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-   -   PD 170 in a Comedy Club (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-vx2100-pd170-pdx10-companion/70783-pd-170-comedy-club.html)

Ryan Leiderman July 3rd, 2006 08:32 PM

PD 170 in a Comedy Club
 
I just bought this bad boy and am very excited to try it out. It was a dissapointment to see the price tag rise and rise with the neccesary accesories, but I digress.

I am a pretty much a novice and I plan on getting some footage of some friends doing stand up in a comedy club. Do you have any suggestions for A. getting the best video in a dark setting and B. picking up the best audio (aside from plugging into the soundboard or using a wireless mic on the comic).

plus any other general tips for this beaut would be appreciated!

Tom Bolia July 3rd, 2006 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Leiderman
I just bought this bad boy and am very excited to try it out. It was a dissapointment to see the price tag rise and rise with the neccesary accesories, but I digress.

I am a pretty much a novice and I plan on getting some footage of some friends doing stand up in a comedy club. Do you have any suggestions for A. getting the best video in a dark setting and B. picking up the best audio (aside from plugging into the soundboard or using a wireless mic on the comic).

plus any other general tips for this beaut would be appreciated!

Ummm... in a setting where there is stage lighting, all I can suggest from the top of my head would be... make sure you white balance. That helps A LOT. And you ruled out the best two forms of getting good audio from a setting where you will obviously have a lot of background noise, so the only other thing I could suggest for you is to sit up front.

Mike Rehmus July 3rd, 2006 10:03 PM

Welcome to the club.

There are a ton of threads on this and other forums about shooting stage events. Do a search for them and you will get more info than you probably want.

Ryan Leiderman July 3rd, 2006 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bolia
Ummm... in a setting where there is stage lighting, all I can suggest from the top of my head would be... make sure you white balance. That helps A LOT. And you ruled out the best two forms of getting good audio from a setting where you will obviously have a lot of background noise, so the only other thing I could suggest for you is to sit up front.


Well, it will be somewhat impromptu filming. Some comedians I won't know and will have to ask their permission shortly before show time--not having built up the rapport yet to frisk and fit them with mics. And I figure the less I hassle and ask of the club, the better (in the hopes they won't kick me out).

You'd think sitting up front is better than sitting near one of the club's speakers? It's fine to get crowd laughter...although it would be a shame to have it ruined by people whispering amongst themselves.


Is the shotgun mic supplied with the pd170 good enough for what I hope to do? Would upgrading to a Rode 250 dollar mic do me any good?

Thanks ya'll.

Tom Bolia July 3rd, 2006 10:34 PM

Ryan, I thought you said you were planning on shooting footage of your friends... not random people. Eh, just search the forums as Mike suggested. I'm not sure about sitting in front of the speakers, since I have no ideas where the speakers will be located.

Ryan Leiderman July 3rd, 2006 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bolia
Ryan, I thought you said you were planning on shooting footage of your friends... not random people. Eh, just search the forums as Mike suggested. I'm not sure about sitting in front of the speakers, since I have no ideas where the speakers will be located.


some friends, some random...

any thought on my need for upgrading the shotgun mic that came with it?

Tom Bolia July 3rd, 2006 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Leiderman
some friends, some random...

any thought on my need for upgrading the shotgun mic that came with it?

I've never been in a club to shoot any footage, but I would imagine it's not too different from shooting footage during church plays we have. If the sound is set up properly (as I presume it would be since stage performances are done constantly), then getting sound from the club's speakers should be no problem with the PD170. Just monitor you audio input visually (via camera display) and by using headphones/earphones. :o)

Ryan Leiderman July 4th, 2006 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bolia
I've never been in a club to shoot any footage, but I would imagine it's not too different from shooting footage during church plays we have. If the sound is set up properly (as I presume it would be since stage performances are done constantly), then getting sound from the club's speakers should be no problem with the PD170. Just monitor you audio input visually (via camera display) and by using headphones/earphones. :o)


thanks tom..I will try it out with the supplied mic and see how it goes.

as I novice, I don't even know how I would monitor the audio input--and for what? I assume you mean to make sure things dont get too loud or soft? is this viewable on the lcd screen I'm guessing? I don't even know how to adjust these levels..

sorry for the novice questions

Tom Hardwick July 4th, 2006 08:11 AM

You mean your PD170 came without an instruction book?

