ex1 disaster scenario, any options?
 

okay im a wedding videographer. if i go with the ex1, i will have to rely on backing up to my macbook pro through out the day cause i shoot 3-4 hours of footage normally. because they're so expensive, i would only have a 16gig and 2 8 gig cards. i would backup to my MBP, an external HD, and burn dual layer dvd's through out the day for triple back up. what if my macbook pro dies on the job. is there anyway the ex1 can dump footage/data to an external unit (drive, burner, ipod, etc) without using a computer, or is my only piece of mind :

buy more cards or have a backup computer?

I'd love a way to backup straight to a hard drive but insofar as I know that's yet not possible. Would love to find out otherwise.

On the subject, while the thought of loosing data gives me the willies, it almost seems to me that now that were going tapeless we've gotten a bit paranoid. I never had the luxury of backing up a tape on location but yet I never freaked out about it even though it would be quite easy to tape over something, loose a tape, or have any number of gut wrenching things go wrong with it. I know I've had my share of problems with tape over the years including something as simple as forgetting to clean my heads, ack, was pretty much useless footage.

Anyway, obviously adequate caution should be taken and I'm not arguing that it shouldn't. I would probably be a bit more concerned if just about every instance of data loss I've heard about thus far wansn't human error, not that I'm not susceptible, but at least it's within our control. While I don't doubt a mechanical problem will cause some data loss for someone somewhere sometime sooner or later, this so far seems to be rare if (it's happened at all). My point being that recording to tape was never perfect either.

Okay, done with my little unrequested and most likely not all that insightful psycho babel on the subject, just something I've thought for a while now and finally caved into wasting some time to post about. =)

- Ray

HI Adam I am also a wedding videographer and use an EX1.

I have 2 16Gb cards and just aquired 2 8 Gb cards (very cheaply)

My aim is by the start of April ( my first wedding of the year) to have enough cards for 5 hours of footage. I now need another 2 16gb cards and am waiting in the hope to see a price drop. If there is no drop I am going the laptop route.

Make sure the laptop is charged, take the mains adapter with you in case of problems. When you get a second dump your first card onto the laptop. Check to make sure all the footage is there and you are happy. Delete clips off the cards ( don't format the cards as it affects numbering sequences) and start again.

As long as you have viewed the clips on the laptop and are happy they are there, I wouldn't worry about burning to dvd at that moment. You should be busy shooting rather than worrying if a disk has burnt OK.

5 16Gb cards will be ample for a normal wedding shoot.

Excellent point, Raymond!

Let's hope for two things to happen soon enough:

- SxS card's price going down, enabling us to have more of them
- straight SxS backup without a computer to e.g. the Professional Disk becomes available.

We'll be fine there, and really start enjoying the benefits of going tapeless!

How about a few 16GB USB memory sticks (or even 32GB) which can be USB powered and can hold a duplicate copy of the data until you get a chance to do a permanent backup.

I got a Maxtor USB Hard drive. One of the tiny ones that is powered off of USB. It was 120 GB and cost 80 bucks. When I am out shooting my MBP has about 90 GB free space so I offload to that and then dump to the Maxtor. So really quickly I have 2 copies. It is a luxury over the tape based systems to have quick backups, but it is a piece of mind saver. Yes, if the MacBook goes poop, then I am s#it out of luck. I carry a disc with the XDCAM and clip browser software with me, because a lot of the producers I work with have MBPs so in a pinch I could offload to there machine, but that is definitely more of a disaster scenario.

[QUOTE=Steve Shovlar;834787]HI Adam I am also a wedding videographer and use an EX1.

I


Steve,if you're ever up Bristol way and need a 2nd cam/operator,then give me a shout,i'm looking for some experience.
Thanks,Paul.

