Thanks for that link Daniel, well done. I can see it fixes the blacks and I can now understand why its best to use it only when needed. I did see the white wall just to the left of the chair (our left) turn a very light lime green and the out side shot (fence) I seen the filter darken the picture slightly. I thought I saw a hint of green in the sky shot.

From what I seen its definitely need for the blacks but to keep it off when not needed.

I'm just wondering how I would work this out when I video my weddings. Grooms can have black suits, brothers and sisters of brides and grooms in family photos can and do ware black and if it turned out a different colour in the DVD they would notice this right away.

A few weddings ago the bridesmaids wore black dresses and the brides mother wore black.
So how would you go about dealing with that.

I think theres something badly wrong when we have to fit filters to correct this.

4 x 4 ?
 

I understand that the 486 HAS to be the outside filter, no filters in front of the 486. So a screw on can be problematic if you want to add another filter like a polarizer.

I don't find any 4 X 4 486 filters. Any leads?

That's because in the 4x4 size, the 486 is called a 'Tru-Cut 650'
(don't ask me why)
I got one just the day before yesterday through Filmtools in CA. I don't know if they stock it, or had to order it in, but Ryan Avery (the Schneider rep) was very kind to arrange for delivery of the filter. He mentioned several different retailers you can get one through. I just like Filmtools for my past experience dealing with them, but Ryan mentioned you can also get one through Abel Cine, Alan Gordon Enterprises, or Express Video Supply.
I haven't had a chance to play with it yet, but am optimistic that it's the best choice at the moment, with the understanding that it does have some shortcomings which have already been addressed at length in this forum.

Actually 680, isn't it Derek? If so, that would be for the 680 nm range that it's cutting at (unlike to 750 which is of the "Hot Mirror" type, and has proven to not be effective with the EX - or more generally, CineAlta - series of cameras).

BTW, do you happen to know whether its 4x5.65" version is also available?

I agree that its wrong we have to fork out for a filter that is going to affect so many shooting applications, its just crazy. Although the filter does have a slight green tint if I were shooting weddings I would make the sacrifice and just keep it on, because I'd rather deal with a shifted white point rather than a black suit turn red. In post I can pretty easily get my white balance sorted so the green tint is gone (if it was even noticeable which is questionable) but unless i do several secondary colour passes i can't turn the reddish brown suits back to black again.

Daniel, what was the exact part number or catalog number of the filter you were using? This was the screw-in version, correct?

Yeah Piotr, you are correct. It is a Tru Cut 680.
Sorry for my brain-fart there.

Would that greenish tint be noticeable against church windows or a shaft of sunshine on a church wall for instance.


So colour correction could sort out the greenish bits.

Perhaps this isn't as bad as I'm reading into it, I don't know. Just when coming from a camera were theres not bother like this, it makes you wonder.

The greenish tint reduces to nothing as you zoom in. The coating on the filter reflects different wavelengths at different angles, so full wide using the outer curve of the lens picks up light at a different angle. That's why you get a greenish vignette.

Heres a link to the exact filter to answer Dave's question B&W UV-IR Digital 77: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo.

Anthony I'm quite confident that you wouldn't have a problem with the green tint against any window or shaft of sunlight mainly because after white balancing with the filter already screwed on you can hardly tell the difference anyway, I mean from my tests I couldn't imagine the green cast being anywhere near strong enough to cause me a problem UNLESS i was filming against a white background at full wide (even then a short zoom in will solve that problem).

Yes colour correcting in post easily sorts this problem out and thank God it's as simple as using an eye dropper tool to tell your application what colour white is supposed to be and because I usually balance my pictures with a colour correcting wheel anyway I don't find myself having to do any extra work which is good. But i stress again that I doubt you'd even need to do this as in most cases it's only visible if you have pre-filter footage to compare it next to.

All in all i am not happy that I have to use a filter to correct something Sony failed to even mention initially but I am happy that despite it's drawbacks, I now have a solution to create videos that I want, looking how i want (even if it means an extra click or too in FCP to re-white balance).

Thanks Daniel, well, its good to know its not as bad as i first thought and if a slight zoom in from a wide cures it, thats good to know too. Glad the window thing isn't going to be a problem.