David Ennis July 4th, 2006 11:04 AM

Sooner or later you'll have to sit down with the manual as Tom suggested. But if you want to put it off, try an evening of shooting with both the video and the audio in auto mode and see what you get. Chances are it won't be too bad, and once you know exactly what you want to improve you can just read that part of the manual or ask more specific questions here.

Shooting near a PA speaker will get you better audio (not as thin and echoey) than elsewhere, but chances are that you will eventually want to invest more in audio so you're free to choose other camera positions.

John Harmon July 5th, 2006 08:18 PM

I'm going to be doing exactly this next month. The comedy show is being promoted by a local radio station (WJLB Detroit) and this shoot, using a total of four cameras, is sanctioned by the club and the performers. We're anticipating potential sales in the thousands - got my fingers crossed tight!

Anyhow, I strongly recommend recording a direct feed from the audio board somehow, whether it's to the camera or an external device. There is a headphone jack on your camera; it's on the right side (same side the tape goes in) near the lens assembly, just lift up the rubber cover. You can also push the AUDIO LEVEL button on the back (left of the battery) and get VU meters in your viewfinder. The easiest way to deal with it is to not deal with it - simply go through your menus, find the audio settings, and turn on the AGC (automatic gain control) for both channels. If all you're using is the factory mic, make sure the little switches up front are set to record at mic level across both channels with the +48v phantom power on. Make sure you're getting audio, and you're golden.

Believe it or not, the stage lighting should be just fine for your 170. I've done a few music shows with my 150, and they look great with no extra lighting needed. If you intend to get crowd shots, you may need a light then. Will you be near the stage? That makes a difference, too.

For these rap shows, I've been using "hip" camera angles, leaning it on the monopod, tilting it way back when close to the stage, stuff like that; but I think a comedy show calls for a somewhat more conservative approach. You should simply concentrate on keeping the comedian in the shot. Since we're going to have the luxury of four cameras, I think cam 1 (probably me) should be near the stage following the comedian, cam 2 (which will be a Panasonic DVX100) should be in the middle and used for both medium shots of the stage and crowd shots, stationary cam 3 (a VX1000) should be way in back, and stationary cam 4 (my trusty little Panasonic PV-GS120) should be facing the crowd. Heck, I may dredge up my old JVC again and use it as a secondary crowd cam. Ever since it got knocked off that beer cooler, the audio's working again!

Lamar Lamb July 6th, 2006 12:26 PM

Ryan,
I haven't done comedy clubs but I have done stage shows.

Assuming there is a sound system for the event.....
I use an Audio Technica AT835B on a boom stand. MUCH better than the stock mic. Set that channel to Auto Gain on and that channel's switch to "mic" or for really loud condidtions "mic att". Use the on camera mic as a backup or, if you want, you can pic up a feed from the sound system on the other channel. I find the ambient sound is better than the feed because the audience reaction is so important to get the feeling of being there.
If you get a small sound board you can have more feeds but be carefuell of how you mix them to the two channels you will be recording on. You may not want to use some of the tracks in post but if they are mixed with good stuff you are SOL.

If there is no sound system I'd use a wireless for the performer and the AT835B on a boom directed at the audience.

The PD170 will do fine in the lighting. Forget about auto exposure. The stage lighting is just too much for the auto functions to figure out correctly. You will need to stay in manual and practice stopping up and down a lot before you do the real thing. Use zebra and when in doubt err on the darker side. I've had good luck with autofocus in most stage events as long as there is good lighting and no one passes in front of the camera. Buy a cheap 13 inch tv from Walmart to help see what is happening with focus and exposure. I know it's not the best way to do it but it sure is more practical for low profit event coverage and works better than the LCD screen.