Quite honestly,although I just bought an EX1 and it's a great camera, I think it's the completely wrong camera for weddings. I'm loving the camera and it's fantastic. It does have it's limitations and flaws just like any piece of gear though. But for weddings I think a JVC HD110 is a much better option. I also have one of them and it's much better suited for weddings and that type of event. First, it's a shoulder mount. It balances very well and it's very easy to handheld. The EX1 is a nightmare to handheld unless you invest more money on some sort of shoulder brace but even though I prefer having my eye in the viewfinder like with the HD110. The HD110 also looks more professional, which sometimes matters in this business. Second, the longest lasting battery for the EX1 is 3-4 hours (according to Sony). With the HD110 you can snap an V-mount or AB and power it for some 8 hours consecutively. Third thing is the EX1 is sharp, but 720p is much more pleasing on faces. It will sure make brides happier. I know you can filter the EX1 down but then why bother shooting 1080p? Then the HD110 shoots to tape which is much more practical for weddings, unless you are going to be buying a half dozen SxS cards ($$$$). Tape is also better or easier to archive and sometimes wedding customers come back for old footage. Some even like to get the raw footage.
One more thing is the CMOS limitations. Not only handhelding, which is not as bad as some think. But most wedding parties have strobe lights for example. Also, sometimes photographers shot flashes in your frame and you can't do anything about it. Not a good thing for CMOS as we all know. All together I just think the EX1 is just not the best for weddings. It shines in many other areas but weddings is not one of them. You can also get some very sweet deals on HD110 kits out there including the IDX or AB kits for less than an EX1 alone. You buy the EX1 you also need to buy the bigger batteries which cost $240 a pop and you will need at least 2 or 3 of them. Then you need to buy a shoulder brace etc. Food for thought. I'm all for choosing the right tool for the right job.

Hmmm...
Throw your image up un a 1080P monitor and compare.
I see a good difference between 1080P and 720P.

As a JVC owner myself, I must admit the HD100/110 cameras do produce some nice stuff. It was not until I dropped the EX1 and the JVC footage on the same timeline and viewed it on a 1080 monitor that the rez difference was so large.

Maybe i'm spoiled, but now 720 looks blocky compared to the 1080P stuff. It's like going from 480 SD to 720 HD.

Also, if your looking for silky smooth detailed images from the EX1, just turn off Detail. It still holds the detail without the harsh sharpening artifacts.

A lot of other cameras look very soft without artificial enhancement. I was very happy to see the EX1 looks great with it off.

Sorry Michael I completely disagree with you here.

For starters the low light capability of the EX1 is worth its weight in gold for wedding videographers.

I live in the UK and 80% of my weddings are in 15th century churches with low light. The EX1 sings, and compared to my old HVX, which was next to useless, and before that a Sony FX1, this cam is perfect.

I don't use the viewfinder, because the LCD is far superior. Peaking on and I am set.

Handheld? No problem! Don't hold it high handheld. I also now own a should brace, which will be used, but more often than not when I am not on a tripod I will be using the Manfrotto 561B monopod, so no strain there!

Tape for archive? Let me tell you something about wedding videos. In the years I have been filming them, I have yet to have a single bride come back to me and ask for more copies. They do it themselves, or they order a load when they pay for it. Archiving weddings is a waste of space and the best bits are saved for my sample DVD and for online samples, and the rest is gone three weeks after they have received their film. I tell them this. If they have anything they don't like, they need to let me knowasap. As yet I have only had praise, so I am doing it right.

Battery worries? I have two of the large BP-U60's and the smaller battery that came with the camera. Easily enough.

I shoot weddings 720P 25, and it looks great. Like a feature film.

And another reason why this camera works so well is its size. Brides and guests don't want to see a great big intimidating pro cam. It scares them and gets them all flustered. The smaller the better, although not too small to look amateur. The EX1 fits the bill perfectly as I can get friends and family talking and leaving messages of goodwill without being scared or tongue tied.

It might be different for wedding videographers in other countries. But for me, and I do hgher end wedding films, it workss a treat.

