Piotr,what picture profile are you getting most satisfied with,i'm using bill ravens but i presume you've strayed a bit from that now.
Are you trying to get a profile which you can use all the time or different profiles for different situations,ie,profile for overcast day,profile for sunny day etc.
If you could post your profile(s) that'd be great.
Thanks,Paul.

Paul, I am still experimenting to find my optimum PPs. When I'm ready, I'll post them.

No, I'm not using Bill's right now; all my colour matrix coefficients (pairs) are zeros (default). Perhaps I will fine-tune them later, when I settle down with the choice of matrices and gammas. Finally, I'll play with detail etc.

Yes, I always have a set of PPs for the most typical sceneries; here is the convention I've been using with cameras capable of fast switching between 6 PP's:

PP1: low-light indoors contrasty (STD1)
PP2: low-light indoors flat (STD4)
PP3: bright outdoors flat (Cine1)
PP4: bright outdoors contrasty/backlit (Cine4)
PP5: dull/low-light outdoors flat (TBD)
PP6: dull/low-light outdoors contrasty/backlit (TBD)

Thanks Piotr.
No Hisat on any of them,correct ?

Paul.

Actually Paul, as I mentioned earlier, the grabs posted today are ALL Hisat-based (plain at +25, with no individual pairs modification).

Whether or not my finall PPs will be Hisat I don't know yet - will try the Cine matrix over the weekedn (if the weather is like today :)

Thanks Piotr.

I have shifted the STD1 knee 95 slightly towards red in Vegas, to get rid of the bluish tint in shadows. It's better now, I think.

The conclusion is: each preset needs its individual colour balancing!

Hi Piotr,
A little off topic but...
How close can you get your V1 to match up with the EX1 as a B cam ?
Aloha,
Wayne

Unfortunately, I sold my V1E - one of the silly things I've done lately :) So, no B camera!

But of course I do have plenty of HDV stuff, shot with it - and it actually intercuts quite well, especially with the SP mode material from the EX1.

But even in SP mode, the EX1 codec is cleaner - especially in low-light and with fine detail. To me, the difference is quite obvious; colours you can grade to match, but the increased mosquito noise in the V1E can be noticed.

That said, to the casual viewer the combined renders look great.

Don't know if you've been through this article, but have a look there : http://prolost.blogspot.com/2008/02/...mic-range.html

Whoa! Stick that under my pillow and hope it makes more sense in the morning. Very interesting though.

Mandatory reading. The reply (way down the page) from Jason Rodriquez explains the issue very well. Keep in mind that the discussion relates to cameras recording 10bitLog and beyond. Even then they don't come close to 35mm neg.
My thanks to Sebastian for posting the link. What a breath of fresh air in this thread to read something by people who do the hard yards required to understand what they are working with. And my hat goes off to Stu for his work modelling the issue in AE.

I just had to comment on this. Did you read what Piotr said regarding the blue-clipping? He said Adam Wilt confirmed what I said! That made my day.

Irrelevant.....Red is RAW, the EX1 is not.

Thanks Sebastien for the link - great reading!

This article reinforces a lot of my observations as spoke of in the "under-exposing" post. Even with the EX1 roll-off curves more highlight detail is obtained with about a stop underexposure with the middle brought up in post. This article is very relevant as long as you realise the difference in the Panalog and Red curves vis a vie the EX1's hyper gammas.

As I see it, this hasn't been the unambiguous conclusion at all. Jason Rodriguez, whom Bob is referring to, says in his comment to the article:

"Hi Elliot, you're right, you want to expose "to the right" to maximize signal to noise ratio".

Your "under-exposing" theory is good for getting more headroom for highlits, but brings in the danger of getting too close to the "noise floor".

So frankly, no definite conclusion from this article to me...

Actually, the article says 1.25 stops down will give the headroom with little noise. Anyway, to is Sunday, another test day and now Cineform NEO-HD is fixed for me I'll be testing this along with my HiStat test to day. I'm also ASKING here. To exposure at this level where should the Zebras be? IE how many Zebra percents is one and a half stops? Is this Doug Jensen's 95?

Mike...

Keep an eye on your shadows. I think you'll see some pretty bad noise, even at 1 stop under. As I've been saying all along, expose to the right.

It's my opinion that the zebra should still be at 100% (as this is the only setting possible with Zebra 2; Zebra 1 is adjustable, but will span a +/- range thus cluttering your view).

Very good point Piort. I knew this and totally forgot the problem of the Zebra #1 95 being 90-100. I'm mystyfied how a cut-off point (as a Zebra setting is) can have a range?

Maybe, if you set Zebra #1 to 100, then when zebras FIRST appear you are at 95?????????

Actually, it will appear everywhere between 85 and 105%, Mike.

It will then appear between 90 and 110%.

None very useful for highlight clipping control. Very good for your main subject (e.g. human skin) controlled exposure.

I think I should add that I find the solution of Zebra1/Zebra2/histogram very useful and properly thought-through by Sony.

