioned it. I am thinking about buying this camera but I wanted to make sure that it could record non stop up to full capacity of the SD card. I know the video DSLR will usually shoot no more then 20 minutes, looks like VG10 does not have that issue. Just curious, How big was your SD card for the 90 min footage and were you running it off of an extended battery or was the camera plugged into the power outlet? Sorry this sounds like a newbe but I have been out of video biz for about five years.

I was using a generic version of the larger battery available for the cam. Think the brand version is called the NPV100 off the top of my head, and I used two 16gb class 10 sdhc cards.

If you're thinking of buying the VG10 it'd be remiss of me not to mention that it's also worth looking at the Panasonic GH2, which depending on what you're after might better fit your needs at a lower price point...

That Panasonic actually sounds pretty good, especially if I cought the video bug again. As for the length of clips, these are the specs on it:
AVCHD with picture quality set to [FSH]: Approx. 70 min with H-FS014042 / Approx. 65 min with H-VS014140
Motion JPEG with picture quality set to [HD]: Approx. 75 min with H-FS014042 / Approx. 70 min with H-VS014140

Not really sure what those H-**** are, do you by any chance?

Not sure either I'm afraid. Maybe one of the more tech headed forum members could help?

As far as the choice between the Panasonic GH2 and the Sony VG10 goes, I'm very happy with my VG10 but it wouldn't have been fair of me not to make you aware of your options. What's right for me might not be what's right for you. Most decent specialist retailers will have an area set aside at their store for you to get hands on time with potential purchases and I suggest you take advantage of that to test the cameras side by side.

At the risk of heading away from VG10 related matters, what were you wanting to use the camera for exactly, and what's your level of experience? there might be other more appropriate options than a hybrid/DSLR that you haven't considered yet...

Thanks for your response. At the present moment, my immediate need for a camera is to shoot these seminars that are about two hours long. I do currently have a little Sony handicam which would be fine, except that it's about as bad as cameras can get in low light situation. I contemplated a good old 3CCD cam but I am going off the assumption that the larger the sensor, the better it will be in low light, plus an added benefit of the shallow'er depth of focus.
I am also picking up few clients for whom I will be creating short weekly segments. These will be more of a scripted production. Eventually, I might start experimenting again with short films, etc.

What do you think?

What about a couple CX550V's? Not impressive, unless you're talking low light performance and long record times, then they are pretty slick...

I actually had a chance to try one out and it still ends with a slightly fuzzy image, hence the search :-(

Shallow depth of field for seminars isn't desirable, in fact it can be a pain when you have speakers who go walkabouts. I see too many people getting "clever" when shooting seminars when actually what is required is clarity of the content.

In addition you'll need a long lens that is fast (because lighting is never what it could be in those situations). By the time you've paid for that you will be spending the kind of money that will buy you a better camera.

Given the cameras I have at my disposal, my VG10 would be the last camera I would take to a seminar or any event that required an ENG style of shooting. It would be like using an axe to hammer in a nail. Wrong tool for the job.

Thanks Marcus. The seminars I shoot are very "generic" and the final output doesn't really need to be ENG quality BUT I do need it better then my current Handycam can deliver. Is it safe to assume that side by side, the from VG10 will be better then from the tiny sensor Handycam?

WAIT A MINUTE!

I just did a DOF TABLE for my book and the idea, promoted by Sony, that a big sensor provides a shallow DOF is just plain BS. You have to work hard to get a shallow DOF. In a typical seminar room, say at 12 feet from the speaker, there can be a 17 foot DOF.

The VG10 comes with a 400mm lens. That's long enough to shoot pimples on a speakers face.

You can easily use +24dB gain which is better than what the eye can see in a dark room.

There is only one issue and it applies to all cameras. The speaker is in dim light and a 500 watt projector with a white slide is on the screen next to her. You cannot include both in the same shot! You need an operator to pan. Or, you need to have the speaker run through the slides before or after while you video.

Of course, speakers love to walk up to the screen and point things out. One way to solve this is to : first set exposure comp to -2.0 when you expose for the speaker at the podium. Then when she walks to the screen and goes fully dark, just dial up to +2.0 to bring her into view. That's a 4 stop range.

Why not use aperture priority? Because you are already in shutter priority in order to lock the shutter speed. Why not use Manual? Because now you must constantly ride aperture with the tiny dial to cover minor lighting differences.

Bottom line, the vg10 is second best. The best is the NEX-5 with the 18200. Why? Because it has focus assist that will let confirm you have focus. You can use 7x or 14x magnify right on the background and on the closest point the speaker moves forward. That confirms you have got the DOF range placed correctly over the zone the speaker moves within. TIP, you can't use AF. All NEX use contrast focus and the moment anything of higher contrast enters the frame, your camera will focus on it like a moth to flame.

However, you will want the add-on mic and the PA system must be used for all speakers which means you want the speaker to repeat questions from the audience! And, try to place a speaker near your camera position.