I received the filter from the supplier below on Saturday BTW

B+W 486 UV/IR MRC SH 77mm Ultraviolet / Infrared Cut Filter

Thanks again.

i haven't read all the threads but i've been looking for the Schneider Tru-Cut 680. the one that ProVideo Coalition recommended for the EX cameras. Ryan at Schneider said i can buy it at Film Tools in Burbank, CA. i believe he told me the filters are on back order. i think about 3 weeks out from purchasing.

Tiffen Hot Mirror?
 

Tiffen Filters also make an IR filter. Seems that this one is made differently than the Schnieder and that you don't get the green cast with W/A lenses. In addition, I think you don't need to put the filter on the outside, before any other filters. Downside is that they only make them in square and rectangular.

Anybody using a Tiffen Hot Mirror??

It's the Tiffen IR ND filter, hot mirrors do nothing for the EX, it already has one built in.

As far as I know you can't get them without the ND as well. They use a dye in proportion to the ND component to block far red, and you get no vignette as it's not a dichroic.

David
I was on the phone today with Tiffen. You can get the filter WITHOUT ND. It is somewhat confusing as they mostly make the IR WITH ND for Red cameras.

If that's the filter with the dye only, no dichroic layers, that's great news because that is the perfect filter for the EX. Cuts all IR and no vignette. I think the process is branded ColorCore.

These http://www.tiffen.com/pr_infrared_filters.html

Ed,
This sounds like very good news.

Do you have a name for that filter without ND.
Also did you talk with them about the value of making round filters for it Every EX-1 owner would buy one.
Usually they can make a round filter if you ask them, but it will cost.

Who did you talk to at Tiffen?

Harold E. (Harry) Hofmann
Senior Technical & Customer Service Rep.
Tiffen Acquistion LLC
hhofmann@tiffen.com
631-273-2500 ext. 1405

Interesting. When I was on the phone to Tiffen, they told me this was not available. They also told me that any 4x4 IRND would have to be custom-cut and would take at least 4 weeks!

I also do not agree with the post which said hot mirrors do nothing for the EX. I recently took delivery of a Tru-Cut 680, and it seems to work quite nicely so far! I know the 750 does not work with the EX, but the 680/486 seems to do the trick. I have not even noticed the vignetting yet, so that does not seem to be a big issue.

I would be wary of the Tiffen without ND built in, as it seems using external ND's (including the ones in the camera) may very well affect the performance of the IR correcting capacity, since the amount of dye is based on the level of ND used. If no ND is needed, then it's probably okay.... but what do you do when using this filter outdoors?

Your correct, the 680 works, albeit with wide angle green vignette. I should have specified the 720 and 750. The built in EX hot mirror seems to work from @ 700nm onward.

The Tiffen IR ND range have the dye component balanced to not cut far red, but to reduce it in proportion to visible light. A normal ND 0.9 reduces visible light to 12.5%, but your still getting 100% of far red getting to the sensor. It then becomes predominant, and you get problems. The IR ND 0.9 dye reduces far red to the same proportion as visible light, to 12.5%

That's why I thought they didn't make them in that fashion as IR only. I hope is possible.

But what about the amount of dye being used in proportion to the level of ND being used? If a ColorCore filter is used without ND added, does this mean no external ND (camera NDs or other external NDs) can be used?
This is the way I understand it.... and why I decided against the Tiffen IRND filters. I simply wasn't going to pay $250-$300 for EACH level of ND I might need to have the proper amount of dye in proportion. I already have an expensive set of 4x4 ND filters. Personally, I'd rather save $$$ and deal with the possibility of some minor vignetting with the True-Cut 680 than have to buy a whole new set of NDs. I don't see how the ColorCore can be used successfully outdoors on a bright day.
If the ColorCore without ND can be used with various levels of external NDs, (including grad NDs) I'd be more interested...... anyone know if this is possible?

Derek,

Since you're the first one here to have the 680 filter, it'd benefit all of us if you posted some screen grabs showing its effectiveness. Before ordering, I for one would like to be sure it's as effective as its screw-on sibling, the 486.


Thanks in advance !