All this kind of locks you down to a stationary camera and with only one that may be a problem. I use two on tripods and sometimes add one handheld.

Hope this helps. Good Luck.

Steve Mann July 6th, 2006 02:08 PM

Wow- did the red flags just go up or what?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Leiderman
Well, it will be somewhat impromptu filming. Some comedians I won't know and will have to ask their permission shortly before show time--not having built up the rapport yet to frisk and fit them with mics. And I figure the less I hassle and ask of the club, the better (in the hopes they won't kick me out).

Do you have the clubs' permission to shoot? That should be the first order of business because without it, they woud very likely throw you out.

Mike Rehmus July 6th, 2006 03:50 PM

With regard to using a shotgun in a comedy club. While it can be done, the shotgun is not the ideal tool. Why? Because it is very easy to overload a shotgun, even a 835B and a shotgun is not directional for lower frequencies. The lower the frequency, the more omni the the response.

I'd select a cardiod (if you need directionality) that's capable of high SPLs. You will get a more 'normal' response (shotguns don't sound as good as other, more optimal types of microphones). If you have a house feed into one channel, then the on-board microphone will pick up the audience response well enough.

Understand that not even a shotgun will do you much good for the performer in any case. Either get a house feed or wire them up (much easier to get a house feed).

Whatever you do, check everything out well before the event. You won't have time to fix, get, or do whatever you may need to do the day of the event.

Exposure. The spots they use on the talent are normally set at one level. So get up on stage with a 18% gray card and set your exposure. Then don't play with it during the event.

Focus. Get back far enought and central enough that you don't have to fool with it during the event. If you are central and back a ways, you can pan the camera without requiring a focus change.

Make it easy on yourself and pre-set everything you can. These cameras don't make changing settings easy during an event and when you do, it is normally very visible.

Lamar Lamb July 6th, 2006 07:12 PM

Mike, I agree with the center camera focus. I do that as well. I think I would have to say be ready to compensate for exposure though. I've never done any "pro" club type work, just local recitals, pageants, plays, etc. Maybe the lighting is more consistent at those places but I've never seen any stage event with consistent enough lighting to just leave the aperture set where it is. That may say something about the lighting equipment or operators. I'd say get familiar with changing it anyway and if you need to you won't be as likely to turn the knob the wrong way......... not that I've ever done that... hehehe :-)

On the microphone thing, what do you recommend? This is more of hobby that pays for itself for me so I tried to get enough to do what I needed without breaking the bank. I only wanted to buy one mic that would work for interviews as well as events and a wireless mic system when I purchased. I got a Sennheiser G2 and the AT835B which seemed to be the best performance / dollar buy when I was looking.

White Balance: This may not be news but I was reading over at Ken Rockwell's site about a new white balance tool called the Expodisc. It's basically a whitish piece of translucent plastic that looks and attaches like a lens filter. Instead of WB from where you have your camera set up you take the camera to where the subject will be, attach the Expodisc aim the camera back in the direction of where your camera will be shooting from and then perform a white balance. Once done remove the Expodisc and set your camera back up where it's supposed to be. The result is a much better white balance. I tried the same method shooting the WB through a piece of milk jug I cut out (the translucent white kind) and through a thin white piece of copier paper. I worked much better than WB by just aiming at grey or white from where you are shooting. The results look much more natural.

Disclaimer: I did this with my D200. I haven't done it with my video cameras yet but I would expect similar results.