But dosen't the NEX5 have rather rather limited record times? Surely that's less than desirable for one time events work of this nature...

I've used my VG10 for this kind of work with perfectly acceptable results, the 18-200 lens works just fine, but like one of the other posters said a talk or speech isn't something I'd film with one camera. I normally use a little handicam to get a wide shot, my VG10 to get a close shot of the speaker, my XH-A1 to get a correctly exposed shot of the whiteboard and don't even bother trying to capture anything that's being projected at the correct exposure, adding the slides into my timeline in post instead.

as far as I can see, if he wants a good short film camera that can also do events work the logical choices are the GH2 or VG10. If he just wanted to be doing events work he might be better of with a couple of reasonably specced consumer camcorders with good low light and fixed lenses.

I just finished a short project shot with both VG 10 and CX550.
Viewed as BR on HDTV, it is difficult for me to discern any significant differences in image quality, color, dynamic range, etc. The footage intercuts seamlessly and the quality is quite good.
I have also intercut CX550 footage with the EX1 with good results.
The CX550 is easy to dismiss because it's a small, inexpensive consumer cam, but I have used it a lot and never fail to be surprised at the performance it delivers- particularly in low light.
If you move away from simple point and shoot, learn the various adjustments and clever features available, you can produce some excellent video imagery.
The audio section is strictly consumer grade- the VG10 will excel in this department- but you can use wireless mic/lavalier into the CX, or record audio seperately.
IMO, the CX550 is a highly evolved product as far as image quality is concerned, and is competitive in that regard with any of the cameras in the lower price range, including the VG10.
I'm enjoying my VG10, but I think its target niche is for "cinematic" type application. I've seen no particular advantage in using it for ENG/doco projects.
The VG10 is all about DOF- that's the main feature.

I don't think you would get a better image than the CX550 until you spend quite a lot more $$ - too many people here using them side by side with FX/AX/NX/EX cameras with good results. I've yet to find a truly compelling reason to spend 2-3X+ as much on a camera, although I keep looking. Once you learn the capabilities of some of these smaller cameras, you'd be surprised how effective they can be when properly used. Panasonic's 700 series and the GH1/2 would also probably be quite effective.

I'm wondering if the camera you "tried out" was improperly set up. I have a pair of these for a simple event type setup (one wide + one tight/tracking) - no problems with image quality or "fuzzy image"... there are lots of ways to get a degraded image, and I'm suspicious that it's something other than the camera?

A few db when you are struggling is fine, but 24db? Really?

If you are having to use 24db you've made some seriously bad calls in terms of your lens choice and camera position.

While you guys gave me a lot to think and contemplate about as far as possibilities go, a time comes when one must make a decision, especially in this field where things change so fast.
I was really intrigued by the original post's suggestion of the GH2 and after researching it, it seems that this might be a better way to spend my money, especially consider future potential work which will be more of scripted stage productions. As far as the seminar issue, I spoke with the client regarding the dimly lit conference room interior and they seem to finally be ok with me throwing some light in there. This has not been an option before so I'm glad they agreed.
Thanks again for all your suggestions.

You don't own the VG10 do you.

Zoomed, all zoom lenses are f/5.6 because that the NORM for Super 35 sized sensors. Clearly you must be shooting with last gen tiny sensors.

24 is simply a number. It means nothing. You can go to 27dB if you want. What you don't understand is that big sensors are noiseless up to 21dB gain. Your tiny chip cameras go to crud at 12dB.

And camera position has nothing to do with anything.

Best you do a bit of learning about HDSLRs before posting on what works and doesn't work.

Incorrect. Unlike many of the posters on here who spend their days expressing opinions on something they have never used or even seen, I do own a VG10.

You've made an assumption that you are going to be shooting on a zoom lens rather than a prime that will be far better equipped for a low light situation. Like a professional photographer, you should be buying lenses for the situations you are planning on shooting, not trying to uses lenses unsuited to the job in hand and then hoping the electronics can bail you out.

I'll state again, 24db is not acceptable. You'll be pulling up picture information that simply isn't there, grain or no grain. You may find the results acceptable, however as someone who winces when I apply 3db of gain to my EX1, I do not. It's the lazy way out and has consequences.

You simply don't need that amount of gain if you are doing things right. On a camera where you can actually change lenses, it's just rank lazyness.

Your advice was completely off target for the question asked. Shooting a conference is not exactly filmmaking. No need to worry about a tiny bit of noise. And, he told he can add light!

You can see NO noise on the VG10 until 18dB. And, only a tiny bit at +21dB.

Of course one is going to use a zoom. It would be just plain stupid to show up at an unknown conference room and use anything but a zoom. Moreover a zoom is bundled with the VG10. Why should he buy another when there's no need to.

PS: if you think you see noise on an EX1 at 3dB you are seeing things.

Some nice side by side low light comparsion shots between a VG10 and a 5d mark II using the same 50mm 1.4 lens at various different gain/ISO settings...

Sony NEX-VG10 compared to dslr, defective or broke nex-vg10.