More stuttering zoom stories....
 

Many of you are already familiar with the stuttering zoom issue present with some ex cameras. There have been posts here and on other boards describing it, with various responses from Sony. I provided a fairly detailed description in this thread some time back;

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/sony-xdca...-normal-2.html

This has become an on-going issue with the ex3 that my business partner and I initially purchased in early July. I think we’re on camera number 4 now, having opened up at least two other boxes with new cameras. In short, slow- to mid-speed zooms cannot generally be executed without a pulsing or stuttering action of the lens under constant rocker pressure. In attempting to work around the problem I’ve found that ramping past the slow-zoom range in the rocker position (ignoring the initial stutters), trying to settle on a steady mid-speed zoom will also fail. It’ll work for a moment, but then the zoom speed accelerates (without further rocker pressure) and starts to get away from you. Reducing rocker pressure at this point brings you back into pulsing and stuttering territory. I cannot properly express just how frustrating and embarrassing it is to lose shot after shot like this. Sony is aware of the problem, as they have offered explanations to us either on the phone or in person. But when it comes to their official responses in regard to a specific camera they will not acknowledge that the camera malfunctions.

We took the first camera back to the dealer and put it on their tech’s bench to demonstrate the problem. The dealer immediately suggested that this was a problem that occurred only at 24p, as he had already been given an explanation by Sony before we ever brought it to his attention. This was not the case, as we were able to reproduce the problem then and there at 1080/24p, 1080/30p and 1080/60i. Our dealer sent the camera to Teaneck for repair and Sony sent the camera back indicating they had given the camera and lens a thorough going-over, but acknowledged no malfunction. Obviously a camera that can’t zoom properly is not only a liability, but is pretty much useless for most kinds of work. When a director or producer asks you for a slow zoom, telling him/her that your equipment isn’t capable of it isn’t acceptable. The dealer understood, and we opened up two more boxes to find each new camera exhibited the same problem. We gave them back the camera.

We went to Abel Cine Tech in hopes of finding a functioning camera, and with the hope that if we had to send the camera to Sony again that Abel might have sufficient influence to illicit better attention. In the meantime we had bookings for the camera, so we had plenty of opportunity for real world field tests under different kinds of shooting scenarios. We really wanted to make each camera work, perhaps more than we reasonably should have. If you’ve spent any time working with this camera, maybe you’ll know why.

In fact, on our first visit to Abel there happened to be a Sony rep there. We demonstrated the problem present with the new cameras, then demonstrated its absence in Abel’s floor model. His response was honest, but I was amazed to hear him say, in effect, what do you expect? Their Cine Alta division is manufacturing a $9000 camera, you can’t be surprised if the manufacturing tolerances are a bit off. Maybe they’ll do a better job with the next model iteration.

After working with the new camera for a time we took it back to Abel and told them the results. They asked that we try the repair route again before another exchange, and we agreed to try it. We spoke with the tech who worked on the camera at Teaneck and he indicated that he would replace the front element in the lens. We also spoke with another Sony rep during that time and he brought up the explanation involving the 24p malfunction. Apparently this has something to do with an excess of data overwhelming the processor while zooming in 24p. Obviously he hadn’t actually tested this theory himself. And why would this lead a tech to replace a lens element? We got the camera back with Sony’s assertion that function was normal. We tested the zoom with a variety of video format settings, and it still didn’t work properly.

The staff at Abel have been very helpful and sympathetic. I don’t know what conversations might take place between a dealer and a manufacturer, but there doesn’t seem to be anything they can do. Our options seem to be either keep hoping we’ll eventually get a properly functioning camera, or we’ll just have to hand them the camera back and give up on the ex3. It’s disappointing. We really want to move forward with the ex3, but you can’t invest in a camera that makes you look incapable of executing standard camera moves.

I still can’t get over the idea that you can go out and buy a $300 video camera and it will zoom properly, but that Sony might hope to suggest that this malfunction doesn’t take the ex cameras outside the realm of fitness for purpose.

Could it be an issue to do with the rolling shutter?
Steve

At one of the Experience events someone mentioned to me the stuttering zoom. I never use the zoom rocker, only the manual zoom. So I had a go and found that yes, the EX cameras do indeed have a stuttery servo zoom. Nowt to do with rolling shutter. The servo zoom simply isn't smooth. At higher speeds it isn't noticeable, but you can't do an effective creeper zoom.

Personally, it looks and feels on my EX1 that the lens mechanism is sticking, rather than the actual servo motor acting 'lumpy'. It only seems to happen on zoom ins, and only at medium to lower speeds.

It's such a light zoom mechanism that the servo isn't really having to work hard at all. And it's probably plastic on plastic inside.