I've been following this thread for some time and am left with the feeling this issue will never be solved to everyones satisfaction.
I believe the 486 will be as good as it gets. The solution requires an extremely sharp cut at a specific wavelngth. This can not be achieved with a dye based filter. The 486 is multiple layers of a metallic coating which probably act like a stack of HiQ notch filters to effect a band cut filter.
I did a very crude test using two IR LEDs and our HC5 in nightshoot. One of the LEDs is around 1100nm and is invisible to the eye. The other would be around 900nm and is just visible. Both light up the HC5 nicely although the longer wavelength one is better. The 486 totally kills the shorter wavelength IR but not so much of the longer wavelength IR LED.
The IR filter in the HC5 (Nightshoot Off) kills both.
This was a very crude test but it certainly doesn't disprove my belief that the 486 is a very complex filter and that to achieve the same effect in any other way would be impossible. It is not a hot glass filter. We do have several extreme ND hot glass filters and from the outside they are like looking into a mirror, same as welding goggles. These filters are designed to stop heat (long wavelength IR) that could cook a sensor or eyeballs or at the very least cause green shifts in the image.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, Bob - is it that the 680 isn't going to work as effectively as the 486?

I did have the 486 but sold it, since I'm using the 35mm adaptor and need a 4x5.65" version for my matte box.

I now know it wasn't a good decision, but at least would like to see the effectiveness of the 680 before I pay again :)

Piotr, unless I misunderstood Ryan at Schneider Optics, the Tru-Cut 680 is exactly the same filter as the 486. (correct me if I'm wrong, Ryan?) The only difference being the 486 is a screw-on filter and the 680 is a 4x4. (perhaps the same designation for a 4x5.65 if they make that size) Why it has a different name is confusing, but irrelevant to the performance of the filter.

I'll post some frame grabs when I have a chance to set up a decent test, but don't expect them to be any different from previous tests done by others with the 486/680.
I agree with Bob, this filter is as good as it gets at the moment. No filter currently is 'the' perfect filter, but the 486/680 is as close as we can come.

Michael,

Yes I have read the whole series of those articles.

Derek,

Yes I'm also assuming the 680 to be the rectangular equivalent of the 486; however I'd appreciate seeing some grabs of it in action. TIA!

cheat sheet
 

This from Art Adams:

Read the comments which follow the short cheat sheet. Interesting that Art doesn't list the 680/486 as a filter to use for the EX, also interesting that a couple of the comments mention that the Tiffen IRND is not available without the ND, but some people here have mentioned that it is. (for the record, I was told by Tiffen that it is not available without ND)

I'll post some grabs sometime in the next few days with the 680, looking forward to hearing from anyone if they are successful in obtaining a Tiffen without ND, and how it works?

I'm still trying to sort out the tiffen confusion. I think there are two kinds of tiffen filters. An IRND and a Hot Mirror (with or without ND). But I'm still not sure and can't get further answers back from them.
I think the Hot Mirror can be had without ND and should be a good solution but I can't yet confirm that.
And, they don't come in 77mm, only square or rectangle.

I think I've said this before on another thread on the same subject.

I believe there's a good chance that Art is solving a different problem to the one we're trying to address. If you add an external ND to any camera and if that ND does not also cut IR you can get more IR than visible light hitting the sensor and then you can have a problem. This seems to be one reason why the extreme ND filters commonly are hot glass. If you cut 10 stops of visible light and no IR it's pretty easy to see how a problem can arise. Of course that's an extreme example but I've even read of people having issues with a HVX 200 when they gelled windows and the gells did not cut IR.

So perhaps someone should invite Art to elaborate more on this issue before anyone jumps the gun and spends serious money on a filter that may not do the job or worse introduce more problems.

I also found this photo from another thread interesting:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/attachmen...r-dsc_3391.jpg

I see what appears to be a deep greenish filter in the optical path of the EX3, no doubt it's the same in the EX1.

Some 680 frame grabs
 

Okay, so I promised to post some frame grabs with my Tru-Cut 680. I (hastily, as ususal) threw some black stuff on my bench and shot a couple of clips under different color temps, with and without ND, and with and without the 680.

This is not intended to be a test such as the comprehensive one conducted by Art Adams at the ProVideo Coalition. Just an everyday example of what one might expect using the 680. I have no other filters for IR with which to test anyway.

My conclusion is this. The 680 works perfectly for removing IR contamination (or, far red or whatever it is) with little side effects other than a slight color shift in the image (very slight) and a rather major green vignette at full wide. This was to be expected. Zoomed in at about 15mm on the lens, the vignette all but disappears. So the short answer to this problem (IMHO) is buy ONE filter, the Tru-Cut 680 and have it work in most of your shooting conditions, or buy SEVERAL Tiffen IRNDs (because they cannot be used with other NDs, and you have to buy a different filter for each level of ND you might need) and have them work in most of your shooting conditions. Neither is going to be a 100% solution.

