Sony tapes in a Sony camcorder?
 

This might sound like a rediculous question, so forgive me!

Are Sony camcorders optimized for the lubricant on Sony tapes? If I start using Sony tapes in a new PD-170, am I forever limited to using Sony tapes in it?

I've been renting a VX-2000 and I used a Sony tape in it the first time, and the footage came out unusable. I was told that it was because the Sony tapes use a 'wet' lubricant, and all others do not. Since this camcorder has never had Sony tapes in it before, it gummed up and created a mess. So, that's why I'm asking this. I've seen other posts here about this issue, but didn't find anything related to Sony camcorders being optimized for Sony brand tapes.

Thanks,
Dan

Can't give you a definitive answer on this, but can tell you that I've only used Sony tapes in my VX-2000 and PDX-10. No problems. If you were using a rented camera then there's no telling what it may have been subjected to before you got it.

Sony tapes. Sony camera. Seems logical to me...

Thanks Boyd... I agree that it seems logical to use Sony tapes in a Sony camcorder, and I have no problems with that at all. My only concern is that if I'm out at a shoot and in an emergency I need an extra tape or two, I can't just use any tape. If a local store or a fellow videographer doesn't have a Sony tape, I'd be in trouble. Works the other way around as well... if all I have are Sony tapes and a friend needs a tape, unless he uses Sony he can't use mine. Why would Sony makes tapes that isolate themselves from all the other brands? Is a wet lubricant better than dry?

I guess if I just made sure I had an abundance of tapes with me this wouldn't ever become an issue. None of this is a huge deal at all, as I'm sure any tape will work perfectly fine in the PD-170. I just wondered if the tape mecahnism and heads were specifically designed for Sony tapes.

Thanks again!
Dan

Does Sony use the same lubricant on all of their various tape types?

I guess I go against the grain as I use Panasonic PQ tapes in my 150s, old vx1000 and JVC5000. This is only my opinion but I don't see a difference if you use one brand or another as long as you use ONLY that brand. With a rented camera you never know what tapes ran thru it and I bet the rental house dosen't know or care either. Not to mention they probably don't clean the heads before they rent it out again.

In all the time I've used the Panny tapes, and they are the only tapes to ever go thru my cameras except for the VX1000 which had a thru and thru cleaning a few years ago, I have not had any real dropout problems. Maybe I'm just lucky but the 150s each have over 900 hours on them. The VX1000 probably has 2 times that and the JVC has 120 hours.
Pick 1 brand of tape and stay with it. Of course thats just my opinion.

Don

True, however I've found that WalMart, Target, Best Buy and CompUSA all carry the Sony premium tapes for ~$5. Is there anywhere left in this country where one of these stores isn't within a short drive? ;-)

Why not buy tapes of your choice thru a tape supplier. I think 1 is a sponsor for this site-get them in bulk and save some bucks. You can get 5-10-15-20 or 1000s if you want. That way you'll never run out.

Don

I buy my premium Sony tapes through the mail in bulk at about $3.25 a pop. Not bad at all when they give you free shipping!

Thanks for all the replies.

I guess my best bet would be to use nothing but Sony tapes. I'll just stock up and always keep plenty of extras with me. I agree that Sony would know how to best make tapes for their own camcorders. It will be less convenient, though, because I have another Canon camcorder that I'll be using as well, and I have only run Panasonic tapes through it.

Thanks again everyone!

Dan

Hi Dan,

I have a 150 and 2100, and I use the Panasonic MQ tapes. Dry lubricant, and they work fine. Being consistent with tapes helps too so you don't have to run different ones through your deck. Clean the mechanism in your camera real well, and you won't have to switch between Sony and Panasonic. You won't accidentally grab the wrong tape for your camera when under pressure, and you won't gum up the VTR deck either.

Dave

Sony Tapes
 

I shoot with a vx2000 and a 2100, have only used sony tapes. One camera is two years old and have not had to even clean the heads once. See the "sticky" at the beginning of this area by Mike Rehmus.