I don't own any full size cameras, but I've used lots of them and their manual zoom always feel quite a bit stiffer on 'proper' lenses. I can't get a smooth manual zoom on the EX1 because it's so light to the touch, but it's easy on 'proper' lenses.

If the mechanism was stiffer with a little more friction the zoom movement would mechanically smooth out and result in a smooth optical result. Perhaps some heavy grease carefully placed on a particular moving part would give the servo a bit more work to do, and make the zoom mechanism a little heavier/smoother?

It's apparent that it isn't related to the shutter. If you watch the zoom ring while attempting a slow zoom you can frequently see a regular, rhythmic pulsing, which suggests some sort of interaction between the electrical signal and the mechanical elements. And that also demonstrates that it isn't simply a matter of not knowing exactly where the threshold is on the rocker, as is the case with some of the smaller cameras.

Also, the problem isn't present when you put a larger eng lens on the camera. Those lenses will function just as they always do, as they bring their servo mechanism along with them. However, you can change out other ex3 lenses (from properly functioning ex3's), and the problem will stay with the camera.

Abel's floor model works pretty well. That is, you can sometimes notice slight hints of the problem, but it's functional. The cameras we've had, that can't be said about, no matter how hard we've tried to work with them. There is simply little or no control of what the zoom is doing.

Well in that case then fair enough, as someone else said you can put it down to the fact that the camera is so cheap and so you can reasonably expect it to be below par mechanically in certain areas. The optics of the supplied EX lens are really very good, and yet the whole camera is about 1/4 of the price of just a lens for an HD broadcast camera!
Steve

That's an interesting take. I don't generally expect anything i buy to be sub-par mechanically. If i did, i wouldn't buy it. What if it dropped 3 seconds of footage out of every minute? How would your interviews turn out? Are you still ahead of the game at only $9000? If i offer to pay a bit more, can i get the full minute?

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the camera to be able to zoom properly.

Yes, but for example you get better build quality with a pro Nikon than you do with a domestic one. Same with a Mercedes vs a Kia.
Steve

That's certainly true. But they all meet a certain minimum standard. Even the Kia. Maybe not everyone's work requires proper control of their zoom. Maybe it isn't an issue for you. But there is such a thing as fitness for purpose. Do you think it's unreasonable to expect the camera to zoom properly?

No, I think it's a fair point. Good luck coming up with a solution.
Just thinking, when shooting film we had zoom dampers clamped on the lenses, so giving a nice fluid (manual) zoom. Don't know if that's an option, but I think a servo zoom is so expected these days that most people would demand and (I suppose quite rightly) expect it.
Steve

Thanks Steve. I'm hopeful that we'll get it sorted out.

No compact or prosumer camera , whatever we call them, with a fixed lens is capable of a truly smooth zoom on par with lenses for 2/3" or 1/2" full size cameras. I've been saying this for ages on line and someone always replies, yes they can or its smooth on their camera. Anybody who believes this is not familiar with the true feathering, ramping, creeping, whatever you want to name it, capability of lenses for full size cameras. PD150, PD170, Z1, DVX, HVX, EX etc. none of these can achieve truly smooth zoom speed variation at slow speeds. Absolutely none can feather or ramp, that is, starting from a static frame and ramping up to the slowest zoom possible with the degree of subtlety nearly imperceptible by the average viewer. We use this sometimes to detract as little as possible from the subject in frame. And maintaining this speed or varying it, with the same subtle degree of adjustment, through three quarters of the zoom range for example, never stopping.

Most dealers are lost for an answer. The easy answer is the old you get what you pay for line, which is a convenient answer and one that completely misses the point. Most will come up with an answer to not look clueless. This should not be regarded as normal just because all these cameras suffer the same problem. This is a defect. One that they all share for as you say it does not satisfy fitness for purpose. A video camera can not be sold as or considered professional if it can't zoom properly.

The day someone opens up the so called servo module in one of these and posts comparison pictures against a lens for a full size camera is when this will be proven for the inexperienced. Or just find the explosion drawings from the service manuals. I do not think this is a manufacturing cost issue. You can find cheap stand alone lenses with proper servo. For 8k to 10k you should be able to provide a proper servo in a compact camera.

One explanation, one that might fit across the board, is that they are all electronic. That at low rocker pressure there is intermittent voltage passing through to the lens electronics. For lack of a more scientific comparison let's call the full size lens servos mechanical and the compact camera "servos" electronic. These fully electronic servo-lens interfaces are faulty through and through with all these cameras.

It has befuddled me for so long that manufacturers and users have been insensitive to this stuttering zoom plaguing compact cameras that I have given up. My solution is to avoid zooming with these cameras unless its a fast zoom with hard start and stop.

One thing is certain. No manufacturer should call their lens "mechanical" when it's pseudo mechanical.

