Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Hi Alister,

Are you able to provide any more hints/details on when and where these Nikon adapters with built in NDs might become available? Are there any confirmed ETAs or have you only heard rumours that they are in development.
I hunted around the MTF site but couldn't find any upcoming adapter details or announcements.

Lack of built-in NDs is the biggest drawback of the FS100 IMHO, so a 3 or 4 step ND e-mount adapter would seem to be the must-have accessory for anyone serious about controlling exposure without compromising on either DOF or shutter speed.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

This is a resolution test for my EX1 with the Letus adapter and without. Specifically for Alister and Piotr The chart was downloaded so this is unscientific but at least you can compare the two and get an idea how much resolution is lost by using the letus. Both pics are as they came off the camera with sharpness turned off. Sorry forgot to white balance the EX1 pic

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

There seems to be a drop off in sharpness towards the edge with the Letus, plus a reduction in contrast.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Brian

You mean the left top corner? Could be a slight misalignment in how I tightened the letus on. The contrast could be down to the letus image being overexposed.

Anyway the loss of resolution is neglible.

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

It doesn't look over exposed, although the clean EX is darker exposure wide. I'd expect the contrast to be lower, it's part of what gives the adapters a more film look.

The resolution does looks pretty good in the centre, however, compared to the clean shot on the EX1 the edges do look softer.

Needing a critical alignment is a potential issue when shooting on a tight schedule.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Sorry should have said the EX1 was less exposed Not over exposed a slip of the tongue. Re the contrast I think I may have used a different gamma curve accidently.

Alister- You said
The best I've ever seen from a Letus type device was approx 600 LW/PH. The problem is that a GG will reduce the contrast and contrast, resolution, perceived and actual sharpness go hand in hand.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Needing a critical alignment is a potential issue when shooting on a tight schedule.

Once the letus is set up there is no need to take it off all you do is change lenses.

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

The other issue with the Letus is pure reliability. In vibrating models I've used, I've had the motors suddenly stop as connnections to the vibrating motor just gives out due to connection from wire. Also in hot situations, the vibrating motor would just stop. I haven't heard much mention of these issues from other users, which makes me wonder if out of all the adapters that were sold, that any of them were ever used for extended periods.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Hi Chris

I've not had an issue with my adapter yet. My last film was shot over 4 consecutive FULL days and two half days. I've used the adapter for extensive testing of lenses but that's about it. Do you think all letus adapters are prone to breakdown?

The EX1 offers a thousand lines of resolution 10 bit HDSDI out ND filters 2 card slots. Using a letus you will undoubtably get more resolution than the FS100 and the AF100

The FS100 offers 780 lines of resolution 8bit signal processing.8 bit out. No ND filters. The FS100 is touted as the F3's smaller brother because it shares the same sensor but are the manufacturers really just crippling the cameras to dilineate the markets into consumer and pro? Even the F3 has 35mbs rather than 50 mbs keeping it separate from more expensive cameras.

The AF100 offers 680 lines of resolution which is closer to 720p than 1080 with 8bit HDSDI out with ND filters but it's a smaller sensor.

I'm concerned the marketing implies one thing but is really another. I don't think there is anyway you could call the FS100 the baby brother to the F3. Maybe really it should be the replacement for the VG10?

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

QUOTE: "I don't think there is anyway you could call the FS100 the baby brother to the F3."

Exactly!!!
This is what I have been trying to tell people since I had the opportunity to shoot with an FS100 before NAB. The cameras are totally different. They share the same image sensor, and that is just about all they have in common. I don't know why Sony and everyone else lumps them together, because they have nothing in common at all.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Another opinion: I think Juan said at NAB that the F3 and the FS-100 were assigned to two different project groups. They each had their own budget, and they probably never talked to one another, and what the FS-100 group came up with was what they would have come up with if the F3 didn't even exist.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

I came across a review of the Letus on In Review: Letus Extreme 35mm Lens AdapterMatthew Jeppsen, Matthew Jeppsen, Matthew Jeppsen which quotes "50mm lens at f/4 I noted about 700x650 lines of resolution^.

I think in the end it comes down to if you like the look of a clean FS100 or F3 against the adapter look, which tends towards a slight promist feel. There are other aspects like sensitivity which will influence selecting a camera for a production. These decisions are personal, unless you're meeting HD broadcast specifications. The FS100 & F3 cameras have different markets

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Dear Mark, you're defending a lost case here. Been there, seen that. Have had enough.

Optimally, I'd like to sell my Letus - but should it prove to be impossible, well... See the link in my sig.

It'd be a pity, cause I love my EX1 - but not the Letus. The FS100 would make such a nice B-cam for the EX1...

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

The FS100 was designed by and is built by the Sony Shinegawa factory which is responsible for Sony's PV products (pro video) and consumer products. The F3 was designed and is built at the Atsugi factory which is where all the broadcast gear is produced. The two teams are completely separate.