Apologies, didn't see this thread, and I've already posted a new thread on tape drop outs..
I have always used Sony Premium tape with my VX2100, and have not noticed any major problems. I have occasionally had capture problems (to my PowerMac / FCP 4.5) but the actual tapes themselves seemed to be OK.
The wedding I shot last Saturday changed all that tho' (see other thread).
One of my questions is why should changing tape brand make any difference? I asked Sony tech support and was told that the tape brand does not matter....
The other question is whether the Sony Excellence tape is any better than the Premium tape. I have done a lot of audio recording and I know that tape quality makes a huge difference with an analogue signal. With digital I'm not so sure, but logically if the tape has a high noise floor (tape hiss in analogue terms) then the signal to noise ratio will be degraded, thus the signal could still be at risk - even if it's a digital one. Does that make sense?
So do I now try Sony Excellence tapes - or another 'pro' brand, or will it further screw things up as I'm now experiencing serious tape drop-outs (with Premium).
Note too that I occasionally capture from Pana tapes shot on a Panasonic 953. Capture has been OK. But have I messed things up in my VX...?
Tape head cleaning is with a Sony tape; is the Pana cleaning tape any better for cleaning the VX after capturing the Pana tapes..?
I'm baffled.. ..and can't use my VX..
Thx.
Rgds,
Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~

Ross, here's what I understand, and hopefully if I'm wrong about anything, someone will jump in and correct me.

The Sony tapes use a 'wet' lubricant on their tapes, and all other brands use a 'dry' lubricant. If you use Sony tapes, and then pop in a non-Sony tape, the change in lubricants can muck up the heads, and in my case one time, the tape itself, resulting in tons of drop-outs.

I was in the opposite situation with a rented vx-2000 once. It had never had Sony tapes run through it, and I used a Sony tape myself not knowing I needed to use Panasonic. My resulting tape had so many drop-outs it was nearly unuseable. I was told it was because of the difference in lubricants... ran a cleaning tape through several times, recorded about 15 minutes of blank footage, and then it worked fine with a Panasonic tape afterwards.

As far as your head cleaning tapes, I'm not sure myself. Hopefully someone more experienced will chime in.

Dan

Here's a thought....
 

Presumably I could take an analogue output from the VX into the analogue input of another videocam, then either record onto that cam, or take its Firewire direct to my Mac - i.e. use the other cam (Panasonic 953) in pass-through mode....??
Sort of D to A to D type of thing..? Need to borrow the other camera again.. If I can get a reasonable video signal into FCP, I can probably get a watchable result... drop the original (glitchy) audio, and add suitable music...
Doesn't solve my VX problem, but might be a way of saving something from the wedding shoot..

BTW, I saw somewhere on the web that the Sony Excellence has a better signal (carrier) to noise figure, and is of different construction (Metal Evaporated) so theoretically it should perform better than the Premium.
Anyone know if there's a site which gives tech specs of the tapes..?
Rgds,
Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oh, and another question...
 

Is there a better way to clean the tape heads / mechanism in a VX2100? If I suspect that some material deposit is causing drop-outs, is there a better cleaning method rather than simply just putting the Cleaning Tape through the camera?
The instructions on the cleaning tape state '..use no more than 5 times consecutively'. So that's 5 x 10 seconds. Is the cleaning tape in any way abrasive, or is it simply impregnated with cleaner? The question is whether damage might be caused if run for more than 50 seconds...
So, if my camera requires a more thorough clean, what more is done by a repair shop..? Any ideas?
Thx.
Rgds,
Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll answer a couple of posts here:

1. It only stands to reason that Sony tapes are designed to compliment Sony tape transports.

2. Hopefully the cleaning tape instructions also mentioned to let the heads cool down for a minute between uses of the cleaning tape. Otherwise, if the heads get hot enough, the plastic detritus you are attempting to remove will be melted on. Then it's time for a new head if that happens.

This is because of the speed at which a DV drum rotates. It is much faster than the drums on larger formats.

3. Yes, there is another way to clean the heads but you have to take the door off the tape compartment in most recorders so you can access that area. Then the process is just like cleaning any other drum. A chamois (best use one that is glued on a stick) and the approved cleaning fluid are the appropriate tools.

WARNING - if you don't know how to do this, you risk instant head destruction. It is easy to clean heads in the correct manner. It is also easy to destroy them with an improper technique.

BTW, cleaning tapes don't do much for cleaning the transport bits. For that, one must use cleaning fluid and the appropriate foam-tipped cleaning sticks.

4. Cleaning tapes are quite abrasive and should only be used when you are having problems or, maybe once every 100 hours or so. I have cameras and a DSR-20 that have at least 1,000 hours on them and have never had a cleaning tape run through them. But I will not run anything but Sony tape in them no matter what. If a customer wants me to edit something on a non-Sony tape, they have to provide a deck or camera from which I can pull the video.

5. The DV signal is digital. The 'pulse' is there or it is not there. While more expensive tapes might have a marginal value, in the main, there are no meaningful differences and most of the supposed differences are marketing hype meant to separate you from more money.

Even the DVCAM tapes (and DVCAM itself) aren't necessary for those of us who operate in a NLE environment. DVCAM was designed to give the TV crews who use (still) linear editing systems and heavily reuse their tapes.
I talked to a Sonyfactory rep at NAB and he finally admitted that there is very little advantage to using DVCAM in the NLE studio.