Even the focus ring on the EX lens is controlled by a servo apparently, rather than a proper focus helical, though the action is quite nice, so much so that I didn't even realise. But yes, Max is right, these things are cheap (relatively) and there is no magic bullet, they have to cut costs somewhere and if you're not going to lose something because of it why would they make them all that way?
Steve

I'm getting my EX3 back tomorrow. It's the second time I've sent it in for the zoom sticking and stuttering at low speeds.

The camera worked fine for months when I got it, then started doing this. Sony repaired it, sent it back and it worked fine for more months, about 6. Then it started again.

Supposedly they have replaced/repaired something on the lens ... when I see the writeup I'll post it.

I don't expect a lens of this price to have the finesse of a much more expensive lens; However, when it has exhibited this behavior it renders the first 25% or so of the slow end of the range unusable. Allowing for cost it's still far short of my expectations. My Ex-1 does not do the same thing.

Are we talking about this problem happening when using only the zoom rocker on the lens itself? I haven't noticed this happening when I use it on my EX-3, but I mostly shoot on sticks and use a BeBob Zoe-EX controller. I frequently do imperceptibly slow pushes using the BeBob and it's wonderful.

It's starting to sound like a design/engineering issue with the lens's rocker assembly. Has anyone who has experienced this problem tried an external zoom controller? If the behavior is different, that tells us a lot.

I have a varizoom controller, but my camera does this whether you use the controller, the rocker or the handle zoom.

I have never noticed this problem with my EX1 slow zooms. You got me concerned so I went and double checked and did some slow creeping zooms and it's smooth as butter. Thankfully I'm not seeing this on mine.

Anyone who is able to achieve imperceptibly slow, creeping, feathering zooms with your EX1 if you can put up sample footage it would be greatly appreciated.

I got my EX3 back today and it now works. Thanks for that, Sony.

Here's what they say they did:

"Replaced lens assembly due to failure above attached notice, updated software to V1.04, checked operations. See attached notice concerning lens limitations."

Here's the notice, which looks like a form letter:

"PMWEX1/PMWEX3 Zoom Feature

The PMWEX1/PMWEX3 Zoom Speed Assignment can be set obn the Camera Set Menu.

High - Factory Default:70 Maximum Upper Limit: 99
Low - Factory Default:30 Minimum Recommended Lower Limit: 10

Lower-range adjustments below 10 may not operate smoothly due to the individual characteristics of the Lens or Operating Environment.

Both the PMWEX1 and PMWEX3 are equipped with a high quality, high definition Fujinon 14x Zoom Lens specifically designed for these Camcorders. The included lens offers an exceptional cost/performance ratio, with a variety of versatile functions functions to control Zoom, Focus, and Iris, giving the User a high level of operational control for an optimum shooting experience.

Many creative Videographers sometimes prefer additional options for maximum versatility. To address this, utilizing it's newly developed "EX mount" interchangeable lens system, the PMWEX3 allows a variety of 1/2" type HD lenses available from several major manufacturers to be used with the Camcorder via the included ACM-18 lens adaptor."

The rest lists the lenses and the 2/3" lens adaptor.

So, from this, my assumption is that the lenses for the EX3 are not working as well as they hoped. I'm happy they fixed mine, but I assume I have to look for another option before the current lens fails again. I have ten Sony cameras, from XDcam HD to old Betacams and various in between, and used to working with high-end lenses. I have a nice SD 1/2 Fujinon that fits the mount and looks great, despite being SD, but there's no connection to the camera so no power zoom or any auto functions.

And, yes, I have been able to do very smooth zooms with nice feathered ins and outs when the supplied EX3 lens is working correctly.

Best,
John

To continue those thoughts:

1. The lenses they refer to in the note are over $11K. In this economy at this point that's not really an option.

2. Fujinon makes a wide angle for the EX-3 that's about $4K, so that's an option. It is, however, a similar design to the one that comes on the camera, and might be subject to the same issues.

3. So for $8-9K I could buy another whole EX-3 and reasonably expect to have one here and working while the other is off getting its lens repaired. That would give me 2 EX3s and 1 EX1, so three perfectly matching cameras, which is helpful for a couple of clients, and for less money than a completely reliable lens.

All these, of course, involve spending money.
I haven't seen this problem with the EX1 lens, btw.

And last thought: I tried to get Sony to let me send in just the lens. If they'll do that then I can use another lens I have on the camera, with the supplied adaptor, and not lose the use of it. That's the best solution, as far as I'm concerned.

