How to use PC field drives for Mac Edit System
 

Is anyone reliably using a PC in the field for editing on a mac, and if so, how are you formatting the drives so they're readable and reliable in both systems?

I've been using my older Powerbook to copy sxs cards to a couple of G-tech raid mini 500gb drives, until learning that you must use ClipBrowser to copy the BPAV folders. Since CB only works with Intel macs, I need an alternative to my MBP and would like to not have to buy a brand new MBP, as I'm buying a new MacPro.

I've got a Lenovo netbook and was going to load the media from the cards in via usb and then out to the drives using an Express 34/FW800 adapter. But can the G-techs be formatted for both the PC and mac? I'll need to offload the field drives onto edit and archive drives via MBP or MP. I understand that macs will read FAT32, and that you can get around the 32gb limit, but that FAT's an unstable platform. And maybe the software Macdrive will work some of the time, but not every time.

Anyone doing this?

A few months ago, Alex Lindsay talked about this on the MacBreak Weekly podcast. I remember him saying not to use FAT 32 as it was very unstable. He used a program for Windows that would allow a Windows computer to mount Mac hard drives. Do some Google searching and I bet you'll find it.

EDIT: Found the link for you: (what his team was using)
http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive/

Thanks for the link, Mitchell. Installed MacDrive, and the PC saw the mac drives, but CB (2.0) won't copy the files. Get the error message: Failed to copy the clip. Reason: You don't have a right to access the file or writing is prohibited for the file.

I'd email that error message to the MacDrive folks. I bet they'll have a solution for you. Make take a few days to hear back from them though. :)

I was able to get it to copy one clip over by making a folder and saving to that instead of the root drive, but when I did "Copy All", got the same error message. I'll see what macdrive folks have to say.

I'm guessing it's a Window's permissions issue which you should be able to fix easily with MacDrive's guidance.

MacDrive was very good about responding, but this was the answer:

Trying to use Mac files on a Mac drive in a Windows application is not always going to work. The more complex the application or the task, the more likely this is the case. As much as we would like MacDrive to be the solution in every scenario, we simply aren't able to test its compatibility with every software. You may wish to contact the developer of that application to report a problem using media with foreign file systems."

Given the number of things that can go wrong in the transfer process, I think it's probably asking for trouble to combine the two systems. Too bad.

That's too bad. As I mentioned earlier I had heard good things about using it. Maybe they got away with it because they only used it to transfer files. Dunno.... Sorry.

Mike, do not use clip browser, just copy the entire BPAV folder and paste it to your external drive then hook that drive up to your Mac and use clip browser from that point on.
Maybe I do not have any issues because I am using the Lacie external drives FW800/400 and USB 2.0 they come formatted for the Mac and the PC with macdrive handles them great and I can copy BPAV folders both directions with no problems... I use Vegas on a PC and FCP on my Mac but also run Vista with Vegas on both my Macs by way of bootcamp along with CB 2.0 for both PC and Mac. I can say I have zero problems... All my Media drives are the Lacie rugged drives I think they are great! Although the G-raid stuff is great as well I have never tried the same process with one. I always just copy the entire BPAV folder off my cards to what ever drive I intend to use. I only use clip browser after that for conversion to MXF or other formats... Been doing this for the last year with no issues.

sheeesh this gets confusing

If I shoot with an EX-3 in the field and the client brings their own hard drive for post AND I have a PC; will I have issues using my PC to load clips to this client external drive?

You'll have issues if your client's hard drive is formatted in Mac OS Extended and you're trying to hook it up to your Windows laptop in the field. The two are not compatible. Asking your client to bring a FAT32 formatted drive is not a recommended way to transfer files either. There's a 4 Gbyte file size limit with FAT32 and even though this is the exact same formatting used by the SxS Pro memory cards it doesn't work out too well to let any operating system split your video clips into chunks. Chances are very good that a program like Clip Browser will not be successful in recombining the files (personal experience during a test).

So what to do? Buy MacDrive® for your PC to allow it to write to a Mac formatted drive? According to a previous post in this thread it didn't work out too well. My recommendation is that if you're using a PC laptop in the field to offload EX clips then keep any external hard drive you use also formatted in NTFS for maximum reliability. If a client wants to bring you a Mac formatted drive then reformat it in NTFS and tell the client why you're doing it: so you don't run into problems with your WIndows machine while you're transferring EX files with Sony's Clip Browser Software.

Tell your Mac client that they can spend 40 bucks and get a program called: "NTFS for Mac® OS X 7.0" that they install on their Mac and it will read and write to any NTFS formatted hard drive. Works really well. They get home with their EX clips on an NTFS hard drive, plug it into their machine and drag the clips (or an entire BPAV folder) over to any Mac formatted drive and you're done.

No more barriers between Windows and Mac®

- Don

Jason: I'd been doing that with no problems, but then read the Sony CB downloadable manual which says in BOLD & RED: "To archive media from an SxS card to hard disc or other media, the Sony XDCAM EX ClipBrowser application must be used. Copying individual clips via the Macintosh Finder will result in unusable media on the target drive."

