Affordable solid-state recording?
 

This makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside:

http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/I...=TS32GSSD34E-M

Two of these bad boys should provide 160 minutes of full quality 35Mb/s footage from the EX - and for roughly the same price as one 16Gb P2 card (which only provides 16 minutes of 1080 footage). Granted you're recording in a lesser codec than DVCPro HD, but if the quality is still 'up there' with that of the HVX the EX should offer some considerable flexibility.

I have seen these in stores already.

Even though they use the same interface and are the same shape and size we do not yet know if they will work with the EX. These cards are SSD while the EX cards are S x S. There could be tiny things different that could cause this to not work in the EX camera. I really hope though that they will work because the cost isn't that bad at all. Plus if you need one in a pinch you can stop at a computer or office store to pick one up.

I guess we will only know if they will work once the EX comes out and somebody tries it or SONY tells us if it will work.

ExpressCards can use either USB 2.0 or PCI Express interface. Sony's SxS format uses PCIe. It looks like these cards use a USB interface (since they include a USB adapter). I would guess that this would make SxS slightly more expensive than similar ExpressCards that use USB... but we will see.

Tom

I had the impression that the SxS cards were just Sony and Sandisks expresscard offering (with higher transfer speeds than regular expresscards) but that any regular SSD card would work. Hence the big deal Sony's making about it not being a proprietary format. Did I miss something here?

No you didn't miss something here, but everybody here knowing Sony as I do, it's best to be on the side of caution when talking nonproprietary and Sony. It may work, but then, again, it may not. Like others, I'm taking the wait and see position. We should here more about this in about a month.

But SxS and the EX aside, is it these cards that inherently use a USB interface, or is the implication not just that they are bundled with a USB adaptor? (Hence they would work if plugged directly into a laptop with it's own ExpressCard slot?)

My suspicion is that whilst SxS cards need the PCI Express interface to take advantage of the full bandwidth potential of the cards, these cheaper (and slower) cards don't. Of course, this still implies the cards will work with the EX - just that max download won't be potentially as fast as with full spec SxS. For many users that won't matter, the cost saving will be more important than the absolute performance. (And download will still be many times real time.) We'll see.

I havn't researched Express Cards much but from my understanding, the interface is just a PCI Express interface in a card form factor. PCI Express has no USB interface component so my thought was the USB adaptor with this card is just a USB ExpressCard reader, just like you can get USB Compact Flash card readers etc.

It's worth going back to the original link and clicking on the link to "Datasheet", where page 3 gives pinouts for the cards. It appears that the card spec has pins for BOTH PCI Express AND USB interfaces, together with pins to detect which it is plugged into. Hence it should be fine either plugged straight into an ExpressCard slot or a USB port via the adaptor.

Of more concern may be speed, which the datasheet doesn't give any information about at all.

Also interesting are the alternative sizes ( http://ec.transcendusa.com/product/p...ory.asp?Cid=98 ) - 8GB for $153, anybody? That's about 22 minutes of XDCAM-HD - enough for many interviews, say - at a price which is cheap enough to not have to worry about immediate downloading in the field. Four 8GB cards for about $600 may be more useful in some situations than one 32GB for about $500.

Good points. The confusion that we are all dealing with comes from the fact that ExpressCard modules come in 3 flavors (USB, PCIe or both).

The ExpressCard website states ...
"ExpressCard-compliant host platforms must support both the PCI Express and USB interfaces. ... An ExpressCard module may use one or both of the standard interfaces depending on the application requirements."

Page 2 of the datasheet for this card says...
High-speed USB 2.0 specification
Fully compatible with ExpressCard™ standards and Operating Systems (OS) that support the USB standard

While it seems unlikely that a flash memory card like this would have both USB and PCIe interfaces implemented, the product page on Transcend's web site seems to indicate that it does... "Transcend’s ExpressCard/34 SSD is a smaller and faster plug-in module solution that supports USB 2.0 and PCI Express Applications"
http://www.transcendusa.com/Press/in...690&axn=Detail

Of course, Sony has called the flash memory for XDCAM EX "SxS", and they are indicating that only "SxS" memory is compatible. They may have done this because their ExpressCard host (the XDCAM EX camcorder) doesn't support both USB and PCIe - as the specification requires. So if you buy SxS memory you don't have to worry... it will work. But Sony is using the PCIe version of the ExpressCard standard, so PCIe capable ExpressCard memory modules should work also.