Mike Rehmus July 6th, 2006 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lamar Lamb
Mike, I agree with the center camera focus. I do that as well. I think I would have to say be ready to compensate for exposure though. I've never done any "pro" club type work, just local recitals, pageants, plays, etc. Maybe the lighting is more consistent at those places but I've never seen any stage event with consistent enough lighting to just leave the aperture set where it is. That may say something about the lighting equipment or operators. I'd say get familiar with changing it anyway and if you need to you won't be as likely to turn the knob the wrong way......... not that I've ever done that... hehehe :-)

---As you know, the Sony's are the pits when it comes to changing exposure. Every change is apparent as a step-function in the video. I think that pretty much ruins the video. Certainly removes a certain patina of 'Pro' that we all try to deliver. That's why I use a DSR-300 with the all-manual lens setup for these types of events.

BTW, when it comes to proper exposure for people, you have to be very accurate in your metering when it comes to people of color. It is very easy to get it wrong because these cameras are designed by people who don't seem to take that into consideration. I shot a speech by Bubba Paris (retired lineman for the 49r's) a few years ago. Now I knew that he was coming and my partner is black. So we used both of us on-stage before the event to determine the exposure settings for both skin types.

The difficulty isn't so much when lighting is nice and flat but when you get spotlights and persperation, it gets tricky. The difference between a dry caucasian skin and a wet caucasian skin isn't so much. That is not so with darker skin colors. The persperation can really cause a glare and if your exposure isn't right on, you will lose one end or the other of the exposure.

Bubba (he is a very big person and a very nice person) was on-stage and the main lighting was in the orchestra pit and aimed up at him. And it got worse when those lights overloaded the auditorium circuits and they went out. Not only did the lights go out but the house audio system was powered by the same circuit. Good thing a local news crew had clipped a wireless on the podium as a backup and were willing to give me a feed. (Guess who always has an independent podium backup now?)---

On the microphone thing, what do you recommend? This is more of hobby that pays for itself for me so I tried to get enough to do what I needed without breaking the bank. I only wanted to buy one mic that would work for interviews as well as events and a wireless mic system when I purchased. I got a Sennheiser G2 and the AT835B which seemed to be the best performance / dollar buy when I was looking.

---I have the same equipment, Senn wireless and the AT. But since I travel with Police and SWAT teams from time-to-time and also record open-exhaust engines, I found those weren't good choices. I purchased a Shure SM81C which is advertised as a choir and cymbal microphone. It requires phantom power but it is very good sounding and will take incredible SPLs and still deliver reasonable sound. (I'm talking a Barret 50 cal sniper rifle shot or a MP5 on full auto). And it delivers very nice music and speech too. Only my studio microphone sounds better than the Shure. I use it in weddings too. ---

White Balance: This may not be news but I was reading over at Ken Rockwell's site about a new white balance tool called the Expodisc. It's basically a whitish piece of translucent plastic that looks and attaches like a lens filter. Instead of WB from where you have your camera set up you take the camera to where the subject will be, attach the Expodisc aim the camera back in the direction of where your camera will be shooting from and then perform a white balance. Once done remove the Expodisc and set your camera back up where it's supposed to be. The result is a much better white balance. I tried the same method shooting the WB through a piece of milk jug I cut out (the translucent white kind) and through a thin white piece of copier paper. I worked much better than WB by just aiming at grey or white from where you are shooting. The results look much more natural.

---Use the gray card up on stage to set both exposure and white balance. That way, if they bring up colored lights as an effect, you record it correctly.

The expo disk (not a new idea at all) is like using a reflected light meter, it averages the scene. One does not want that in a spotlit environment. You have to go for the most important element on stage and that is almost always the talent. The talent tends to be lit differently than the scenery or even the supporting players. ---
--

Disclaimer: I did this with my D200. I haven't done it with my video cameras yet but I would expect similar results.

I have to place some padding text down here as this bulleting board software doesnt' recognize that I wrote my reply inside the Quote marks..