And since then, others have reported some problems with not using CB. I'd love to have this as an option, but don't think it's wise any more.

Mike, I guess that shows you I never read directions until after the fact... :) I do not copy individual clips I copy the entire BPAV folder... if you copy clips yes you will have major problems.. My SxS card shows up on my desktop, I double click on it and the BPAV folder is right there, select it and copy and paste it to my drive of choice. In over a year never had an issue doing it this way..but again I use a Mac formatted Lacie drive and when using Windows use Macdrive.

That's a good point, Jason. When I'd done it successfully I simply copied the whole BPAV folder, too. And the warning only mentions "individual clips." Would love to get a definitive answer on this from a technical standpoint. Maybe there really is no need to use CB if you're grabbing the whole thing.

Mike, from my understanding the BPAV folder contains the file structure for all clips in the folder including all metadata and XML info ect. If you try and only copy individual clips it will lose the reference info which then can make things very unstable, especially if trying to copy cross platform. In my experience as long as you copy the entire BPAV you are fine and do not have to use CB. I only use CB for browsing clips for preview and doing conversions to MXF or another wrapper.

I have just copied the BPVA folder back and forth between macs an pc, from external hd's to internal hd's without using the CB for over a year now and never had a problem.
As long as you just make a new folder to put the BPVA folder into you'll be fine

famous last words..... :)


I guess the point is, it's so easy to use the Clip Browser, why take the chance? Plus, the Clip Browser will automatically join clips together that have spanned 2 cards.

He, he, I expected someone to comment my last post.

I often find myself in need to empty the card and don't have time to log the footage. My coleaugue is on a pc and I'm on a mac and we often shoot together and need to share the footage and copying the BPVA folders to external hard disks has worked well for us over the past year. I dont see what is so bad with this workflow?

Just in case you didn't realize it Joachim...

Most people don't use the Clip Browser to log their footage, they just use it to transfer to an external hard drive so they can format the SxS card and keep on shooting. I do my logging in XDCAM Transfer (or maybe someday FCP Log & Capture) In addition, I believe the Clip Browser software is available for both PC and Mac.

So as I see it, you really don't have any reason to not be using the Clip Browser software, and benefit from the adding security of using it. :)

USING CLIP BROWSER
1) Launch Clip Browser
2) From within Clip Browser- drag your clips from the SxS card to your external hard drive
3) From within Clip Browser- erase your clips from the SxS card
4) Go back to shooting

NOT USING CLIP BROWSER
1) Drag clips from SxS card to your external hard drive
2) Put card back into camera
3) Erase your clips using camera
4) Go back to shooting

It's a great workflow and it will continue to work well for you because it's fast and easy. Until you lose that first really important video clip that your whole shoot is based on. Then you you might not think it's such a great workflow anymore. And it will happen. Eventually. Just like death and taxes. And failed hard drives.

If your work is important to you you'll find the time to copy your BPAV folders properly (with error-checking) on-site, whether it's done by yourself or by a card wrangler that you've trained for just this purpose.

I used to do the same thing you're doing now, which is to drag and drop from the cards to an external FW800 drive connected to my Macbook Pro on-site. And I never lost a clip in over a year of doing it . But I use Clip Browser now. Just to be safe.

- Don

Interesting, Mitchell.
I guess I got into this habit of mine early one due to the first versions of the clip browser.
I use the XDCAM Transfer software for Mac to log my footage after I have made back ups of the BPVA folders.
I just did this with footage shot last year, where the BPVA folders had been copied back and forth at least 4 times before I logged the footage this week with the director.

I will start using the CB I think, but how does it add security?
And does it keep the original BPVA structure?

I would never erase any of my 8gb SxS cards until I've burned a copy of the BPAV folder intact to a dual layer DVD, copied the BPAV folder intact to an external hard drive for archiving only, and then used XDCam Transfer to copy individual scenes to my fw800 external drive or MacPro internal drives for editing. Then I erase my card in the camera. Even after making 3 copies, I still feel unsure about erasing the card. Talk about a case of obsessive compulsive.

The only time I use Clip Browser is when I need to downconvert my 1080 30p files to SD. This has worked just fine for me for over a year now.

Mike Sims

Didn´t see your post Don, we must have written at the same time.
Is it so that the CB check the data that is transferred?

I´ll look into the CB right now

I copy the BPVA folder to my MBP and an external HD in the field if I have to off load on location, then I copy them to a HD at our editing suite.
So I keep 3 copies, but I have to say I hate formatting the SxS cards, it´s nerve racking everytime

But that was the whole point of my initial question, guys--it is NOT easy if you work in Mac and don't have an Intel laptop, since a non-Intel can't use CB and there's no fail-safe way of shuttling drives between a pc and a mac. If there really is no technical rationale to do it--and the Sony manual talks specifically about "individual clips"--then not using CB saves me 3 grand. My Power PC Mac Book Pro works just fine copying entire BPAV folders to mac-formatted drives. I suppose I could just buy the cheapest MacBook, but then it won't have express34 and won't be useable for editing HD.