Steve T, I haven't yet shot a wedding in 1080P. I will give it a try on my first wedding and see how it all looks. Thing is I like to do a bit of slow mo and your can't do it in 1080P compared to 720P. Doing it in cam is far better than in post.

Paul, message me your details. Sometimes I might need a second camera and if the guy I currently use is busy I could give you a call. I don't flm in Bristol but I do cover Taunton/Bridgwater at the north western edge of my area.

Cheers
Steve

i didn't mean 720p looks sharper or "better". Just that brides won't like seeing every pimple on their faces. 720p for being softer is much more pleasing on faces. For DVD 720p is more than enough. Given all the shortcomings from the EX1 in the wedding arena I think the JVC is a better camera for that.

This is really the only advantage it has for weddings. But IMO all the other faults off sets this advantage. I would rather use a camera light.


Well, if you enjoy holding the camera in front of your face while looking at the LCD is up to you. I like having my eye on a viewfinder and the camera on my shoulder. It's the easiest and best way to shot hand held. I can't do that with the EX1.

It is very heavy and wrongly balanced. Very uncomfortable to handheld. This is actually the camera biggest flaw. Even the HVX is easier to handheld. Very bad design in this respect!

As I said this is a possibility. but more expenses and still not as good as a real shoulder camera.

Biggest problem is not archiving but shooting itself. Unless you spend a lot cash on a half dozen SxS cards tape is much more practical for long form and events. No way around that.

Yes, 2-3 batteries will do. but again more expense. A V-mount will power a camera for 6-8 hours. No change needed. No interruption when the bride is just about to throw that bouquet. ;-)

See, you bought a 1080p camera and you shot 720p for weddings. I would save money, buy a 720p camera complete with all the accessories for cheaper than a EX1. Why run around with a 1080p shooting 720p? The right tool for the right job.

Well, that's very debatable. Some people feel more comfortable in paying a lot of cash for a wedding video if the camera doesn't look like their uncles handheld camera. In other words, some people prefer a pro looking camera because in their minds that equals better quality=their money's worth.

Never saw, experienced or even heard of the above. You must work with a very sensitive or "special" client base. :D

Again, very, very debatable :). All those fixed lens handheld cameras look just like them old VHS Sharp cameras. Long, low and with a evf in the end. :D. Seriously, they all look amateur. Just slightly bigger.

Now you only listed the advantages of the EX1 and completely ignored all the weak points it has for weddings. I think this is a very biased view. I have an EX1 and love it. It is a great camera for many other applications but I would never use it for a wedding.

Benjamin - - is there not a way to dump (via the MacBook Pro) directly to the external fw drive? Do you have to dump to the internal MBP drive first?
Malcolm

I hear you...
This is why we all don't drive the same car. We're all entitled to our own likes and dislikes.

Throwing on light on the camera gives you the close lit up look, but for capturing more natural lighting, especially in the church, there's no substitution for sensitivity.

Also, I agree, the EX1 is hard to hold. For that matter, I find all handheld cameras a pain to hold, some are just better than others.

For weddings I would get a shoulder mount, or some sort of steady cam vest for the EX1.

Michael, I see your points. Are you in the USA? Possibly the brides are not as shy and blushing as over here. Sometimes its hard to get a single word out of them!;)

Yes handheld is a bitch on this camera but the monopod gets over that problem instantly, and also gets rid of any camera shake at the same time.

I can't possibly use a camera light or dedos or anyting like that in a church. I would never be allowed. OK in civil ceremonies at a hotel but the vicar would not tolerate it in church. Ambient light only, and if its an overcast day there isn't a lot of light to use. The EX1 excells here as you know.

Using the express slot on a laptop and you can download a 16gb card in no time, empty it and have it safely back in the camer whils using the other card. Very easy. Though obviously the best objective is to have 5 16Gb cards at hand, which I will be mid summer at the latest.

Not yet had the chance to shoot a wedding in 1080P, but I will. Not had the camera long enough to try this out.