Tom

I find it very likely. (And the data sheet does indeed seem to comfirm it.) My suspicion would be that such a memory chip is most likely to at least have PCIe, since surely the main reason for buying such a chip (and not CF, SD or whatever) is for prime use being in a laptop ExpressCard slot. To then add the USB functionality I would then think would add next to nothing to overall manufacturing cost, whilst increasing versatility.
I don't think I've ever heard them categorically say that "only "SxS" memory is compatible", (please correct me if that's wrong) though obviously SxS is guaranteed - not just to work at all, but to meet certain performance guarantees, such as download speeds. These speeds may be important for top end users, the future, and still to be announced product, but I suspect that for many on this board cheaper cards may for now be more desirable than absolute performance.

It may be a subtle difference, but I read the press release about SxS as preceding the one about the EX. In other words, they are defining a format specification for future use first and foremost, then announcing the first product that will use it. Hopefully more will be known after IBC.

Physically the cards are the same. They are the same shape and size.

One way use the USB2 only path for sending data but that just means it will be slower.

Sort of like putting a USB2 device in a USB1 port. The device still reads the same but it runs much slower.

I "Think and hope" this will be the same case. The SSD cards will physically pop into the slots in the EX camera. The cards if using only a USB2 style bandwidth still have more then enough speed for XDCAMHD video. 35mbits over a 480mbit pipe will have no problem at all.

What it comes down to is the interface software and camera OS for the camera itself. SONY could design it to say sorry only S x S cards please. It's kind of like on the Panasonic HVX200 where a P2 card works to record data to but if you hook up a hard drive via the USB2 port you can only copy video to it from a P2 card and not capture directly to the hard drive. The camera OS just cannot work with any other storage medium other then the cards that fit the full specs. Hopefully since XDCAMHD has a much lower bandwidth need then DVCPROHD that SONY would have relaxed the specs a little bit so other forms of media could be used with the camera.

This is why we will have to wait and see what happens. In this digital age we just cannot assume one device that may look the same will work as another device.

Yes, agreed. But it is not only Sony - the SxS announcement is a joint one between Sony and Sandisk, and a lot depends on that arrangement. Obviously Sony will stress the link between their hardware and Sandisk memory (SxS) for practical (it's guaranteed to work, and at a given speed) as well as commercial reasons, but will they design exclusivity in?

If they do, the real winner would be Sandisk more than Sony themselves - being able to use cheaper, third party memory could only enhance the appeal of product such as the EX. As you say, we have to wait and see.

As regards speed, I think the underlying memory speed is likely to be far more significant than the USB/PCIe issue. We're all used to differences with CF, SD etc and Sandisk themselves have a variety of ranges at differing prices. Currently they seem to max out at around 40MBs (320Mbs) for the most expensive ranges, so still well within the USB spec. (And theoretically able to provide 9x download speed!) Will Sandisk themselves produce non-SxS (slower) ExpressCard memory? As laptops move from Cardbus to ExpressCard, the market here may be for much more than video usage.

I did send an email to SanDisk last week asking if they had a release date for their SxS cards, but the customer support here in Australia didn't have a clue what I was talking about, and I haven't had a response from their OEM department they told me to forward my request to.

(I asked them if they were planning on having their S X S cards released by the time the Sony XDCam EX cameras were released, and an est. price, so that we could plan accordingly)

Cheers,

Vaughan

At the recent DVExpo East, Sony gave a presentation primarily about the Sony XDCAM EX. They said compatible 16GB cards are selling for about $200 now and pointed to some prices on the web as specific example. Sony (and Sandisk I assume) implied that they will be offering a card with faster transfer times at a more expensive price. This based on my understanding of Sony's presentation and the Q&A that followed.

Well now that sounds like a SSD card and that they will work. According to what you heard it sounds like the only real advantage of a S x S card will be that it will transfer much faster so you can quickly pop the card back into an empty slot on the camera.

