Production Stopped on PD-170
 

I just read that they stopped production on the PD-170 due to the hiss problem when the LCD is open----Anyone hear the same?

Do you have a link?

Jeff, here is a link: http://www.abcdv.com/article/articleview/237/1/66/

Times must be tough for Sony. I don't understand how they could let this flawed design slip into their production line, expecially after their VX/PD5 hissing thing.

Wild guess, but maybe they are hearing footsteps and didn't want to lose market share, so they rushed it out the door. In this day and age, with the Internet and forums like this, companies just can't get away with stuff like that.

PAL version only.

The good news is That Sony appears to be addressing the problem.

They aren't unique. I've shipped major bits of new electronic equipment and had it fail in the field. After very serious testing.

Unlikely that it was a rush out the door. I still don't know of any real competition for the PD150 (as I use it in my video business). I doubt that Sony was hearing any footsteps. The 24p and HD markets aren't big enough for them to jump before they are good and ready.

It happens to Detroit . . . the Vega, GM's V-8 diesel, Chrysler's auto trans in the mini-van, Ford's bad valve train and head gaskets in the early 3.8 liter V-6 engines. Firestone's SUV tires. Even the super-brands have their screw-ups. Macintosh stereo equipment, Tektronix oscilloscopes . . .

Fortunately companies like Sony, Macintosh and Tektronix stand behind the gear much better than the car companies.

Mike-This even happened to both my JVC 500 and 5000. I was one of the first to receive these cameras and within weeks there were upgrades. Maybe the lesson here is to wait but I had decided to purchase them anyway. Anyway, there were firmware upgrades made to both cameras and I had them back within a week.

I always try to buy on the back side of the leading edge.

Ya gotta love them pioneers, huh?

I hate it when I am one.

Had good luck buying a JVC 550 though. It is a great little camera for the price.

I have a question:
 

How do we know, as consumers, that we won't be buying one of the flawed NTSC PD 170 models even if we wait until the end of January? What will stop a retail store from trying to liquidate their stock of the "bad" PD 170s by telling us that we are buying one of the upgraded models? Will Sony be printing something on the outside of the box to alert us that the product we are buying is the fixed model? I know this sounds paranoid, but I'm not sure if the retailers have to take a loss on their stocked flawed PD 170s or do they get to send them back to Sony? You can be damned sure that I won't be buying a flawed one and then rely on Snoy to fix it.

Anybody have any answers?

Hugh, are you sure this issue even effects NTSC models? Lou states above that it is a PAL only issue. The link to the site is also European and makes no mention of NTSC models.

Dealers do not have a financial incentive to keep defective product in their inventories. Manufactures pay shipping etc. for returns under these circumstances.

Are you guys aware that this news is regularly update at

www.global-dvc.org/html/PD170.asp ?


Sounds like an NTSC problem too.

It is an NTSC problem too. Shame. I was going to buy one at the beginning of the new year. Rats.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : I still don't know of any real competition for the PD150 (as I use it in my video business). I doubt that Sony was hearing any footsteps. -->>>

You mean that for you the Panasonic DVC80 is no real threat for the PD150 or PD170? Have you tried it?

To start with that Panasonic seems to be a lot better in the audio area and the wide angle area. Though maybe the difference in the latter is not that huge.

The Sony might be a bit better on the low light side, but not that much either.

But you can't compare the internal menu setups you have on the DVC80, not to speak of the DVX100, when compared with those on the PD170.

Why do say the Sony is better? Reliability?

This is a new area I would like to explore on my business, which is location audio rental, adding prosumer video rental too. So I have been trying to gather information on what people were thinking on the Panasonic cameras when compared with the Sony.

Sony's policy for their lower priced models is disgusting. First the noise problem on the PD150, which was not completely cured with their recall; second the curve they use on their mic preamp is only good for dialogue; third they release a new model claiming they improve the audio side and gets hum when you open the LCD. What game are they playing?