Before the EX1 I had a HVX200 with firestore. Now that was a bitch to shoot weddings with!

Steve I own and use a Steadicam Flyer with the EX1. It's a perfect combination, although a killer on my back after an hour! Trouble I found was switching from tripod to donning the vest and hooking up the camera then balancing it without missing anything!

Agree with you on lighting. Only use a light ( Vidled, excellent) for interviews and on the dance floor at reception.

Wow this thread has been hijacked a little. But to answer your question, Malcolm, I can dump to the Maxtor and not the internal. I just do both cause I can, and then I have both.

Sorry about the hijacking... but I'm eager to figure out the best workflow... can you dump to the external and the internal at the same time??? (that would be great)
Malcolm

It wasn't you that hijacked the thread...you stayed on topic. Anyways, I don't think you can because you can only set one location for the import in XDCAM Transfer. One 16 GB card only takes about 5 minutes or so to transfer from the internal to the Maxtor though.

You could probably set up an automatic script to backup everything from the dump to the internal hard drive to your external USB drive with no effort on your part. I would assume that is a trivial task for Automator (although I haven't tried it myself).

-Terence

What I really hope the folks at Sony do is to come up with a way to transfer your video from the inactive SxS card to a drive like the DR60 while you're shooting on the active card. All this would happen between the camera and Firestore or DR 60- ideally in the background while you're shooting. I think something like that would be great. A DR60 would give you almost enough space as 4 16gb SxS cards, and it would negate the necessity of lugging around a notebook and portable drive with you. It's awful tough to go on a backpacking trip or extended hike onto the Alaskan tundra with a bunch of extra gear!

I would think that it wouldn't be all that difficult to provide a firmware update or something containing a basic file transfer system/protocol, but then again, programming and coding isn't exactly my strong point!

Lets face it, you can pick up a dirt cheap laptop with an express card slot for less than £400. Don't think of it as a laptop, think of it as your transfer device. Stick the SxS card in it, copy the files to an external USB drive by simply copying the BPAV folder, then set it to burn a DL-DVD while you carry on shooting. If you use 8Gb cards you can do simple one card - one disk backups, you don't have to think about it. If you use bigger cards you must use the transfer tool to split the cards contents into 8Gb chunks which is a pain. Unlike digitising a tape there's no need to sit and watch the computer while it does it's job, just stick under a table or in a quiet corner. Then when you get back to base mount the USB drive on your PC or Mac and import the files as you would direct from the cards. The £0.50 DL-DVD's get put away as a long term backup, the USB drive can be erased or kept, whichever suits you.

If Sony bring out a transfer unit it's probably going to cost more than a cheap laptop. You can also use the laptop with the transfer tool as a viewer giving nice high resolution playback.

I've got a couple of 16Gb cards and 6x 8Gb cards. I far prefer working with the 8Gb cards.

I've taken my EX1 and a laptop to the Arctic and everything work just fine, if you go to NAB or IBC this year you'll be able to see the video for yourself.

Hi Adam,

My advise. You are there to 'capture' the day.
You "must" have redudancy for anything that you are "relying on"
Anything that is a single point of failure - get a spare, rent it, borrow it.

We can't say that the card is too expensive so therefore I am going to take a risk. You cannot "accept the risk" on behalf of a customer for a once in a lifetime event and not bring backup to the weddings.

-If one of your SXS cards doesn't work, you need a spare
-If your camera dies - you need a spare
-If your battery fails - you need a spare or a AC adapter
-If your bulb blows - you need a spare
-If your laptop fails - you need a backup (you can get an HP laptop with an express card reader for $499

..ok you know what I mean :)

It's not only peace of mind - it's a requirement. It's due diligence.
If for some reason something goes wrong and you get sued, the question would be, did you do what a normal responsible person do in your case.
Did you apply standard care.