I'll run the charts through Imatest in the morning and see what we get.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Piotr
I'm not crazy about the Letus/EX1 combo.. I SHOULD only care about pic quality and usability But I don't I want in on the big chip show. But in the end my down to earth practical side errs on comon sense and what ACTUALLY gives the best picture and most usability is an add on and not the one stop solution that takes one step forward and three back.

I'm seduced by the new big chip cameras that offer the lenseless holy grail we've been waiting for for years. Unfortuneatly this isn't the pivotal moment it promised to be. Only the F3 offers the real deal the other two seem to be crippled to the point of non starters for my position,

I'm definatly going to look in on your posts when you get your FS100 and sell your EX1!

What grates with me is I have four Zeiss mark one primes 16mm film lenses that I'm sure would work well with the AF101 and all four at T1.4 Would make the AF101 a GREAT choice. But the reality is 680 lines 8 bit and many are seemingly reporting problems with highlights. Doh..

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Sorry Alister - I'd missed this post of yours.

But can I remind you of a point I think you have referred to yourself? That Imatest is only effective if the MTF50 point is below the Nyquist limit? From the Imatest site ( Imatest - Sharpness ) , near the bottom:
In other words, the Imatest software can't distinguish between real resolution and "sensor response above the Nyquist frequency" (aliases). It relies on a user separately knowing what the Nyquist frequency is, and if Imatest gives a figure for MTF50 of greater than that, the implication is that there are aliases present of greater than 50% mtf. The software is intended for systems where MTF50 is significantly lower than Nyquist.

If my hypothesis is correct, and the FS100 reads the sensor differently to the F3 such that it is effectively 1280x720 R,G,B samples (or thereabouts), then the reason for your Imatest figures of 772 and 756 (850/840 for 30% mtf) are quite simply that those figures are so high due to aliases. "Garbage resolution" as Imatest put it.

I think it would be very interesting to point an FS3 and an FS100 at the same zone plate, especially one with an out of band response. I'm pretty sure I know what I'd expect to see...... :-)

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

But listen to Phillip -- a shooter with a reasonable level of skill can deal with the AF100 issues. If you really look at all the samples, the AF100 looks great. In fact, it always looks better with great color and nice contrast. The others offer only a tiny increment in resolution -- and when the re-spin of the VG10 arrives it will have the same resolution for only $2000. So, you are paying a lot for resolution in May that will be equalled in Sept.

As Philip rightly says, the point of a game involving imperfect cameras is to buy the camera wit the "most bang for the buck." In your heart you know which one that is given the lenses you own.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

[QUOTE=Alister Chapman;1648541]The FS100 was designed by and is built by the Sony Shinegawa factory which is responsible for Sony's PV products (pro video) and consumer products. The F3 was designed and is built at the Atsugi factory which is where all the broadcast gear is produced. The two teams are completely separate.

Exactly!

The FS100 is part of the NEX (with E-mount) series consumer/prosumer series. Specifically it is the prosumer version of the consumer VG10.

The FS100 looks more advanced TODAY ONLY because the VG10 is almost 9-months old. Wait for the 16MP re-spin of the VG10 -- then the FS100 will look like an expensive version of a consumer camera.

What the two teams share is the ability to buy the same sensor from yet another Sony division. And the Sony consumer/prosumer group are using this choice of chip to build a "uses the same chip" marketing program. And, it does deliver 2-stops greater sensitivity so the marketing ABOUT THE CHIP is not a lie.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

S16 is roughly 7mm smaller in diameter than the AF100 image circle. The chances of your lenses covering an AF100 are not very good. Test away, but doubtful.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Especially the 9.5mm Super Speed Distagon, which only just managed to cover Super 16..

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Brian,

I measured the lense diameters a while back, can't remember the exact figures now and your right the 9.5mm would have vignetting and would have to reframe on that lens However the 25mm and 16mm, will be okay the 12mm may need a little reframing. Not good when the starting resolution is only 680 lines.

Steve
Are you sure they won't just discontinue the VG10? The VG10 seems to have a pretty awful picture when you could buy a 5D for about the same price?

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Here is a link to a trailer I made using the EX1 and Letus
Vampire Gang Origins (2011) - IMDb

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Alister, it does strike me that rather than the matter being debated on forums, are you in a position to put a question directly to Sony? To directly ask, "given the same physical sensor in the FS100 and the F3, are the photosites read out in the same way"?

AFAIK, the FS100 doing a full de-Bayer (as the F3) is not something they have ever claimed - it's just what people have assumed given the same physical chip.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

I agree with what you say, with the caveat that the plotted MTF curve normally gives very clear indications of aliasing and resolution above Nyquist as this tends to reveal itself as bumps or flat areas on the plot. The FS100 plots show a quite steep and uniform curve going down to MTF15 at system Nyquist, then there is a bump at about 1650 LW/PH on both the F3 and FS100 plots which corresponds to the out of band aliasing/moire see on the zone plates.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

David. I have asked and fished for that very answer, but Sony will not say anything beyond "It's a bayer sensor and we cannot say more".