It's a fact that Panasonic is having a more agressive attitude with the prosumer market. And I do think it maybe useful for us in waking Sony up from their dream that they had a captive market there.

It's symptomatic how Sony uses to behave as if "they own the land" because they devised a certain product and they end up eating dust because they were not humble enough to accept users' feedback. It happened with the Betacam system, with the walkman and with MD. In all those areas they ended up second or third after other manufacturers did listen to the public.

In my opinion it's happening again now.


Carlos

I hear ya Carlos. On a side note, if I were renting equipment, I might want the ruggedness of the Sony though. Purely from a reliablility standpoint of renting out a cam. What are your thoughts?

Mark G

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Goodsell : On a side note, if I were renting equipment, I might want the ruggedness of the Sony though. Purely from a reliablility standpoint of renting out a cam. What are your thoughts?
-->>>

Hey Mark!

After a long time of getting information on what's available, it looks as if the Panasonic DVC80 is a more thorough option than the PDs or VXs for me. It might be better to go for a DVX100A, but the 80 seems like a pretty good deal.

As I am planning to use them on my projects too, I should be buying two of them probably.

Reliability is a point though. But I must confess I hate Sony's attitude toward we users, so if I can I will go a different way from theirs.

Sony's cameras start to get real good when we get to $5,000, but below that I don't think they are leaders anymore or respect people who use those products. If Panasonic releases a 16:9 or HD model in the next few years, they will be THE way to go.


Carlos

After my experiences with Panasonic and JVC service (almost non-existent a few years back) I won't buy their products. In fact, the local community college categorically will not buy Panasonic for that reason.

In my business, low light capability is very important.

I don't have a problem with the PD150 audio capabilities. It suits my customers just fine.

I want the best product for the job. For me, that's the 150 and the service and support I can get from Sony when I need it.

Personally, I've heard nothing but "rugged", regarding the pd150, and skepticism and argument about the dvc80/dvx100. I'm not saying the latter aren't at all rugged, but the edge (as well as familiarity, and also rumor) goes a long way.
A four year long reputation of ruggedness, as well as quality in image, goes a long, long way, for buyers in all corners of the market.

DVCAM goes a long way, with cases of these Sony cams being bought by news people alone. DVCAM is not a prosumer/indie based feature, it's a professional standard. This should tell us right off the bat who this cam is more oriented towards.

Having the edge(s) iin low light certainly goes a long way, for news folk, doc. makers, and whoever else might list that high in importance (self).

Maybe Sony does need a wake up (I suspect they do), and maybe they will get it. People like Global-DVC are exactly what's needed in this world. We, the people, have an active responsibility, to ourselves, to directly put companies directly in touch with what's ok and what is not, whether or not they put out an otherwise excellent product.

I have considered the dvc80 over and over, over the pd150/pd170, with it's great price point, but, ultimately, am won over by the above mentioned factors (rep. for ruggedness, low light perf., DVCAM).

Anyway, just thinking out loud.
Shawn

ps the dvc80 is a great deal. Snatch it if it's what's right!

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : After my experiences with Panasonic and JVC service (almost non-existent a few years back) I won't buy their products. In fact, the local community college categorically will not buy Panasonic for that reason.-->>>

Where I live (Brazil) you can't really get serious service from any Japanese company, particularly on imported products. To repair anything I have to send it to the US.

But what I could find out is that Sony is also disregarding that area in the US too. For instance: portable DATs maintenance or repair, which was reasonable good until a few years ago, now seems to be non-existent. I tried to find out about it for my portable DAT and it may not be possible to repair it.

About your local community college, I wonder how are they dealing with THE prosumer camera of the moment being the Panasonic DVX100A. Everybody is using them for video for film projects.

<<<-- In my business, low light capability is very important. -->>>

That seems not be too much of a problem for the larger (1/3") CCD Panasonics, but it is for the smaller ones (1/8").

