NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

I want to make a little documentary about people who like to take their sports cars to race tracks.

The story I'm trying to tell is that these cars aren't just for taking to Cars & Coffee, and cruising PCH, instead there are some people who push them to their limits at local tracks several times a year.

I plan to cut in lots of track footage from GoPro cams inside and attached to cars, as well as footage I shoot from around the the track.

I also plan to have interviews with the drivers.

There are a number of 1/3" semi-pro cameras for $2000-3000 that are very ergonomic, and even have XLR inputs and PCM recording. But, most of the footage I see from them looks like it was from a cheap camera.

DSLR footage always looks great for interviews, but in any other situation the subject is out of focus most of the time. That's great for an art film, but I'm going for a more mainstream look.

Ergonomics on a DSLR suck at a race track where you are in a hot, sunny, dusty, and otherwise miserable environment. A camcorder which has a good viewfinder, and one that can stand the heat would be nice.

A $20,000 2/3" CCD ENG camera would be ideal, but I can't even afford the rental.

I think the VG30 (assuming it's similar, or better than the VG20) is the ideal compromise.

My question, is, can I keep the subject, a speeding car, in focus easily? Can the depth of field be deep enough to show context such as the other cars around it?

My goal, though lofty, is to hopfully get Top Gear quality racing footage along with some beautiful interviews.

For audio I have a DR40 and access to some good lav and shotgun mics.

I have a really long time to complete this project, so I plan take my time learning shooting skills, and story telling skills.

thanks,
~Jay

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

** Note: just noticed you're the same chap from my BRZ thread.... still, I'll leave this here since I already typed it.

What you describe is exactly what I shoot professionally. For years I used a Sony NX5U (shooting for Ford Racing, Mazda, etc.), and I recently sold it and moved to an Alpha A77. Both types of cameras will work. My friend that does the Subaru Rally Team USA videos also made the switch, in his case to a 5D mk2, last year. Both of us did it because of the creative possibilities large sensors allow. Shooting Lucas Trucks, Rally America, Formula D and Global Rallycross is about as rough as it gets for cameras.

Now, in terms of the VG30 you'll be missing a couple major benefits of a traditional video camera and that's a steadycam function and a fast auto focus. In fact, having a steadycam feature was one reason I picked the A77 over the VG series myself. If the camera doesn't have steadycam you will need a rig - a good one, like a redrock, if you want to go handheld. I like to go incognito with the A77 when i can, people can be intimidated by a big rig (I also have a rig, fwiw). Regarding autofocus, personally I don't use it much anymore, so its not a big deal, but I did when I first started years ago - nothing wrong with it. Over time, I found I was faster and more accurate, but I didn't get there overnight.

No matter which camera you get, if you're shooting trackside you'll need to budget for both a wide (24mm equiv) and tele (200mm) zooms to get full coverage. And given how often events go into the night, you'll kick yourself if they're not f2.8s. That means adapters on the VG. Primes are a pain to shoot with in a fast-paced track environment, though I know lots of guys that use them (they also shoot 24p for some insane and misguided reason.)

In the end, it all comes down to your own skillset and your goals to determine exactly which is right for you. If you have specific questions, I'm happy to answer best I can. If you're really undecided, rent a VG camera from someone like borrow lenses and see if you're comfortable with it before committing.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Canon XF100 isnt a cheap camera and has a great image and all you require.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

You say you want to keep speeding cars in focus. The large sensor cameras will make this job even tougher. The smaller 1/3" chip sensor cameras will have a wide depth of field, keeping more of the scene in focus.

And if you get the VG30, a variable ND filter is a must. The sensor will suck in daylight to the point where you'll have to close down the iris to around f22, making for very poor images.

That said, I've owned the VG10 and now own an FS100. You can certainly use these cameras in the manner in which you require. The 18-200 kit lens is a very usable lens and in bright daylight the auto focus is pretty good. I've shot lacrosse games with it on auto focus and it looks great. For panning fast cars on a track, it might save your shot. The VG30 also has the power zoom, which will come in handy.

Sony will have an XLR attachment that will give you better audio on a VG30, for about $800.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Note that the VG30 teamed with the 18-200 SEL lens does have a 'steadycam' function -- the Sony OSS is built into the lens, and is very good. As for speed of focus, I've never noticed an issue when shooting with that combo, but then again I've been shooting with various rigs and formats for thirty years and haven't got around to using autofocus so my opinion is that autofocus is unnecessary -- it may well be true that the autofocus on some devices is not 'fast'. But as recommended, rent and try -- I've used the VG20 a couple of times, and the FS100 more frequently. Both suit me fine, though the FS100 is a more convenient tool in terms of features built-in.

Cheers,
GB

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

The main trouble you will run into is that 200mm is too short for a racing circuit. You could get a 70-400 for the VG30 but that leaves you stranded when the cars come close.

