PD 170 Best settings?
 

Hi all,

I just got my PD 170 in yesterday and I'll mainly be using it to shoot weddings. I am having trouble though finding the best setting combinations (Gain, shutter speed, iris...etc, etc.) for low light situations.

Can anyone help?

...and thanks

IMO there is no such thing as BEST settings-each and every situation will call for something a bit different.
I suggest you "play" with the camera and LEARN the various controls and settings and what each one does by trial and error under a no job setting (don't want to practice on a paying customer) until you become comfortable with both the controls and what you can do with them.

I've shot jobs where I've shot at 1/60th and f2 with 12db of gain and 2 weeks later in the same room I was at 1/60th, f4 and 0 gain. No 2 situations are the same.
Now having said that a basic starting point could be 1/60th at f4 with 0 gain and go from there. Move the gain up to 3 or open the iris to 2.8 move the gain up to 6 and open the iris to f2. You've got to play a bit to learn the best setting for the look you're going for.

Don

I agree...
 

Thanks, Don - and yes, I agree with you. I was just trying to get input as what the average PD170 pro might use in say, 10 - 20 watts of lighting to be specific. I played with it a lot last night and it seems hard to get even a fair result under these conditions. I understand of course that with very little lighting its much harder to get good results, but I thought there may be some standard tricks to a very low lit situation since the 170 supposed to be so good in this category.

Brandon,
With a 10/20W light in virtually pitch black conditions (they turn off almost every light in the joint) I've gotten very good results. Remember a 20W light is only going to throw at best 10-12 feet and still be effective.


For that kind of situation I generally wind up at 1/60th f2 or LESS and perhaps up to 12db of gain. Using those settings I have very good footage to choose from. Even using a 50W light which I do when needed, the throw is still only perhaps 15 ft but it gives me a chance to use either a smaller iris OR less gain. Of course a 50W light is "kinda bright" but with the 20W you should be able to get very acceptable footage.

Don

Thanks again, Don...looks like I'm looking for help in all the right places. You guys are great.

Do not forget you can set up custom pre-sets (CP) via the small button located at the rear of the handle. You can lower saturation, change the phase/tint to match other cameras, raise or lower detail, adjust the Automatic Exposure and put a GAIN limit if you ever use auto functions. BUT.............after setting same DO NOT forget to engage the menu to ON.
You will observe a CP in the EVF.

Hi Lou,
Yeah I use the CP so much I forgot about it. By using YOUR settings on the JVC5000 and playing with the CP on the 150 I can ALMOST :-) get them to match...at least pretty close, well a lot closer than the first test I ran when I first got the 5000. Surprisng how close you can really get the 2 cameras with a bit of trial and error.

Don

Thanks Lou,

What a great tip.

YEAH.....................so many people in my shop are not aware of this. I can match almost every camera with each other..........using a good monitor of course.

LOU

Matching Cameras
 

Lou,

Sounds like you have got camera matching down pat.

I have a shoot with a PD170 and GL2 coming up next weekend. Can you offer any guidance or specific steps on configuring the PD170 to match the GL2?

BTW, I had previously started a thread on this specific question. You may want to post your response here:
Using a PD170 and GL2 Together.

Many thanks,
Pete

Speaking of custom presets... Try bumping the sharpness down one notch - it helps to soften some of the hard edges. Helps a little to cure the DV look (my opinion).

ooops!@#%!#@#

I like to keep the iris open as much as possible for low light shooting. Don't forget to pump up the gain. I also change the shutter speed from 1/60 to 1/30. While this has NOTHING to do with how much light enters the camera, the finished product (imho) actually looks better.

The best thing about having a PD170 is that there's so many options, you'll find new things to do with it every day.

How do you figure that changing the shutter speed doesn't change the amount of light that enters the camera?

Because the shutter speed has nothing to do with the actual shutter speed (since there is no shutter). What it does control is the amount of time (to a point) between read/refresh cycles on the CCDs. The longer the CCD is allowed to integrate the incoming light, the more apparently sensitive the camera becomes. The downside is that the CCD is also integrating more noise, hence the salt and pepper effect in the image.

Well, changing the "shutter speed" on the PD170 DOES change the exposure in a manner like a physical shutter would. If I increase the shutter speed, the exposure is decreased in the same way as a physical shutter that would decrease amount of time the CCDs are exposed to the light.

The previous posts were ill-worded. Shutters on film cameras do not control how much light enters the camera -- they control how LONG the film is exposed to the light.

For whatever reason camcorder manufacturers have used the shutter terminology. So as to not confuse people, it would seem to me that to state that "changing shutter speed has nothing to do with how much like enters the camera" is misleading at best.

The exposure that will get recorded by a camcorder on tape (or disk or memory) is a function of both f-stop and shutter speed.

Mike, do you have any references which discuss the actual mechanics and electronics of how "shutters" work on a camcorder?

Best Regards,
Pete

Well, changing the "shutter speed" on the PD170 DOES change the exposure in a manner like a physical shutter would. If I increase the shutter speed, the exposure is decreased in the same way as a physical shutter that would decrease amount of time the CCDs are exposed to the light.

No it is not changed in the same way and it is not an accurate analogy although, in many cases, it is an OK working analogy.

The results that are recorded are the same, perhaps, but not the method. Thinking that there is a physical shutter inside the camera could lead someone familiar with film-based cameras to make some unwarranted assumptions. Play with the 'Shutter Speeds' in a video camera and you will see what I mean.