This of course is assuming these guys know the truth or if they are also just thinking the SSD cards are the same thing like we all are. It wouldn't be the first time a tradeshow rep got their facts wrong.

Vaughan, I'm not really surprised about local customer support not having a clue about SxS etc They are likely just kids out of school getting $10/hr there to help people put Flash cards in the cameras and computers etc...

For some time I imagine that the best option for SxS cards will be importing them from the US. Maybe online Flash shops like powerinnumbers.com.au will eventually carry such stuff at good price. First up the other option will be vendors like VideoCraft etc but I still think gray imports will be cheaper initially.

I'll mention that it was a Sony rep using a powerpoint presentation which I assume was approved by Sony. There were many questions which he refused to answer but this was one he was pretty decisive about. Of course that's not proof of accuracy but I got the impression that his presentation had be vetted by Sony and he stuck very tightly to a company line.

None of this can be 100% certain until the product actually ships, of course. But it would all make sense. The SxS and EX announcements should perhaps best be thought of as two separate (but strongly linked) items - SxS is a spec with a lot of room for growing into and may be targeted with broadcasters and future high end cameras (HDCAM equivalent) far more in mind than the EX and it's average user. It would allow for much higher bitrate recording than XDCAM disc ever will. SxS will obviously work in the EX, but may be unnecessarily high in performance (and cost) most of the time. Why pay more than you need? A bit like buying designer clothes to do the gardening in.

This would be more analogous to the current situation with solid state memory in forms such as Compact Flash. Fast cards are available for demanding applications, cheap ones for run of the mill uses.

It will also be very interesting to see what other manufacturers (JVC and Canon being the obvious two) come up with in the next year or two. Hopefully not another format! (ExpressCard does have a lot to commend it, as so many laptops now come with the slot as standard.)

IBC is not that far away now.

Perhaps a S x S card is just a raid version of the SSD cards. The P2 cards actually are raided flash cards so they can run fast enough. Perhaps S x S just is a short form name indictaing 1 SSD card + 1 SSD card raided together and stuck inside the same shell for faster bandwidth. It would mean that the SSD cards would work no different then a S x S card. It would be like using an external USB2 drive on your PC or using a external USB2 drive that has two internal drives raided together for faster sustained bandwidth. A Expresscard slot is basically a PCIExpress x1 slot so no single device could ever run fast enough to fill the bandwidth of the slot itself. The only way to really get cards that could use more of that bandwidth would be to use some type of raided device.

Thomas, I've learned over the years that where technology is concerned, never say never. The example I always like to quote is my internet connection. I'm pushing 6mb on a regular two wire copper phone line. In the early 1980's when 300 baud modems were the rage, they told us we'd never (there's that word again) go faster than 1200 baud on a standard phone line.

So don't cross that single device off your list just yet. (grin)

-gb-

I can guarantee you it had to be approved by Sony. For my NAB class, I had to use Sony's slide templates and submit the whole thing for approval beforehand.

The many questions he refused to answer are corporate policy. Japan hasn't given the okay for everyone to spill all the beans as yet.

-gb-

I hope the SxS cards aren't RAIDed because that would likely keep the cost high, as has been an issue with P2. And it's not technically necessary to use that approach these days when high-end standard flash cards offer almost ten times the bandwidth required for XDCAM HD recording. The main benefit of having a faster solution would be so you can transfer your footage to a computer quickly, but again we don't really need fancy memory cards for that. I'm surprised video camera manufacturers don't just adopt CompactFlash for cost-effectiveness, but then they couldn't make money selling us memory cards for several times the price. :-(

And that's why I believe the presenter when he talked about cards currently on the market for about $200 that can be used in the EX. He was clear that Sony would have cards with faster xfer times (he would NOT mention how much faster for example) but the $200 would certainly work.

BTW this alludes to another key issue.

It seems clear that, unlike P2 cards, one will be able to buy a cheap (slow xfer) card that one can hand to the client after a shoot (tacking on the reasonable cost of such card to the price of the shoot). The client would be able to use the card in a modern laptop without the need for any special decks (or the equivalent like an XDCAM disk player).