The best 1080P60 option in my opinion is a Panasonic AG-AC160A which has a 28mm-616mm zoom range. It will be much easier to focus, it has proper audio and a proper form factor... but it costs more

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Thanks for the replies, that is all very helpful.

In two weeks there will be an auto-x that I can experiment with. I think I'll rent a VG-20 for that. That same weekend I am doing sound for another project, maybe we can try the VG-20 on that as well since it's a 3 day rental. They used a T2i, and they had problems with it overheating.

For the race track I'll need a circular polarizer, will that reduce enough light, or will I still need a ND filter?

When you say f22 harms the image quality, what does that mean? In film, doesn't it just make the image sharper?

I don't know why Sony charges $800 for their XLR adapter, that's nearly Rupert Neve, or API price range! And yet it still records to a lossey codec.

Would any of you recommend a used 2 year old camera? Is it possible that I can get something more pro, for a lot less money?

Ryan, will you be in Southern California any time soon? I'd love to shadow you and see you work.

thanks,
~Jay

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Since a 200mm lens (70-200) is a 370mm on an A77 or about a 320mm on a VG30, I don't think you need anything longer. Having the flexibility of a f2.8 is more useful for 99% of the shots you'll be doing than going with a slower 400mm.

I don't use ND filters on the track. Just a polarizer (always tons of glare on the track). If it's too bright at your preferential f-stop just increase your framerate (unless you HAVE to shoot in full sunlight at 2.8.) I usually shoot races between ~1/180 and ~1/500. The "180 rule" doesn't really apply to action sports and 24fps is... well, I have very strong opinions against 24fps in action sports. As for f22 that just brings everything in focus, though, I can't recall ever having enough light to shoot cars at f22, but it won't "harm" your image quality if you choose to do so, it will just (arguably) harm your composition.

You won't need the XLR adaptor. The sennheiser lavs I use have an option for 1/4-inch output, and you can get several quality shotguns with 1/4-inch (that said, I personally use XLR, but I don't think it's in any may mandatory.) Check the gear you have access to, and then make the call.

If I was just getting started I would seriously look at the Canon XF100 (not having used it, mind you, just recommending on specs alone and my experience with the XF300.) If you can start with a camera that does everything well, you can focus on story telling and composition and not the fiddly bits of getting a DSLR to do what you want. (Though, I know many seem to like that part.) The only major issue I see with the Canon XF100 is that the zoom is pretty short at 10x.

I don't have any plans to shoot in SoCal right now - the season is winding down. But things pop up all the time.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Check the JVC GY-HM600 f12 @ 2000 LUX much better (& cheaper ?) then the Canon XF 300/5

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

That JVC 600 looks like a great camera, i'd swap my Panny 160a for it but it's missing 1080p60.
Very disappointing, especially when cameras are going north of 60p now.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

OMG
It is a great Camcorder for 5k

I dont know what else can do 50p - with this price? Canon C100 Canon XF 300 PMW1/3/200 nope

Go for SONY F3 CANON C500 SONY PMW 350 SONY FS 100/700 and burn a lot of lolly's $
hold the heavy gear and/or Rig it up for XXXX extras $

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Panasonic
-700/900 line have had 60p for 2+ years.
- under $1000 (Last Xmas it was the TM900 was going for $600 - 3MOS- focus ring - granted it's a handycam, but c'mon)
-AC90 - $2K
(all smaller chip cameras)
Now, i'm no Panasonic fan boy . . . i recently replaced my Canon XHA1s with the AC160a and i'm totally turned off by the build quality and there's quite a lot that i'm not thrilled about. But it's a very capable camera and fit the bill for me.
Now, one may say 720p60 is fine, but 1080 allows for reframing in post which is indispensable for some sports applications.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

1080i vs. 1080p

1080i vs. 1080p | Home Theater

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

First of all, that article is over 6 years old.
Second, it has no bearing on my application; sports highlights for college recruiting.
For me, the advantage of shooting 60p is the ability to slow down footage without sacrificing resolution.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Sorry for my post. but no need to by a little grumpy...
But it depends on the hardware where you present your material and this was clear from the article...

For Slowmo: Don't pan during shooting, use High Shutter speeds and good contrast plus dedicated software for slow-motion:
Timewarp Fluid Motion, Twixtor with 1080 25p can slowdown till 10%

AND 50p does not bring automatic doubled Datarate, because the followed pictureframes are not so different from each other.