I work as an IS Compliance officer for a big computer company so we deal with these risk based questions daily :)

Sidenote:
I think the EX1 is an excellent cam for weddings. I do monopod or tripod always so the handle etc - doesn't bother me.

Steve's comment is so true - regarding archiving. I started shooting weddings when I was 16 and been doing so now for 15 years. I accumulated so many VHS, SVHS, HI-8, DV, DVCAM, HDV tapes over those years - it makes me sick. It's very costly, and a big waste of space. Just this year I've started throwing them out slowly or selling the DV/HDV tapes

After I've handed over the tape or DVD to customers, they NEVER come back. With DVD if they want copies after like 6 months (some don't know how to copy DVD'S or are afraid they'll erase it - serious ha ha) I just ask them to drop off the DVD and copy it will they sit and have a coffee.

EX1 --> HDD1 ---> Backup HDD2 while you edit (chances of both drives
failing is practically zero)

Blu-Ray or DVD for customer delivery

Keep the Backup HDD for about 3 months in case the customer comes back
Flush your Backup HDD and write newer stuff.
Keep samples of the good ones on BD-R

Every 12-18 months replace your drives you'll never have a problem

After 24-36 months - buy an EX2 :)

Cheers
Paul

Great post Paul.

Just ooking at my year planner I have 22 weddings booked so far for this year, and am bound to get a few more over the course of the summer.

The EX1 was purchased in the UK on 12 months interest free credit. I don't pay a thing on it until next January. So I have two choices. Keep it and pay the £4500, or sell it on Ebay for £800 less than I paid for it and make up the difference. So basically the camera would have cost me £800 in rental over the year. Then I go get a new one for 2009 on 12 months interest free!

So I get a new camera every year for around £800.

Hi Steve, that's awesome.
A great deal - and the EX1 will hold it's value well.

I have a z1u (basically new) - I sold my other one which was 2.5 years used. This one was my backup and still is. It's docked with a 5 Hr Battery and HDV tape ready to shoot "always".

I bought my z1u for 6K and sold it for 3K after 2.5 years of good use.
I don't know if I want to get another EX1 for backup. I think post NAB we'll see some other interesting options. I wouldn't mind having something different simply for POV shots.

Even if Adam purchases a laptop - he could go for a use one or buy new and sell it a year later when SXS media drops.

Backup gear sometime becomes experimental stuff for the next best thing.

Like when I had a SVHS camera - i bough a mini-dv camcorder - loved it and then went all DVCAM. Had DVCAM - borrowed a hdv camera to test and for backups - loved it and moved to DVCAM (same for the EX1). Next level up would be a 4K digital cinema camera. Speaking of which - I'm interested to see what the Red - Scarlet is all about.

Ok i don't want to hijack the thread - back to backup issues :P

Thanks
Paul

I use a cheap HP DV6000 laptop for backup. A good little laprop for the price but I am in the lookout for two cheap 16Gb cards. Got 2 16Gb and 2 8Gb SxS at the mo but 5 16Gb cards is ample for a full day shooting and then I won't have to worry about backup.

If I can get a single 32Gb card that would be great but costs will be prohibitive for a while and it wil cost a wedding for the card.

I need a new second camera for pickup/POV. Last year I was using a small Sony HC3 stuck at the back of the church on a trip but although HDV the quality was not good enough when viewed wit the other camera and it took a fair bit of work in post to get the image to reasonably match.
Anyway thats way off topic.

Where's these cheap £400 laptops with sxs card slots ? I haven't seen them .

Paul.

Paul, most laptops have express cards lots and the SXS cards fit into that. The slot looks wider but the SxS card slips into the left hand side of it.

Check out the HP DV6000. Cheap and works very well. Guess there are others just as cheap which work as well. There's one on ebay right now currently at £349

There are dozens out there Paul. Almost every HP & Compaq machine has one.

I have 2 laptops from HP - both have them. One is like 2 years old - the other about 10 Months.

