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-   -   NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-nxcam-avchd-camcorders/499394-nx5u-grainy-picture-possibly-resolved-plugin.html)

Mike Butir August 9th, 2011 03:29 PM

NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Hey everyone!

I have been reading up a lot lately on the issue with a lot of noise from my NX5. not only is it caused from this camera but i have also read this is just an issue in most 1/3 inch cameras. i have came across this plugin called "Neat Video" here is the link to the website: Neat Video - best noise reduction for digital video

If anyone has ever used this i would love to hear what you have to say about it! i am going to give the demo a try when i can find some time and see what i think with the ending result. i will gladly inform you guys on my thoughts.

Michael Bray August 9th, 2011 05:20 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
I have read other posts here on Dvinfo that Neat video works very well though I have never used it so I cant vouch for it personally.

I have found that if you want a noise free image straight out of the camera, you need to keep the gain at minus 6 or minus 3...anything above that will typically produce grain. I personally find anything over plus 6 to be unacceptable and perhaps that's when Neat video may become a valuable tool.

Alec Moreno August 10th, 2011 12:32 AM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Neat Video is one of the most popular plug-ins around for noise reduction. One good trick that I like is to add some noise to the image after exposure/color correction, but before applying Neat Video. This works to maintain the edges of objects/subjects while removing the grain from their surfaces. Just don't overdo it on either the noise addition or reduction.

Alec Moreno
Wedding Art Films - Southern California - Los Angeles - Orange County - Video

Mike Butir August 11th, 2011 12:47 AM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
i just installed the demo version.. and let me say it is quite a dramatic difference in picture quality! i was absolutely blown away by how much grain it took away in the shot! im still very confused to why i had grain in my shot in the first place when i was shooting with -6db of gain...? and suggestions to why this would be? All this time i thought that it was the way i was exporting my footage from final cut.. but sure enough it is the 4,000 camera doing it.. i am speechless and kinda feel let down by my camera that this is occurring.

Ben Moore August 11th, 2011 02:34 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
I use the neat video plugin, it does work really well, Only down side is the huge render times for me in Premiere.


Ben

Mike Butir August 12th, 2011 03:51 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
yeah that is one thing that i have noticed with using the demo in final cut. but IMO the wait was well worth it. i am just curious to if the graininess is caused by the compression of the AVCHD codec? you guys think that if i was recording uncompressed out of the HDMI or SDI port, you think that since it would be recording at higher quality that it might reduce the grain?

Michael Bray August 12th, 2011 05:37 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Butir (Post 1674590)
i am just curious to if the graininess is caused by the compression of the AVCHD codec? you guys think that if i was recording uncompressed out of the HDMI or SDI port, you think that since it would be recording at higher quality that it might reduce the grain?

Are you using manual settings or auto? I only ask because I have two NX5s and shoot in full manual and as long as both cameras are set at -6db or -3db I don't have any problems with grain...so I don't think your problem is necessarily that of compression issues from the AVCHD codec. Both of my cameras give a very clean image. Just shooting in the dark but it's possible that it may be related to a combination of settings your using.

Mike Butir August 13th, 2011 01:38 AM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Hey Michael,

When i am shooting with the NX5 i always keep it on manual at all times. i also always do keep it at -3 to -6db on most cases when i can get away with it. i really cant seem to figure out what would be causing this grain to just show up.. i dont know if it is the screen that i am viewing it on or what? ( i use an 24inch iMac with the resolution of 1920x1200) so i dont know if that is playing a factor in this.. although i am kind of picky it seems that i only notice this when i am right on top of the monitor but if i happen to sit back further i dont notice it at all. it may just be the way that the monitor displays it.

I thought i should ask, what software do you use? if fcp what are your export settings? i would be curious to be able to compare them to my settings. I also have premiere Pro handy on a different computer if u happen to use that.

Thanks,
Mike

Michael Bray August 13th, 2011 06:21 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Have you tried connecting your camera to an HDTV via HDMI? This will at least let you see the image as you tweak your settings and determine if the grain is present before importing into your NLE, or if it shows up after export. I'm using premiere CS5 and usually export using the h.264 Blu-ray or MPEG Blu-ray presets. I typically shoot at 1920x1080 30p FX mode, manual everything, shutter speed of 1/30, and use PP1 with gamma set to x.v. and detail set to +2. When I first purchased the cameras I was pissed at the results of the video quality. I had heard many people say what a great camera this was and that it was great in low light...needless to say, I was disappointed with my initial results. After weeks of drilling down the menus and settings I have found this to be a very capable camera that produces a great image. I know this is probably a dumb question, as I'm certain your're in manual mode but have you checked to make sure the AGC isn't kicking up and causing your grain. Short of that, I'm running out of ideas for you. Rest assured however, that the NX5 does indeed shoot very clean grain free images.

Mike Butir August 13th, 2011 09:02 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Okay so i just did another test while shooting at -6db of gain and used your picture profile settings you suggested and i exported it in premiere pro with the "mpeg blue ray" preset and it seemed to be the same picture that i was getting while exporting from FCP. i seem to only notice the graininess when i am up close to my iMac and up close to my HDTV via HDMI. But the further i back i go it is gone. although i have a older sony bravia LCD HDTV so its not the best display to view stuff like this on.

another question i have is why does the gain info not show up in play back when i have a picture profile on? but when i record something with picture profile off the gain is displayed? any thoughts? i also have AGC set to off

Ron Evans August 14th, 2011 07:33 AM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Data code shows everything in playback on my NX5U and I use several profiles for different things.

Ron Evans

Mike Butir August 14th, 2011 01:43 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
well data code shows up but just the gain doesnt show up.. what would cause that?