One more thing:
Why Are We So Obsessed with Camera Specs? | The Black and Blue

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Many sub 1000 dollar camera can do 50p these days, even my cx730 has that option. It is a fact that 50p slows down much better then 25p without any twixtor tricks. Slowing down 25p 50% looks like crap, 50p otoh still gives you a smooth motion.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

I"m not a "specs" technical kind of guy, I only look at the result without sticking my face against a lcd screen, I have been working with 50p for a few months now and it took me a while to find the best workflow and now I"m very happy with it. Many might complain about the fact that it looks like video instead of film but when I film in 25p or 50p with the same camera it all looks the same for me, only that with 25p I need to take care of my camera movements (like slow panning) while with 50p I don't. My impression with 25p is also that the camera has more focusing issues if you shoot in auto mode while in 50i or 50p that's not the case.
I now get very sharp dvd output without any judder issues while panning, all looks smooth in motion. Also blu-ray output or when I output for web use it all looks good.
When shooting fast action 50p is certainly an advantage, especially compared to 25p since you get smoother motion, better results when slowing footage down and possible better autofocus capabilities if you don't or can't focus manually. The bitrate is also higher when the camera shoots at 1080p 50p in the avchd codec, whether that's delivers an advantage in image quality I don't know but I bet anyone obsessed with cameraspecs does know an answer to that :)

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

[QUOTE=Jay Morrissette;1760256]I want to make a little documentary about people who like to take their sports cars to race tracks.

My tip is Sony PMW-200

Sony PMW-200

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2012/07/50...-sony-pmw-200/

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

[quote=Werner Graf;1761105]It would help to know the OP's camera budget, but I'm guessing it's around the $2-3,000 mark. That may be why the VG30 is under consideration.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

That does look like a great camera, but it is about twice what I want to spend. I would like to stay under $3000.

I would prefer to own the camera with a good multi-purpose lens, and then rent special lenses if I need to.

Speaking of bit rates and codecs, how do you think a vg-20 with an Atomos Ninga would compare to the PMW-200?

~Jay

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

I have a VG 20 too but the AF is far from very good is is Contrast mode only. I think Atomos is just waisted money for the VG 20 no real better quality possible.
Dont know if you want do slowmo then PWM 200 is good - otherwise you can go for a PMW1 used about 3.5k$, wich is real Camcorder.
Google or Ebay for used PMW and in this forum infos about PMW1 series
Sony XDCAM EX CineAlta Forum at DVinfo.net

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

FCP X is so cheap & good for Slowmo has Optical flow down to 1% built in


Many sub 1000 dollar camera are 1 Chip cams and are Handycams = Socker Moms things

Here something mo better than a 1 Chip Handycam
http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/15/p...nal-camcorder/

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

This only works well if you have a sky background like in the youtube example but is useless if you have a lot of small detail going on in the background. 50p you can slow down 50% without having to take anything into consideration and without any side effect.
Also a camera having just one chip doesn't mean it's worse then a 3 chipper, there are enough (semi) professional one chip camera's around that prove otherwise. That a handycam is by definition a "Socker Mom thing" is right but the quality these high end handicams output is more then sufficient to even produce professional results, only not in the hands of a "socker mam". :)

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

There is quite a difference by adding 60p - while the data rate isn't doubled, it is increased (28 vs. 24 Mbps). The added data stream and the complete frames definitely make for a better source file to work with, and better results overall. Slo-mo and pulled stills both benefit.

Even some of the Sony P&S cams have 60p and will give good results if used in the right situations. The Alpha SLT's also added 60p this model year... I look for it as a "standard" feature, as the results look better, although some programs struggle with handling it (oddly including Sony's own "consumer" file management/viewer PMB/PMH programs...).

As for "soccer mom cams" - those are now more likely CELL PHONE CAMS (whole FLOCKS of them!), and they may well have pretty good HD quality video too, if properly handled.

It is as it has always been - it is not the aquisition device, it is the operator... and there are so many "good enough" to excellent "aquisition devices" at crazy cheap price points, it's all about the shooter and the grip gear, and lighting and sound, and talent... oh yeah, and CONTENT.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

And then again, a 1 chip xf100 might output a better image then the 3 chip ag ac90, I have seen some pre- production footage from the panasonic and while it certainly is a good featured camera at a very aggressive pricepoint, I saw it didn't handle highlights very well which looked like something more panasonic camera's suffer from. Having a 3 cmos sensor is no guarantee anymore these day for good image quality, there is much more involved like the technology behind it, the codec and certainly, like Dave pointed out, the operator.

I had been looking at a lot of vg20 footage on Vimeo in the past and many looked like crap, some just ok and just a few very good, it's the same camera so it has to be the operator that makes the difference.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

Focus is a real problem, especially with the cheap lens I was using in the very soft video below. My SSM lenses are much better and I wish I had time to get my tripod setup!


I have a DR40 too... the dual recording function is great as cars are really loud. But I need to buy some kind of dead cat for it as I got a lot of wind noise.

We will just have to agree to disagree about this point. I went to a small circuit called Bihoku Highlands and borrowed a friend's Tamron 18-270 and it was probably just enough. If I went to a proper racing circuit I would definitely want the 400mm for my A77.

Re: NEX-VG30 or traditional camcorder?
 

I guess I should have qualified my opinion, it depends strictly on both the course layout and access to the course when its hot. I usually shoot pretty close to the track.