<<<--I don't have a problem with the PD150 audio capabilities. It suits my customers just fine. -->>>

OK.

<<<-- I want the best product for the job. For me, that's the 150 and the service and support I can get from Sony when I need it. -->>>

I respect that. But I think things may start going a different way between Sony and Panasonic, market and service wise.



Carlos

<<<-- Originally posted by Carlos E. Martinez : <<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : After my experiences with Panasonic and JVC service (almost non-existent a few years back) I won't buy their products. In fact, the local community college categorically will not buy Panasonic for that reason.-->>>

Where I live (Brazil) you can't really get serious service from any Japanese company, particularly on imported products. To repair anything I have to send it to the US.

------------------
Ouch! I understand the pain of not having local service. Sounds like a business opportunity.
------------------

But what I could find out is that Sony is also disregarding that area in the US too. For instance: portable DATs maintenance or repair, which was reasonable good until a few years ago, now seems to be non-existent. I tried to find out about it for my portable DAT and it may not be possible to repair it.

------------------------
I don't think the camera group is in charge of DATs. I get very good service from Sony with my cameras.

You have to understand that Japanese companies are not in the business of making repair parts. Only for the pro gear do they seem to stock parts for very long. They throw away broken electronic consumer equipment.

When I was importing scanners from Japan and asked for spares, the reply was, 'buy more scanners.'
------------------------

About your local community college, I wonder how are they dealing with THE prosumer camera of the moment being the Panasonic DVX100A. Everybody is using them for video for film projects.
-----------------------
The college is very happy with their assortment of 8-year-old Sony VX1000's and 900's. Trouble-free. Good quality. Not everyone is buying the Panasonic.

In fact, it is losing out right now to the little HD camera that was recently introduced. 24 fps is apparenlty not nearly important as HD. I don't know, I don't do movies.
-----------------------
<<<-- In my business, low light capability is very important. -->>>

That seems not be too much of a problem for the larger (1/3") CCD Panasonics, but it is for the smaller ones (1/8").
-------------------
In practice, it has been reported (not by me) that the panny is not equal to the 150/170 in low light. Mainly by the Wedding people.
------------------
<<<--I don't have a problem with the PD150 audio capabilities. It suits my customers just fine. -->>>

OK.

<<<-- I want the best product for the job. For me, that's the 150 and the service and support I can get from Sony when I need it. -->>>

I respect that. But I think things may start going a different way between Sony and Panasonic, market and service wise.

-----------------
It will be interesting. Nobody has managed to knock Sony off and a lot of them have tried. Perceived market leadership (and most of the world believes that Sony has it) is a massive hurdle for another company to overcome.

And, as someone mentioned before, the best product does not always win.

Were I making a movie and didn't have a camera, then I'd look at the 100A. But I'd probably use something with fully manual lenses in any case.

Cameras are important but content is still the most important part of any movie. I've got a friend that made his first movie with a GL1 and it made it into distribution. That movie cost him $7000 to make.

He wrote and directed a good story. Which is why he now is in New Zealand having written and now directing Mission Impossible 3.



Carlos -->>>

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : Ouch! I understand the pain of not having local service. Sounds like a business opportunity. -->>>

Yes, that will be a new field for me: renting video equipment. When I organized my business, I based it buying mostly equipment that had no moving parts. Only DATs did. Unfortunately Nagra times were gone, as that was a gear that didn't break.

<<<-- I don't think the camera group is in charge of DATs. I get very good service from Sony with my cameras.

You have to understand that Japanese companies are not in the business of making repair parts. Only for the pro gear do they seem to stock parts for very long. They throw away broken electronic consumer equipment. -->>

DAT was in the same category as Prosumer cameras, when professionals started to use it. Both formats were not taken seriously. The problem is I think there has been a change in Sony's policy, for the worst. I think you should be prepared, because that may be happening World wise.