I've tried creep/ramp/feather zooming with probably 5 different EX1s over a period of a year from different batches and about 3 different EX3s. None were able to do it. Because I have never seen it from using all the popular compact cameras I can't believe anybody saying online that these cameras can do this. I'm coming from a long career in broadcast so I can create a zoom slow enough that even a pro would have to do a double take on to see the zoom, on a professional lens. If you are able to do this with your EX1 please post a sample. I have an EX1. Please believe me when I say I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong.

the floor model at Abel works pretty well. you can see that it isn't perfectly smooth, but it's possible to work with it. the cameras we've had have been dramatically worse.

thanks for posting that John. that letter is really discouraging. and disappointing... and, and....

i don't get that they could acknowledge the malfunction and suggest that they're not responsible for it. on what basis? don't sell the body with a lens if you don't intend for it to work.

we tried one of the wide lenses on our camera while we were at Abel. it was only slightly better. there's some indication that the problem isn't entirely a function of a bad lens. in some cases where we swapped ex3 lenses on different ex3's, the malfunction generally stayed with the camera, not the lens.

I remembered that I have a standard Fujinon 1/2 zoom that came on my ten or so year old dvcam. Tried it on the Ex3, and it works beautifully. Zoom control works, and works with a standard Fuji zoom controller. No other functions work electronically, but power zoom works perfectly.

I shot some tests and I can't see a bit of difference in quality between this SD lens and the HD lens that comes on the camera. I shot all day with it today, the footage looks great, and I can zoom as slowly as I like.

So we'll see ... some sort of solution, at least.

The knurled ring is actually the drive gear. Are you keeping the slots clean?
Mine (EX1) zooms very smoothly even at 5, using the handle zoom.

I think most of us are pretty clear on what the lens components are. The problem is that the lens itself (or the camera interface, granted) seems to have "issues". Again, my Ex1 hasn't shown the issue but the Ex3 has, and I've had to send the lens in twice for replacement/repair. Now, if the more expensive Fujinon lens I'm using starts to do the same thing, that'll point to the camera. But when Sony returned my Ex3 this time they had replaced the lens mechanism (they were not really clear on what they replaced on it, and I hadn't tried to mark or otherwise identify the whole lens) and said nothing about the camera itself.

I get good results from my stock lens on my EX-3.

I am getting very bad stutters from my Fuji EX-3 W/A lens.

My original EX1 which I received in Dec 2007 had this issue. In Feb 2008 Sony replaced with a new EX1 and I can get smooth as silk zoom down to the "2" setting. I think it's hit and miss like the EX3. Apparently they were more willing to deal with this as an issue in Feb 2008.

They told me that they tried replacing the lens only and that didn't fix it so they replaced the entire camera. This would mean it's the lens/camera combination and the variation in hitting this sweet spot is so small that Sony can't control the manufacturing process to that level of precision.

Based on what I've posted on this issue in the past I don't believe anyone saying they can get smooth zooms out of these cameras until I see supporting footage. Can't help to think that people are referring to something different than I. I've tried to explain it in different ways but it may not be possible to put it in words I guess. Although, those with broadcast experience should know exactly what I mean so I can't understand when some of them say they get these feathered zooms. I've used many different fixed lens cameras in this category since the DVX100 and none of them have been capable of feathering or creeping. I guess someday I'll have to post footage myself from a detachable pro lens compared to a fixed lens to illustrate.

This is a password protected video on Vimeo
Password is
zoom

Not shot under ideal conditions and my hand shook the camera very slightly.
Z1 to Z99
Zoom speed set to 2
Obviously using the top zoom "button"
Took about 1:20 to go from start to finish.

zoom is smooth to my eye and has been when I used it for shoots that way.

I password protected it because this is for you folks and not the ""public of course.

Craig, thanks so much for posting that! For what it is it's pretty smooth to my eye too and fine if that's what the shot needs. But it is much, much faster than the type of zoom I'm talking about.

Rough approximation, around 70% reduction in speed may be in the area of what I'd call a "creep" or others describe as "imperceptible to the average eye". The zoom you performed also doesn't show feathering or ramping at the beginning and end of the zoom. Of course this is not operator based but as I've said before I believe fixed lens compact cameras do not have this capability. To say again, I would really love to be proven flat out wrong because I would love this in a compact camera.

Max, that's about bottom speed for the EX1. Some can't even get it that slow. No feathering though. I might be able to setup an "A to B" zoom which has a supposed ramp but the ramp doesn't behave like an operator controlled feather on a larger camera/lens.

Key though is that what clearly doesn't happen is a stuttering zoom which is what this thread was originally about.

Yes I agree with you that's good for speed 2 on the handle. I don't think our EX is that smooth on speed 2.

As far as stuttering, to me it's not even in the realm of conversation unless we're talking about a creeping zoom. Zoom stuttering at a faster than creep speed basically would be a non-functional zoom to me.

Zooms at the speed 2 range for EX can be hit or miss for these cameras but they are definitely possible, although made impractical by their unreliability in different cameras. Interesting suggestion for shot transition. I doubt it would do what we're talking about but would be fun to try.