Ron Evans August 14th, 2011 02:03 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Is it just the gain missing? There are 3 pages of data code. Date and time, camera information and GPS info. Do you see all these?

Ron Evans

John McManimie August 14th, 2011 02:03 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
I do not notice noisy images but I have detail set low, crispening set and other detail features set and keep gain negative if possible.

Do you have detail set high? Are you boosting gain in FCP?

Avoid gain in FCP - Adam Wilt said in a review of this camcorder that "boosting gain after the fact in Final Cut Pro gave me comparable noise".

Noise (grain) is often increased in dark areas with increases in detail. It seems that many people want to shoot with greater detail --- I like the look of lower detail settings (as do females that I film)... :-) but then I like the look of old movies from 1920s and 30s (and Black and White). I actually set detail to -7 most of the time.

Greater detail should not always be used for low luminance signals.

You should test all adjustments by using a video monitor --- you may find that increased detail can show too much on large screens.

You can set detail manually on the NX5U to set additonal features:

--- V/H Balance - Selects the balance of the lower DETAIL (B) and the upper DETAIL (W). TYPE 1 (off to the lower DETAIL (B) side) to TYPE 5 (off to the upper DETAIL (W) side)

--- B/W Balance

--- Black Limit - ***set upper limit for detail in dark areas

--- White Limit - ***set upper limit for detail in bright areas

--- Crispening - Crispening can help coarsening of overall image. When you set it to a higher level, less noise may be seen, as fine elements of details are deleted leaving only high-level elements.

--- Hi-light Detail

Mike Butir August 14th, 2011 07:47 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Ron,

Yes just the gain seems to be the only one missing. everything else shows my iris ect. i dont know what is causing this.. and yes i see all three menus on there as well.

Mike Butir August 14th, 2011 11:15 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
UPDATE:

Sorry for the noob question here.. but i am currently messing around with the features on my camera and i noticed that i had "minus AGC" set to on.. would that be the cause for the noisy image?

Michael Bray August 15th, 2011 09:27 AM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Butir (Post 1674834)
another question i have is why does the gain info not show up in play back when i have a picture profile on? but when i record something with picture profile off the gain is displayed? any thoughts? i also have AGC set to off

Per the NX5 Operating Guide, page 30..."When you record high definition image quality (HD) movies with the gain set to [-6db] and play them back with the data code, the gain value is displayed as [---]".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Butir (Post 1675057)
UPDATE:

Sorry for the noob question here.. but i am currently messing around with the features on my camera and i noticed that i had "minus AGC" set to on.. would that be the cause for the noisy image?

No, the "minus AGC" set to on will not cause your noisy image. I still believe that your noisy image stems from some combination of in-camera settings IMHO.

Mike Butir August 15th, 2011 11:35 AM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
when you mean in camera settings do you mean by my picture profiles? or main menu?

Michael Bray August 15th, 2011 08:28 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Possibly a combination of both. I'm only speculating though as I can't physically see your camera or it's settings.

Are you seeing the grain or noise in the entire image or just the dark or black scenes?

Mike Butir August 16th, 2011 07:02 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
what i will do later this evening is post all off the settings that i have on so that you have a better feel on how my camera is operating. but in the mean time, yes i am seeing the noise in the entire shot not just certain areas. even on a perfectly lit scene outside with -6db i am still looking at a noisy image. a question i should ask, when you play it back on full screen on your computer do u see a noisy image? but yet again when i plug it into my HDTV via HDMI a can still see some noise with even 0db of gain (that i can understand will show a little though)

Michael Bray August 16th, 2011 11:11 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
When I play the raw files from the camera on a PC or HDTV from a properly lit scene with -6db or -3db I have absolutely no noise or grain...same goes for live preview when connected via HDMI. You are correct however, that 0db will show a very slight amount of noise...so slight that most, if not all of your clients will probably never notice.

I would definitely be interested in taking a peek into your camera settings to see if we can get this grain thing figured out.

Mike Butir August 17th, 2011 12:17 AM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
6 Attachment(s)
this is what i was able to come up with, i hope its enough info. i didnt include an PP because i get this problem without pp too.

Michael Bray August 17th, 2011 09:55 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Hey Mike,

Thanks for posting the screen shots. Honestly, I'm at a loss for your noise issue. Perhaps someone with more knowledge might chime in. Your camera is setup very similar to mine and the slight differences between our setups aren't going to cause the grain you're seeing. I'm really scratching my head right now for ideas. As mentioned in my previous post, both of my NX5's (with virtually identical settings to yours) do indeed record a grain or noise free image with or without picture profiles and thats even before it's imported into an NLE. I wish I could provide more help but I am truely out of ideas. Keep us posted if you find a fix. Perhaps Sony might have something to say about it.

Mike Butir August 17th, 2011 10:01 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
I went to sony this evening with my camera and compared it side by side with the ax2000 (basically same camera). and also played back the footage on there best tv in the store. both of te cameras footage looked identical! i came to the conclusion along with the store manager that i am viewing my footage to closely and the further back o go from my monitor is the proper way to view my footage. basically what i see is the pixels that are making up the image that i see. when standing at the proper distance away from the tv you will get a very nice image like i did. for some reason i thought that the noise i see was coming from the camera which was not the case at all! coming to this realization is a huge relief for me! Thanks for your help throughout this whole process!

Michael Bray August 17th, 2011 10:16 PM

Re: NX5U grainy picture possibly resolved with Plugin
 
Glad to hear you got it sorted out. I'm sure you will sleep better knowing that your beloved NX5 is working as it should.


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