The previous posts were ill-worded. Shutters on film cameras do not control how much light enters the camera -- they control how LONG the film is exposed to the light.

Depends on where you measure the light inside the cameras but the statement is incorrect. The exposure is, in reality, the number of photons that strike the silver halide crystals. The number of photons striking the film can be controlled by varying the aperature and the duration of the exposure. For normal exposure times, a slower shutter speed has the same effect as opening the aperature further.

For whatever reason camcorder manufacturers have used the shutter terminology. So as to not confuse people, it would seem to me that to state that "changing shutter speed has nothing to do with how much like enters the camera" is misleading at best.

I do not agree. The amount of light that enters a camera is a function of the effective lens aperature among other things. Since there is no physical shutter, it can play no role whatsoever. Furthermore, changing the shutter speed leads to unwanted artifacts in some cases. Artifacts that would not be expected or accounted for by thinking the shutter is a mechanical device.

The exposure that will get recorded by a camcorder on tape (or disk or memory) is a function of both f-stop and shutter speed.

That is correct. The key word is 'recorded.'

Mike, do you have any references which discuss the actual mechanics and electronics of how "shutters" work on a camcorder?

Only technical references regarding how CCDs work and how they are deployed in video cameras. I'm citing personal knowledge since a startup company of which I was a part in the early 1980's, built the first digital cameras and desktop scanners.

Mike,

I guess I just don't follow your assertions.

I have "played" with the shutter speed many times, and even experimented some tonight. When the shutter speed is increased the exposure is decreased, just like it does with a still 35mm camera with a physical shutter.

So just like in most any other camera, the exposure is affected by both the shutter speed on the f-stop. Don't criticize me for using the term "shutter speed" with camcorders, since all manufacturers use that exact term. It is reasonable to expect that since the industry standard uses "shutter speed" with camcorders even thought there is not a physical shutter, that there is an analogy with the shutter on film cameras.

I would agree that the shutter is implemented differently on film cameras than on video cameras, but I would argue that using the shutter has similar effects.

In both film and video:
1. As I increase shutter speed, the exposure is decreased, and the action is captured with more sharpness.
2. As I decrease shutter speed, the exposure is increased, and the action is captured with less sharpness, even blurring the motion.

I can't see how you can conclude "Since there is no physical shutter, it can play no role whatsoever." when it is easily demonstrated that changing the shutter speed affects both exposure and image sharpness. I would imagine that if the shutter speed had no use on a video camera the manufacturers would quit providing that feature since no one would be using it.

Best Regards,
Pete

Your analogy works to a point. But the real differences between a still film and a video start showing up as you change the 'shutter speed' very far from normal.

Yes, if you increase 'shutter speed', the individual frames with moving objects does have less motion artifacts. However, go very far and the resulting video looks strange. Try it and see.

If you decrease 'shutter speed,' very far, you will find that the camera stops delivering interlaced frames and just repeats a single field. Instant loss of resolution.

So while your analogy holds up for the exposure portion of the equation, it does not work for the artifacts changing shutter speed in a video camera may create.

That is exactly why one has to be careful how statements are made on the forum. There are people reading the posts who don't know the full set of issues attached to making adjustments on video cameras. Especially when the camera companies use misleading terms.

With regard to the presence of a shutter. If it is not physically there, how can it play any role in camera operation? If you had said, the shutter speed control, then that would have been accurate.

Mike,

Sorry, but I find this amusing. :-)

How can you accept "shutter speed" without accepting "shutter"?
IAC, my original post referred to "shutter speed".

Hey, look, we all know that there is no physical shutter in a camcorder. However, the manufacturers have chosen to implement a control called "shutter speed" that is pure electronics, and only mimics the function of a physical shutter. So, as long as it's called a "shutter", and changing the speed of it does in fact change the exposure and image sharpness in a manner similar to physical camera shutters, it is reasonable to discuss it as such.
I couldn't agree with you more. That was the motivation for my original post. To state that "Because the shutter speed has nothing to do with the actual shutter speed (since there is no shutter). " might imply to many that changing the shutter speed will have no effect. This is simply not true.

Changing the shutter speed on a camcorder has a similar effect to that of film cameras that have physical shutters, but may also produce other effects that may or may not be desired.

Best Regards,
Pete

Because this was your original statement: "How do you figure that changing the shutter speed doesn't change the amount of light that enters the camera?"

On a camcorder, changing Shutter Speed does not change the amount of light entering the camera. That is not what Shutter Speed does on a camcorder. Changing Shutter Speed on a camcorder changes the CCD's Integration cycle time.

Well, I guess by now we've said all there is to say. I'm sure everyone by now thoroughly confused. :-)

Hopefully those interested will experiment with their camcorders to observe for themselves the effects of changing shutter speed, regardless of whether it has a shutter or not.

Best Regards,
Pete

Shutter speeds.
 

One thing that I notice when I switch my shutter speed from 60 to 30 is that the image does look softer. The images does look more "film like" but that softness can hurt you if you're shooting in low light situations without a camera light.

Even with the sensitivity of the PD 150/170 and post production color correction, those images that you've shot with your shutter speed set at 30, shooting in low light without a camera light will look as if you shot it with a cheap consumer camera.

I would shoot at 30 all the time if I could, but I can always count on the images being sharper and cleaner when the shutter speed is on 60.

Because the camera drops interlace and just repeats a single field, losing 1/2 of the vertical resolution.