Zone plates show both the F3 and FS100 to have the same vertical resolution, but the FS100 having more horizontal aliasing. Out of band moire is very similar for both.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Measuring the lens will do you no good. You need to measure the projected image diameter set at the proper depth of focus. The light does not exit parallel, it converges to the focal point.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Zone plates show both the F3 and FS100 to have the same vertical resolution, but the FS100 having more horizontal aliasing. Out of band moire is very similar for both.

Alister
What do you measure the resolution at?

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

FS100 MTF50 was about 730 LW/PH. The results are earlier in the thread somewhere.

Here are the MTF 50 plots for the Letus on EX1 based on Marks frame grabs.

Vertical = measured 433 LW/PH, corrected 639 LW/PH
Horizontal = measured 503 LW/PH corrected 675 LW/PH

Well short of the 925 LW/PH of the EX without the adapter.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Hi Alister

I don't think you should use MY framegrabs to measure resolution as I downloaded it from the internet and printed it out. The idea was to give the figures for the the EX1 chart and for the EX1 with letus and that way you can judge roughly the difference between them.

Could you measure the resolution on my frame grab for the EX1 only as well? Or have you done this?

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Alister

Did you test both pictures thinking they were both taken with the letus? Looking at the frame grabs it appears as if you have although I'm unfamiliar with this process.

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

The great thing about the Imatest process is that it does not use the trumpets or other traditional resolution measuring parts of the chart. All it needs a dark to light diagonal line. A very poorly printed chart will degrade the results, but most inkjet or laser printed charts will give a reasonably accurate result.

One plot is horizontal the other vertical. Both done from the letus chart.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Thanks Alister

I think it would only be fair to do the same test on the EX1 picture as we dont know what resolution is lost through my unscientific frame grabs.

Mark

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

I'll try and run the bare EX charts over the weekend.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Would a higher quality lens make much difference this figure?

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

I don't think so. The same lens gives well over 850 LW/PH on the F3. I've tried various lenses and get the similar numbers on the F3 and FS100 including Zeiss Ultras on the F3.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Mark:

Re your earlier question about reliability, my earlier experiences with the Letus are based on a borrowed unit that was supposed to have been little used, and my own first original Letus35 (no flip) in which I had motor wire break off after a short time. I put up with it because it was the only game in town, and it was a pain.

Your trailer post above would be more helpful if it was shown in higher definition. But I think it still exhibits typical Letus softness. I am not saying it is objectionable, even -- it actually looks great in a lot of ways.
And that is what makes this debate about lines of resolution a bit ridiculous. What I care about is how my audience receives my work, not how many lines I get up on the screen. That is why the 5D, even with its lower end numbers and other disabilities is still playing in the game.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

David, the FS100 is most likely a prosumer NEX. The consumer NEX VG10 is a 1920x1080 camera using a 14MP chip.

I really doubt there would be any reason to even think the FS100 was using the F3 chip to get a 1280x720 resolution. There would no logical reason to do this and then upscale to 1920x1080.

Plus, both the F3 and FS100 are 800ISO cameras. So, the "magic" that is used to get the extra sensitivity is being used by both cameras -- even more reason to believe the sensor (which we know to be the same) and the DSP operate in an identical manner.

However, one option never mentioned is that although the same DSP may used in the F3 and FS100, the power differences came from the clock-rate the chip is run at. To process 4:4:4 10-bit data means the chip needs to run much faster than when processing 4:2:2 8-bit data. You need to understand that the de-bayer -- done on 3.7Mpixels, can directly create YUV at either 4:2:2 8-bit (for HDMI output) or 4:4:4 10-bit (for HD-SDIi output). For 4:2:0 encoding, both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 are decimated to 4:2:0.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

Hi Chris


Some pics attached for you to have a look at.

Steve don't forget the FS100 is using 8bit signal processsing so that's going to cut down power consumption too.

I can't see any softness in the Letus only that the edge sharpening is TURNED off on the EX1?

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

I though Steve that you were suggesting that the "magic" was happening at the sensor level with pixels groups being read together off the chip as opposed to singly to overcome all the normal readout speed and heat issues associated with trying to read every pixel with DSLR type pixel counts? In which case the sensitivity would not change significantly if the debayer was less sophisticated.

If the sensor is read the way David is suggesting then the sensitivity would be the very similar to the F3.

I'm not convinced by either theory. I think the differences are just down to a less sophisticated DSP in the FS100.

Re: Upcoming hands-on comparison of F3, FS100 and AF100 from Philip Bloom
 

I'd suggest you might want to reduce the detail correction levels or raise the frequency your using Mark to get rid of the thick black line around the guy's nose and the girls dress. I don't like the smooth lack of texture on the guys skin (the girl is better), nor the blown out skin tones. The images lack any real contrast only crushed blacks and blown whites, but very little in between. The girls hair is just a solid black mass on the right side, no texture or detail of any sort at all, makes it look like crushed video. Sorry, not to my liking, but that's just my opinion and others will of course differ.