<<<-- The college is very happy with their assortment of 8-year-old Sony VX1000's and 900's. Trouble-free. Good quality. Not everyone is buying the Panasonic. -->>>

Those two cameras were quite good, and if they are in working order they should be enough for college works.

<<<-- In fact, it is losing out right now to the little HD camera that was recently introduced. 24 fps is apparenlty not nearly important as HD. I don't know, I don't do movies. -->>>

If you mean the JVC camera, you are misinformed. Video for film projects are being done with DVX100, XL1s and PD150 mostly, and nobody I know of is using the JVC HD for that. In fact I wish things were different, as being HD and 16:9 was a good point to start with a film project. But the camera seems only suited, quality wise, for the home-video maker who won't see the artifacts the JVC camera delivers.

<<<-- In practice, it has been reported (not by me) that the panny is not equal to the 150/170 in low light. Mainly by the Wedding people. -->>>

Weddings is not something I am very much interested on, certainly not for rentals.

<<<-- It will be interesting. Nobody has managed to knock Sony off and a lot of them have tried. Perceived market leadership (and most of the world believes that Sony has it) is a massive hurdle for another company to overcome.-->>>

In the walkmam an and MD fields I mentioned, Sony was certainly knocked off. In the home video area Panasonic was leader until DV came in.

<<<-- And, as someone mentioned before, the best product does not always win. -->>>

Sony's Betamax was certainly a proof ot that.

<<<-- Were I making a movie and didn't have a camera, then I'd look at the 100A. But I'd probably use something with fully manual lenses in any case.-->>>

The only prosumer camera that has fully manual lens is the XL1; then you have to go above $5,000 to get another. But the XL1 slowed down. The DVX100 has been the best to come along at a reasonable price that improves on what the XL1 and PD150 had achieved, particularly on video for film projects.

<<<--Cameras are important but content is still the most important part of any movie. I've got a friend that made his first movie with a GL1 and it made it into distribution. That movie cost him $7000 to make. -->>>

On that I completely agree with you. But film goers are getting more and more demanding, so quality has to be good.



Carlos

<<<--Cameras are important but content is still the most important part of any movie. I've got a friend that made his first movie with a GL1 and it made it into distribution. That movie cost him $7000 to make. -->>>

On that I completely agree with you. But film goers are getting more and more demanding, so quality has to be good.

Actually, the way many movies are judged today, for the great viewing audience (not the discerning audience) is by turning the display of time on on the VCR, placing it in Play, Fast-forward and then insuring that every 5 minutes (by the time display) something violent occurs. A fight, something blows up, someone is killed, etc.

Rule-of-thumb or so I've been told by folks that make a living making movies for Hollywood distribution.

In fact, my friend's $7,000 movie was "Blood, Guts, Bullets & Octane." His second was Narc, the third is Mission Impossible 3. All fit the 5 minute filter perfectly. Super violence and action at a steady rate, pass the popcorn please.

BTW, here, the JVC HD camera is currently shooting serious productions. It's the Next Great Thing for the technofiles.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus :
In fact, my friend's $7,000 movie was "Blood, Guts, Bullets & Octane." His second was Narc, the third is Mission Impossible 3. -->>>

Your friend made a nice career. Narc is a very good film.

<<<-- BTW, here, the JVC HD camera is currently shooting serious productions. It's the Next Great Thing for the technofiles. -->>>

The information I had was also about the JVC HD not being use in the US for movie projects. Please do tell me what productions are being shot with it.


Carlos

I don't follow the movie world that closely so it's stuff I read in Millimeter, DV, Video System, etc. And pick up from indie film makers that are more connected into the local (San Francisco) scene than I.

BTW, the brief preproduction Panny 100A review I read (William Witt, DV Mag) makes it sound like a fairly nice unit.

What surprised me was what was lacking in the original model. I'd forgotten, for example, how difficult it was to accomplish a clean slow zoom with the camera and how bad the autofocus (including push-to-focus) was in the 100. The zoom has been worked on but the autofocus is apparently really effected by the 24p mode.