Playback stutters
 

We recently purchased a couple EX3's and we're doing some tests before using them in production. I'm the post production supervisor not a DP.

The DP decided that he wants to use 1080P30 which is fine by me. However in the first test he shot with everything on auto [just to see what it would do] 1080P30 and the shutter was 1/60.

When he does a slow pan across the room on a fairly wide shot it stutters a bit. Is this a progressive issue? Should we use a different shutter speed? Is it possibly an incorrect setting in FCP?

I realize this is a bit vague but I thought I would start here in hopes that someone who uses FCP would say "push this button" and all your troubles will be solved...

Anyway I'm glad to provide more information if someone needs it.

Thanks

Sounds pretty much like what I saw (see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...ing-birds.html) but lots of people say it's normal. I've not used the EX cameras seriously so would bow out vs those who have, but I didn't like what I saw 1 bit - and I'm used to progressive with Sony 750 and Varicam.
Steve

Stuttering is common to anything shot progressively as well as to film, which is identical to progressive because it's recording entire single frames and not interlaced frames.

Interlaced provides more images per second (60 fields per second) and looks smoother. Progressive provides fewer frames per second and breaks down movement into larger intervals: 30 per second instead of 60 as it would be with interlaced video. Thus the "stutter".

Adjusting shutter speeds can increase or reduce the apparent stutter but will not get rid of it entirely.

The large problem is that many judge motion on their PC LCD. Mine stutters more than normal progressive regardless what camera's footage I'm viewing on my system.

When I create the final master may it be DVD, BluRay, ect.. it plays back perfect on an HDTV.

I saw "stuttering" on TV screen and also on interlaced I shot with an EX1. I'm gonna do some EX3 and PDW700 side by side tests soon, will post results and hopefully clips if I can figure it out!
Steve

How were you viewing it on your "TV screen", mastered to a media, or direct from the camera?

Straight from the camera, presumably the purest way?
Steve

Yes, you would thinks so..
But, for some odd reason, it's different?

I noticed the difference when I first bought the camera almost a year ago.
Oddly, my JVC HD100 did the same thing. When viewed straight to my set, it had more judder than normal... very strange.

Has anyone else seen this difference with the EX1?

When I burn a BluRay, motion is normal. 24P has the normal 24P motion, and 1080 60i is smooth and sharp during pans. I'm not sure why the cadence appears to be different?

Someone else please compare this for my sanity! LOL
Burn a DVD, or BluRay and compare to direct from the camera.

Steven, you are entirely correct... I shoot mostly 1080p and 720p overcranked and when previewing footage back on high end LCD or directly thru the camera to HDTV it almost looks like 24p judder sometimes...can look like footage is stuttering as described by Chuck. for real world results I render and master to Blu-ray disc or even Blu-ray format file and play back on PS3 and the results are absolutely amazing and perfectly smooth... and I am shooting DH MTB and Motocross with a lot of fast motion and pans.

Thanks Jason.
Maybe someone has an idea why the difference.

Steve T and Jason, are you saying you see judder viewing unedited footage on your screen, but if you render and master, it goes away? Is this so even when viewing it again on the same LCD screen (or HDTV)?

Yes, burn a BluRay and compare to the same video direct video out to your HDTV.
The BluRay has normal motion.

yes burn a blu-ray or at least a Blu-ray file to playback on a PS3 if you have one.

Thanks everyone.

We would like to be creating Blu-Ray DVD's early next year. Jason, I'm interested in your workflow, especially your use of PS3.

We can make a different thread if you like.

Thanks

Chuck, basically for Blu-ray file playback on PS3, I do the following. My NLE of choice now is Vegas but I still use FCP on occasion, but I use Vegas for this.... This is not exact as I am not in front of my machine but this is pretty close as far as I recall.

1.1920x1080 project select render as 1920x1080 Blu-ray 60i template
2. Customize template to progressive instead of interlace.
3. set type to MPEG 2
4. Set render to best
5. Set quality to best which is 31 I think
6. Audio must be set to include if you want it.
7. Under system tab you can select transport stream which will make the file a .m2t
8. Render
9. My last test preview was just under 12 minutes and file size was 2.5+ GB

Once complete create Folder called VIDEO place your .m2t file in it and copy it to a USB stick then you can plug it into your PS3 and copy it onto the PS3 harddrive then it will show up under the videos folder on the PS3.


You can also burn a normal DVD with AVCHD which is a Blu-Ray format with a bit rate of up to 24 Mbit/sec and play it back on the PS3 or so people say, I have not tried that yet but have heard it works well also.

Works Awsome!!


Let me know if you need specific instructions and I will explain in detail when I get back to the edit bay.

Hey Steve, have you had a chance to do this side-by-side comparison? I'm contemplating the PDW700 and using my EX1 as a "B" camera.

I've used the 700 and EX3 side by side on several occasions. There is very little difference in the picture quality, in many instances it is difficult to tell which is which. I have not done an in depth progressive motion comparison between the 700 and EX, but they certainly cut together without any issue.

Not been able to do it yet. What I'll try and do is get the two mounted on the same tripod and do the exact same shot with both (panning/tilting).
I not doubting Alister in any way, but I do find it hard to believe that a camera with a CMOS chip will give a similar image to a CCD camera. But we shall see, certainly if the 2 of them do have similar images I know which one I'd rather cart around and pay for - which as usual makes me question why if the performance is similar why anyone would buy the 700? And it's not the 1/2" chip thing, as the EX cameras are pretty sensitive, and you can (or will shortly be able to) get an ultrawide for it, while at the long end your lenses have more reach. Except for image qulaity you'd have to be insane to buy a 700.
Steve

Thanks! I'm not worried about "image quality" per se, I'm in love with my EX1's image quality, except for slow pans on static subjects. That's the only reason I'd consider the 700, those 2/3" CCD chips that should give me the motion I need, no questions asked. I'm curious about the Scarlet and the faster CMOS refresh rates and 'huge' news it's supposed to be, but my guess is we wait until mid-Nov to hear an "announcement" that it's projected to be possibly ready by late mid/late 2009, and who knows. Jim, bless him, is a master at anticipation marketing. And of course I'm still holding out hope the Nano Flash will be available soon and see if it's the codec or CMOS that's bugging me on these slow EX1 pans. But sometimes I wonder if I should just bite the bullet and go with one of the big boys and have what I need (except the 700 is bigger/heavier than I prefer).

Playback from the EX1 is always smooth on a Blu-ray authored disk, 24p included. The EX1 is no different than other cams in this respect.

Chuck, sorry to hear you're having problems with your EX3s.

So far, shooting for nearly a month in 1080p at 30fps, I haven't seen this stutter you're talking about. I'm confident that it isn't an EX3 issue. I can't comment on the possibility of it being an FCP issue, as I use another NLE.

Best of luck on getting it sorted out!

Thanks for the PS3 recipe!

Again, it depends on how you are viewing motion.
Direct out of the camera to an HDTV set it looks odd for motion.
Burn to BluRay looks normal.

If you have not done this, be prepared to be surprised.
I've had the bluray playing (1080i) the same footage and at the same time the EX1 running to another input on my 50" Pioneer plasma. Switching to the EX1 the image had odd motion with softer pans. The Bluray input looked perfect, very smooth.
I'm not sure what the heck is going on there...

I can say my JVC HD100 did the same thing... I'm unsure why?