Here is one i just saw the other day in Canada. 400 pounds ($800 USD or CDN dollars)

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/ser...ductId=1004759


Paul

If I'm lugging around a camera, tripod, batteries, and a DR60, combined with all my clothing, food, water, sleeping gear, tent, etc., I don't want to have to tack on an additional 10 pounds with a cheap (flimsy) laptop with it's own batteries and a bunch of blank DVDs. Not to mention that all those extra batteries have to kept warm in very cold environments.

I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to convey. I'm not talking about a dedicated piece of hardware to go between the camera and a hard drive. I'm trying to go towards using LESS hardware. If I have a DR 60 connected via Firewire to an EX1, why can't there be a small program or executable within the EX1 that will just transfer those files to the hard drive? Heck, I had a tiny little PDA that could transfer files between different media cards while I was working on it. I don't think it would be impossible to achieve this on a $7000 camera.

I can't make it to NAB this year, but I'm gunning for next year... I'd love to see what you were able to shoot with the EX1. Since you brought a laptop out there with you, I'm curious to hear about some of the logistics involved. Were you far away from a road system? Did you have to hike a long way or travel via snow machine? Were you working alone or did you have people with you to help carry equipment and such? Were out in adverse conditions for an extended period of time? Did you have to sleep in a tent or did you have a cabin or bunkhouse?

I don't want to say that having to carry around a laptop is bad- only that it's not for everyone or suitable for every situation. I'm sure there are others like me, because I don't necessarily have several hundred dollars to spend on yet another piece of equipment that I need to lug around with me.

Just my two cents.

cheap trick!
 

You're right Mike...16GB memory stick...$74.95...Just get 2-16's and 2 8's to go with the 2 16 Sonys and 2 8 Sonys. That's a terrific idea!

Back up first to the drive then to the USB...this way it's in two places.
I need to do that. Thanks for the suggestion.
Best, Craig

Craig,

I have been doing exactly this for 2 months. It works a treat. You can just put your USB sticks in your pocket - so if something happens to the laptop (theft) you still have a backup copy.

If your back-upping to a good USB-stick I think you are pretty much safe. If you use the SxS cards only you also have risk of it failing but it is very small. So I guess SxS to USB-stick through laptop is a pretty solid workflow. Like someone mentioned before... if you want to avoid all risks you need at least two camera's, two laptops and basically two operators as something can happen to you as well. But USB-sticks are very affordable.

It would be nice when you camera could record straight to a USB-stick. Those things are cheap, reliable (have 5 and not a single issue) and universal.

In my opinion best(and cheap) option to USB sticks would be 2,5'' external hard drives. Much cheaper Gb/$ ratio compared to USB sticks... What do you think?

Eldar,

I do that too. Back up to USB sticks, and also to 2.5inch HDD. The USB sticks live in my pocket and are safe. THe HDD lives with the laptop and is the data backup for the laptop. At a later stage just burn the USB stick to DVD for archiving.

Eldar, why do you want to drag a 2,5" HD with you? Harddisks are mechanical and have a higher fail ration. They also require external power.

I would say:

- Record to SxS
- Copy to notebook harddisk
- Copy to USB-stick
- Erase SxS and continue recording

And I wouldn't feel very bad about skipping the copy to notebook. You just need to check if everything copied properly. Does the transfer tool have a tool to verify the data you copied with the data on the SxS card?

I'm also using the 2.5" HDDs isntead of USB sticks.It power itself from the USB port actually so no external power needed, has more capacity, costs less for GB. I back up to my laptop HDD and to the external HDD. Then at home to DVD.

8 GB and 16GB USB sticks - - what a fantastic idea!!!
Would anyone recommend a good manufacturer... these things really need to be trustworthy...
Cheers,
Malcolm

Corsair Flash Voyager GT 8GB USB2.0 High-Speed Flash Drive is the best option, IMHO!

I would say Corsair or Sandisk. I have a Crusair Voyager and it is very decent and is completely covered in rubber which I think is very durable.