- zebra 1 for controlling your main subject exposure (e.g. face skin at around 70%), and only activated when needed (to avoid cluttering of the VF)

- zebra 2 fixed at 100% and always on, to control and prevent clipping when possible

- histogram: this is a bit more complicated, but also works properly. For example, with Cine2 it will never go to the very RH end (zebra 2 is never triggered within the resonable overal exposure of your scene). So, how can one control the highlights exposure? Well, just try this: overexposure by 2-3 stops and - even though the Zebra 2 is still absent - you will notice a vertical bar at the RH end of the displayed histogram range (NOT at 100% - a bit to the left of it). This is because Cine2 will compress highlights enough to never exceed 100% - now turn the exposure down, and you will see this vertical bar going down... Try to make its hight more balanced with the rest of your histogram, and you'll be fine.

With the STD1 being the opposite extreme, the vertical bar can appear at the most RH end of the histogram scale, which of course is confirmed by the Zebra 2: you're clipping at over 100%.

Thanks Piotr: I have been taking that vertical line right down to zero when using the histogram. I'll try your way.

There's certainly no reason to take it down to zero, Mike - it represents pixels with completely legitimate exposure (brighness) value! Of course, I'm talking now about the cine gammas, which generally prevent from clipping above 100% - compressing everything gracefully much "to the left" of 100% (especially the Cine2 gamma).

Reading about the ongoing problems that so many users have with their camera's vignetting and/or backfocus, I'm thinking the "abrupt highlights clipping" can indeed be treated as a "peculiarity" rather than a flaw...

On the other hand, while the vignetting (or even backfocus, as it seems to depend on the ND filter use) might be difficult to fix (the worst scenario being they're inherent in the design's tight tolerances, and/or ND filter implementation) - the knee/hightlight compression algorithm is a purely software issue, so I'll appreciate input from people like Adam Wilt or Leonard Levy or Tom Roper, who appreciate this problem - it would help greatly in articulating our wishes for some future firmware update in this regard.

Really only Cine 2 will limit to 100%. On 1, 3 and 4, the curves will deal with the rolling of the whites nicely under 100%, but rescuing whites above 100 can be more work. I think Michael was on the right track. Find Zebra 100, and back off till none. Then use the black level that best pulls the histogram (or waveform) to your floor.

This is what I am considering pushing right "with safety" on this camera.

Exactly what I've been saying (and doing), Randy.

holy mother of God! I've said that since day 1!
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...=110902&page=9 see post no. 128
Welcome to the club.

But so have I, Bill - like here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=174

"- if in manual iris mode, with zebra set to 100%, never allow ANY zebra in the sky (some traces only allowed in pure white areas, like birch barks; the sky - even cloudy - is NEVER pure white so NO zebra there!)"

Me too....

..................................................

JUST SO THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CONFUSSION do you mean "black level" and not "black gamma"? If you DO mean "black level" what do you do, if anything, with "black gamma"? Is that just for the internal strech - ie detail vs noise?

"Black" shifts the middle (gray) level of the gamma curve, while "Black gamma" is responsible for what on many prosumer cameras is called Black Stretch/Compress.

My experience from the much less light-sensitive (and hence noise-prone) V1 us that if noise is potentially a problem, you'll be better off crushing the blacks to get rid of it (along with details in dark areas, but I personally prefer such picture than a stretched one, with lots of detail and chroma noise).

Piotr: I know quite well what Black Level and Black Gamma are I was asking Randy wht settings he used.

Oh, sorry - was reading too fast :)

There are a lot of settings, and as always I claim no expertise. That said, my understanding is different than Piotr's.

I think visually, so in terms of curves:

Black level, (called just "Black" in PP) is your master black and sets only the black point. Middle Gray is shifted by "Gamma". "Black Gamma" Would be like setting a point on the lower region of the curve and adjusting from there.

I have been leaving the Gamma and Black Gamma settings alone, but I am sure I will start to meddle with those too.

That's an incredible degree of control. Are the Black Level, Gamma and Black Gamma settings continuously variable, like 0-255, or are they stepped levels like low, med, high?

You have been leaving the Gamma and Black Gamma alone???? You just said four posts back "I drop the black gamma until the histogram bottoms out" or word to this effect.

Either you or me is very confused - or maybe we can blame it on Bill?

Hi Michael,

Yes, I have been leaving Black Gamma and Gamma untouched, although I have not played with them yet. I was refering only to the Black level which in PP terminology is called simply "Black".

Did you mean where I said, "Then use the black level that best pulls the histogram (or waveform) to your floor. ?

I don't think I said that I adjust the other two, but if I did, ignore it :)

Black level (or black point-same thing) is different from black gamma.

The 3 settings that you mentioned are -99 to +99 with every step available along the way. Other settings (and there are many) have different scales. Download the manual if you have a chance and perouse the PP section.

Have coffee ready. :)

Hmm... Sounds convincing, have to re-check. So are you saying that Black is what is often called Master pedestal?