Hi Mike
Sorry for side tracking.
I had a very important shoot in October and my only laptop was my wife´s iBook.
As I hadn´t read all the scare stories about copying BPVA folders back then, I used the iBook and copied the BPVA folders to 2 externals hard drives.
This worked fine, but it was a slow process. I went back to all the folders/clips with the director this week and everything worked flawlessly. I used the XDCAM Transfer tool now to log the clips.

It worked, and I would have recommended this workflow up until today, but reading the posts and warnings here I´m not sure I can.
It worked for me it´s all I can say.

I used to have a 24" iMac, but sold it to get an Intel MacBook Pro. My main reason was to get the Express card slot to speed things up.

I agree, Joachim, if it's necessary, but would love to have either a computer geek or a Sony rep say definitively that CB is safer when copying the entire bpav folder. I know many EX'ers have been adamant about using CB, but not sure if that's when copying clips vs. copying the whole folder.

Me too.
I think in general people have been talking about the CB when they are dealing with individual clips, but who knows.
The BPVA folder contains data, and copied as a whole, I don´t understand how the clips can be "damaged"
I´m not saying they can´t, but I would like for someone to explain it properly.

I can't explain "why" you should use the Clip Browser. Only that in the Sony instruction manual it says in big bold RED letters to never transfer clips using the operating system, to only use the Clip Browser software to transfer clips off the SxS cards. Personally, that's enough of an explanation for me. :)

That's what I thought, too, Mitchell, but what it says is this:

"To archive media from an SxS card to hard disc or other media, the Sony XDCAM EX ClipBrowser application must be used. Copying individual clips via the Macintosh Finder will result in unusable media on the target drive."

Guess I'll just have to take Craig's word for it.

clarify
 

I think this was answered but this is all very confusing...

If I have a PC laptop can I transfer EX footage to mac formatted hard drives?

I read something about reformatting the drives to ntfs. What if the client already has some footage on that hard drive? Then I can't re-format, correct? SOL?

Yes, as long as you have the MacDrive® program installed on your Windows laptop. This will allow you to write to an externally connected hard drive that's already formatted in Mac OS Extended. Some folks here have mentioned that they had problems with their PC reading/writing to the Mac hard drive using MacDrive®. This is their experience, not mine.

However, I do have experience with using Paragon Software's "NTFS for Mac® OS X 7.0" program which allows an NTSF (Windows PC) formatted drive to be used with a Mac computer. It works really well.

Correct. Formatting any hard drive will destroy all information on the drive.

- Don

Absolutely. It's tough if you don't have the Intel Laptop. All anyone is saying is that with Clip Browser you have that program's built-in error checking function working for you to make sure everything got copied to the other location without issue.

Then there's this consideration: when you bought your EX you didn't just buy the camera. You also made a conscious decision to buy into the workflow as well. This means that in order to protect the integrity of your video clips you need to use Clip Browser, which also means going out and buying an Intel Laptop. Some would call this the cost of doing business.

An alternative program called "Shotput®" also employs error checking during the copy process. One of its functions is to copy the contents of SxS Pro cards to multiple locations at the same time. It's a Universal Binary app so it'll work on your Power PC laptop. You can find the program here:

ShotPut Pro - Video Offloading for Mac and Windows

- Don

I don't want to argue against using the clip browser, I will start using it now, but it seems to me that Sony say you should use it when transferring clips, not the entire BPVA folder. Its a much bigger risk transferring individual clips than the entire folder IMHO.
I checked that my clips were working using the vlc player and it worked for me. But since I have an intel mac I will now start using the clip browser

Ps has anyone had corrupted clips after just dragging the BPVA folder directly to an external hard disk?

I used to do the drag and drop of the BPAV files. I never had a problem. However, discussions here on the forum convinced me to use the Clip browser in CRC mode to safely copy all the clips. It takes a lot longer than dragging, but I feel a little safer doing it this way, and I actually like the automatic naming the Clip browser with the current date and unique ID (I rename them later when I have time).

Don

Can you offer any suggestions as to why some had issues and you don't? I would like to go the PC route but have the ability to load files to mac drives. So MacDrive 7 sounds good. I got a response from MediaFour. It sounds like they are concerned that Clip Browser will cause conflicts with their MacDrive software.

Are you using Clip Browser with MacDrive to load files to a Mac Formatted drive through a PC?? With no issues at all?

None whatsoever. I was simply referring to Mr. Chandler's first reply in this thread when he mentioned having trouble with his workflow using MacDrive®. Personally, I don't have any experience with it.

No. I go the other way. I'm totally Mac-based but with the program "NTFS for Mac® OS X 7.0" which allows me to read and write to PC-based hard drives. This way I can transfer media common to both platforms on to clients' own PC-based systems.

I've also never tried using Clip Browser to copy BPAV folders to an NTFS volume connected to my Mac because the need hasn't been there yet. Normally when offloading SxS Pro cards in the field I'm all Mac.

- Don