Interesting to note that I put several different black items on the bench, with varying textures and structure. Only one was consistently and heavily affected in all color temps (the Skullcandy bag) and one fabric item was never affected (the gray and black shirt)
Other items were affected in different areas, like the borders on the Lectro cube cover or the media wallet. Smooth surfaces don't seem to be affected at all. (no surprise there) The reddish band on the speaker is indeed that color, that is not contamination.

So here you go, for your viewing pleasure: the highly professional stickies will indicate the status of that clip. I shot under incandescent (3400K) Fluorescent (4900K) and Daylight (HMI @ 6300K)
I did NOT re-balance when using the 680. (don't know if I should have done that or not)
The images have not been adjusted at all, they are straight frame grabs-
enjoy. There will be a second part to get the rest of the images in......

680 frame grabs part 2
 

Here are the rest of the grabs, and examples of the vignette

I would like to comment on the green vignette issue. I too did a similar test like Derek and pointed the camera to a white wall. The vignette is alarming when observed in this way BUT in the real world, unless you are not filming a very pale plain background, the vignette is much less visible. I'm not saying it does not exist but it might be very easily missed by the client especially in event videos where the shots are usually short and change frequently and the shot consists of other eye catching moving images.

Also remember that if the resultant footage is seen on 40" or bigger screens, the eye will have to travel from the centre to the edge of the screen to really notice the vignette.

I'm not happy with the outcome but in the absence of any real alternative and in view of the horrible blacks being produced by the EX series, I must say that the 486 / True cut 680 is a must have for the time being for any EX camera owner.

I just picked up a 680 and have yet to do any tests, but it would have been SO nice for Sony to admit that their camera has a problem with IR and offer this filter to the folks who b**ch loud and long enough. I'm sure they would work out some sort of large purchase deal with Schneider/B&W to make this happen. I know it wouldn't make everybody happy, but it sure would have taken the sting out of having to pay almost $300 for one of the little buggers.

Black Is Back
 

Good news from Ryan Avery at Schneider. The Tru Cut 680 will be marketed as a solution for the IR issue with the EX cameras making it much easier for the filter to be obtained.

Schneider acknowledges that at full wide there will be a green/cyan vignette, but as many have found this is just not that noticeable unless against a light neutral background, and I have found zooming in to just 15mm will make it completely disappear. I personally feel the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta anyway, and this filter only needs to be used when the IR issue is present. It is not a filter to leave on the camera all the time.

I also noticed I neglected to add one of my frame grabs.... the 6300K no ND with 680. Somehow I missed that grab, but the 680 worked perfectly in that shot as it did with all the others. (who'd want to shoot at f16 with an EX anyway?)

This filter really does the trick..... and no need for multiple filters to have to deal with it. No light loss either.

it's nice to be back in the black.

Thanks Derek.

I personally do NOT agree that "the vignette is much less objectionable than the blacks going magenta" - not under some circumstances, like a multi-camera shoots (that's why I sold away my 486 filter).

But at least we now know for sure what the current situation is.

Hi, Piotr-
I can see where this would be a problem for you with muliti-cam shoots.... the only solution there would be if all the cameras were EXs and all using the 680.

I did notice that the vignette all but disappeared when zooming in to as little as 15mm. If you stay zoomed in somewhat, it should not be too much of an issue, but of course then you're limited in your framing.

Nothing's ever easy, is it?
good luck-

totally unacceptable
 

Zooming in to 15mm is a good solution?????????????????

I own the W/A lens for the EX-3. It's wide end is 4mm. No way will I consider the green cast acceptable. Maybe that works for wedding videos but not for the clients I serve in broadcast, commercials and corporate.

As I have repeatedly said..... none of the solutions are perfect. I'm happy with the filter, but realize it's limitations. If I need something to be black that is not due to the IR contamination, at least I know I can resolve it. It remains to be seen how much the green cast will be a problem, but I know I can get around that, too if I sacrifice going too wide.

I think with this issue, it's all about compromises. At least until Sony figures a way to resolve it.

Is the 486 the same filter as the True cut 680?

yes one is the name for the square 4x4 filter , the other for the round one