Ryan Leiderman July 7th, 2006 01:52 AM

just got back from shooting at the comedy club tonight

luckily, the auto settings worked really well with the comic I was going there to shoot

but on another comic that asked me to get footage for him: his face was overexposed in much of the shoot...those zebras don't lie. it's kind of tough to get all the settings right when a new person pops on stage and you haven't had time to try white balancing and aperature opening/closing...and like the last poster said, it is very noticable to see that kind of stuff going on mid shot.

David Ennis July 7th, 2006 02:15 AM

I shoot a lot of three camera stage production footage with a Canon GL2, a Sony VX2100 (same basic cam as the PD170) and Panasonic GS200.

I always use "Spotlight" autoexposure mode and the "Indoor' white balance preset on all three cameras. The color and exposure differences between the cams under the varying color lights and varying brightness of stage lighting used to drive me crazy in post. Problem solved. The cameras agree on color and exposure with minimal correction Try it. You'll like it.

The Spotlight mode works even if there is no actual spotlight--it merely adjusts exposure for the central portion of the frame. The "Indoor" white balance preset is good with a wide range of incandescent lighting, including spotlghts.

Mike Rehmus July 7th, 2006 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Leiderman
just got back from shooting at the comedy club tonight

luckily, the auto settings worked really well with the comic I was going there to shoot

but on another comic that asked me to get footage for him: his face was overexposed in much of the shoot...those zebras don't lie. it's kind of tough to get all the settings right when a new person pops on stage and you haven't had time to try white balancing and aperature opening/closing...and like the last poster said, it is very noticable to see that kind of stuff going on mid shot.

White balance won't have changed from person to person. In those situations, the light source is normally constant and the color temp remains the same. Your results with the second person suggest that their clothing was substantially darker, causing the auto circuit to open the aperature and/or increase the gain.

Being able to change camera settings quickly and accurately is a matter of practice. Once you've done this type of shooting a few times, you will be able to change settings as smoothly as possible with the Sony.

Ezra Hiller July 7th, 2006 02:36 PM

I've taped a similar event using my fairly new VX2100. As this camera only has a mini 1/8" input, I was forced into using either the on-camera mic or input an external. I chose the on-camera mic. The On camera mic was pointing directly at a speaker, but apparently the mic is not directional and echo's and room noise could be heard. During the performance, I could not make the live switch to the external without it being way to obvious.

My plan for the next shoot is to purchase a small mixer (i.e. Azden FMX-32) that will allow me mix the best sound sources live. This way I can adjust my audio and select my mic's as the situations change.

Live and Learn.

Asa side note, I had a different white balance frustration. There was daylight filtering onto the stage. I white balanced, but as the show went on and the sun went down, the white balance was shifting. Again, during the show, I could not re-white balance. As it turns out, it wasn't that radical a change, but boy was it frustrating.

Ezra

Lamar Lamb July 7th, 2006 05:12 PM

That sun going down-white balance thing has happend to me as well. I have keyframed the color balance in Vegas on long wedding media to compensate. Your editing software should have something similar. As a matter of fact I have an outdoor wedding I'm editing now. Everytime a cloud gets in front of the sun............. I wonder if auto WB would have been better.

Mike Rehmus July 10th, 2006 07:48 PM

Unless the wedding is at night, there always seems to be a mix of color temps to handle. My worst was a stage lit by incandescent with a 2 story atrium at the back of the stage. I used the incandescent preset and let everything else go blue. Ya can't win and I tell the bride up front that there will be background color problems but the wedding party faces will look OK

Wait till you get a bride that's wearing a white dress with whitners in the finish. In sunlight or in strobe light, it will turn blue on you. You DON'T want auto white balance to be on in that situation or their faces will do some interesting color shifts.

Tom Hardwick July 11th, 2006 12:50 AM

You raise a good point Mike. Many modern white pieces of clothing have these artificial whiteners added, and they should certainly not be used to white balance your camera. How to tell with the naked eye which are safe whites to balance off? You can't. Out with the square of photographer's grey card once again.

tom.


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