I buy the least expensive Sony DV tapes available from the bulk resellers and pay under $4 per tape in quantities of 5 or more. I have never had a bad tape and I have never had a detectable dropout in 4+ years and hundreds of cassettes. Cameras are PD150's, VX-1000, DSR-300, & PC-110.

Furthermore, the local community college with which I am affiliated has VX-1000's and PD-1's that are over 8 years old and are all in great shape, transport-wise. Students are threatened with a instant expulsion from the Cinema classes and/or a$400 fine if they are ever caught using non-Sony tapes in the cameras or, indeed, anywhere in the studio unless it is in their personal gear. It works.

Now here's a thing....
 

Is it possible for tape tension to affect head contact..?
Right, so I grabbed one of the new tapes (Sony premium) and set it to record (Mac playing music..) for the whole tape.
When played back the first half (30 mins or so had the (now predictable) glitches... thereafter the glitches died out. I have now been viewing/listening to >20mins of glitch-free tape.
I will now try the same experiment again on another tape from the new batch. If the heads have (miraculously) cleaned themselves, then I would expect this new tape to record glitch-free right off the bat. If the problem is not solved, well.. let's wait and see. I guess if it exhibits the same problem (first 30mins with, second 30mins without glitches) then I've got to assume the problem's associated with the tape, cassette, or the mechanism in the camera - a tape tension problem perhaps..... Thoughts? I guess it is possible to have a bad tape batch, right? Unlikely, I agree, but theoretically possible...
I'll report back soon..
Rgds,
Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tape tension has everything to do with head contact. But so does gunk on the heads (or the tape).

Tape is itself abrasive and will tend to clean the head, just not as fast as a cleaning tape.

On bigger machines, where people put in junk rental tapes, it is not unusual to clean the heads with the chamois and then have to run a bit of tape to clean up the final bits of gunk.

Second recording test on a new Sony Premium tape
 

Any guesses as to what the outcome was with the second recording test?
Well, it was the same as for the first tape: first 35 mins or so recorded with glitches / drop-outs - starting evry 1 - 3 seconds, and getting less frequent towards the middle of the tape. At about 30 mins the drop-outs were 10 - 30 seconds apart. From 40mins on however, the recording was fine, and could be captured to FCP without a hitch. No drop-outs at all.
Sounds pretty much like a tape tension issue - either in the camera itself, or in the tape cassette mechanism. I can't think of anything else which would be so time dependent... anyone agree?
Rgds,
Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

There could be other reasons but all of them conclude with a talk with Sony and probably a trip to a repair center.

yep
 

I concur..

Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A work-around.....
 

Connecting the VX2100 to a second camera via Firewire allowed me to transfer the tape contents over to another tape (Pana on the Pansonic 953). The new tape has new timecode from the Pana, so I can now capture this new digital copy over to the Mac - without drop-outs..!
I still have the audio drop-outs to edit out, but now at least I have some usable (Non-degraded) video to work with...!
Phew...
Camera still needs fixing, but at least I'll be able to salvage some wedding footage....
Rgds,
Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Counterpoint
 

It's interesting to see all the threads about either/or tape usage. I have about 2000 hours on a PD-150, a PD-100a, and about 700 hrs on a PDX-10. After adding small format to twenty years of Betacam operation, I just continued to use the top end of the tape food chain- no matter the manufacturer. That is, I have used Fuji, Sony, and Panasonic tapes interchangeably these past four years in my DV cameras. (Fuji and Sony only in BetacamSP) My experience? No drop outs, and only one crunched tape. But, that was eaten by my portable GV-D1000. The dammaged tape was a Sony.

I've always used the more expensive tape emulsions, but wet vs. dry lubrication is an issue I'd not been aware of. Since it's apparently a potential problem, I will stick with Sony going forward, even though that's the only tape that's ever failed me...

Regarding tape integrity and format viability, DV may not be nearly as good as BetaSP in terms of resolution, but I must say that the drop-out rate on DV is the best of any format I've ever used in the past 23 years. Of course, all this might soon be a moot point if Panasonic's P2 cards are the wave of the future.

Rich

The outcome....
 

See above post re drop-outs..
VX head/transport professionally cleaned, and now no drop-puts.
Repair shop uses only Panasonic premium tapes, as they have had some
'bad' Sony premium tape in the past which caused drop out problems. They have never had a drop-out problem with the Pna tape.
Now that the camera is 'clean', I'm switching to Pana premium. Also means that the other camera I use (Panasonic 953) can share my tape stock...
What a saga....!
Rgds,
Ross.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~