But thats where the SSD cards come in. If you don't want the fast transfer speeds you can use the cheaper SSD cards. Also like somebody pointed out the S x S cards may be designed for more then just XDCAMHD in mind. Perhaps SONY wanted there to be a universay card that could support HDCAM or some new form of it in the future. That way the same media cards could be used on any type of format. For XDCAMHD and XDCAMHD50 the SSD cards would be more then enough.

Very true. As of today however I would tend to think you would get a lot more bandwidth from a raided card. Even as SSD cards get faster a two card raid will be even faster yet. At some point I'm sure a single device will reach the speed of PCIEx1 but a two card raid-0 will get there much faster not to mention today it would give the bandwidth needed for even HDCAM and maybe HDCAMSR.

Good point about having a choice between SSD and SxS - and I see Transcend is already shipping a 32 GB SSD card for about $500.

As far as RAIDed versus non-RAIDed memory is concerned, why not just use two slots and put the RAID controls inside the card reader? Ah well, that's up to the manufacturers to decide...

I can go into the Office Max a block from my place and buy a 4 GB SSD card right now. The things are very small. Smaller then a miniDV tape I would say. Although the 4 GB card wouldn't hold a whoe lot of video it is only a little bit more then $100.00 at the store. Buy it online and it should be even cheaper. My whole point is that is you only ever shoot quick short shots a 4 GB card may be all you need for now and it wouldn't really add that much more to the cost of the camera. The card should fit about 15 minutes worth of video which is pretty good for indie productions.

and:
Yes, exactly. And that was one thing on my mind when I wrote post #8 referring and linking not to speed but the availability of different size cards. "(........8GB for $153, anybody? That's about 22 minutes of XDCAM-HD - enough for many interviews, say - at a price which is cheap enough to not have to worry about immediate downloading in the field. Four 8GB cards for about $600 may be more useful in some situations than one 32GB for about $500.)

Whilst even $153 may still be too much to write off or make an extra charge for, it is certainly low enough that you may be able to give away the card for a few days, say. And also low enough for many clients to fork out for enough cards to issue to cameramen as required.

Large, fast expensive cards may suit some scenarios - smaller, slower, cheaper ones may be more appropiate for others. ExpressCard cameras may give you the choice.

Well Kevin, your statement doesn't hold much water with respect to XDCAM HD EX. Sony stated right of the bat that there would be other vendors making the SxS cards and it would be fine to use those instead of theirs. Of course they'll have their own, but you will have a choice, just as you do with XDCAM discs. At least 4 or 5 manufacturers of XDCAM discs out there at the moment.

Let's not forget the fact that using a camera in a professional situation means [ij]it has to work.[/i] That being said, I wouldn't necessarily trust just any storage solution out there. I've already lost some JPGs to a corrupted SD card. So I know from personal experience it can happen.

-gb-

Very true. But surely NOTHING can ever be truly 100% reliable, even when life may depend on it? (Though you may then hope it gets very close to it! :-) ) At some point small reliability improvements just don't justify large extra cost.

That said, I suspect even cheap memory may be more reliable than other parts of the system, such as batteries. I've also had occasional problems with brand new, high quality tapes in the past and I'd expect even lower spec solid state cards to be more reliable than tape.

That's good then, but it probably won't be as cost-effective as using memory card formats which are produced in larger volumes. I suppose having a more specialized format which is designed to high standards makes sense up to a point, but I don't see professional photographers worrying about this much - other than to buy good brand-name memory cards. Here's hoping the XDCAM EX will be sufficiently flexible as far as what memory it will accept.

As far as reliability is concerned, nothing's perfect -- so it will be interesting to see if the EX can record simultaneously to both flash memory and something like a Firestore drive. I'd rather pay separately for redundant recording than pay large amounts for a slightly more reliable memory card.

Just another thought.

It may be possible to write to both cards at the same time?

No-one's thought of that. Two copies at the same time?

Cheers Vaughan

Quote Just another thought.

It may be possible to write to both cards at the same time?

No-one's thought of that. Two copies at the same time?

Cheers Vaughan[/QUOTE]



Yes I did mention this proposal in another thread:

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=99817

I film loads of high end weddings and reliability and error-free media is of utmost importance. Hence I had suggested the possibility of writing simultenously on two cards...much like a RAID 1 scenario.

Brian