PMW 350 Lens, low light, noise etc etc
 

Got my 350 today. Generally very impressed. It's like an EX3 and DSR450 mated.

Did some very quick tests next to my DSR450. It looked to be about the same sensitivity but I have a feeling my 450 lens was faster so maybe the 350 would edge it with the same lens.

On a full HD monitor, there was very little noise even at 12dB. 18dB would be usable for super low light doc work.

The kit lens is VERY good for the money. Sharp in the centre and seemed to maintain it to the edges very well. Very low CA. However the zoom servo is a little jerky. Not as bad as some EX1/3s but just noticeable. The zoom servo is also a lot slower than I am used to - more like a pro lens than a broadcast lens. I compared it to my Broadcast SD lens and there was a notable improvement. Mainly in CA and in the corners.

First job tomorrow (!) so will post more when I have time.

This may vary from lens to lens. Mine seems exceedingly smooth, totally un-jerky from the slowest (and it is slow) zoom speeds.

The sensitivity is great on the 350. Stock lens is ok but not as sharp as a few other lens I have tested so far.

My zoom is very smooth on the lens servo and with a remote. Not a single jump from very slow to fast.

First working flight with the camera tomorrow which will be interesting. Also wind chill expected to be -40 F during travel to and from the job and -10 F shooting the job. 5 hrs (two tanks) so a good check on the camera in cold conditions.

Stock lens seems plenty sharp, wide and zoomed. The biggest issue it has in my observation, is flare. I have the flare correction turned off. It shows up in a lot of shots. Less notable than the flare but still significant is pincushion distortion at the wide end.

Tom the stock lens is nice but have you compared it against a HJ, HA, or ZA lens?

I have not noticed the flare but that could change after todays shoot. Are you saying it is better with flare correction on or off?

The stock lens has no problem resolving all the detail. If an expensive lens looks better that's not surprising, but flare is the issue and only complaint I have about the lens. I've never seen worse flare, almost begs the question of whether the optics are coated.

I have not tried with the flare correction switched on, I turned it off the first day. For sure, they put it on the menu because it needs help. I'll give it a try but was just trying to minimize the processing by switching it off. I'm usually not much bothered by flare, but it is excessive here. Shoot into backlight or toward a low sun.

Wow Tom you are right about the flare. Today we flew for 5 hrs with 95% of the flight having proper lighting. But on the way back I set the pilot to shoot some shots with backlight and the sun was low.

After the flight I looked in to all the flare settings and I don't know where to start.

With proper light and a nice flat sun today we did get some stunning shots. This is a big step up from using the EX1 in the helicopter.

Did you have a gyro? Aerial shots are so beautiful, yet I think they are surely harder to do well then one would imagine. I would like to hire a chopper but am pretty sure I'd be disappointed if I tried to do this.

Yes we have about $60k invested in our custom gyro system not including the helicopter upgrades and special gear for the camera. I shoot about 60 days a year from helicopters and have been doing this for a long time.

Just renting gyros and going up will not produce high quality footage. It takes a very nice stabilization system (not gyro shoulder mount) and flying with the same pilot for a long time to develop a system that produces high quality footage. I see footage all the time that has been shot even some from stabilization manufactures that is not well done. There are teams doing a great job but as with any shooting it takes a lot of funds and commitment between shooter and pilot.

When I go to the studio and shoot or on location I would not call it easy it is just a different set of skills. All fun and I feel lucky to have grow up in a family of pilots where flying has just been a part of my life along with sailing and shooing on the water.

I am in the process of testing/buying a lens for the 350 to use in the helicopter not just to solve the flare but for higher quality optics and other features. Yesterday is one of the few days I will fly with the stock lens, just too much invested in each clip.

As for the flare you are correct it can be bad. Do you know how to go about all of the flare settings?

One other thought on the 350 stock lens is the auto focus. Not that I recommend auto focus I do not. I think manual focus should be used all the time!

I tested this feature side by side with the EX1 in the studio and in the field. The EX1 out performed the 350 in auto focus mode, for focus only. So then I went back to the studio and reset the backfocus on the 350. Still the EX1 out performed the 350 in autofocus mode, again for focus only. The 350 drifts around even on a locked target. You might not see it on the camera but on the studio monitor it was apparent.

But in manual focus the 350 lens is very nice to focus and sharper image with a lower noise picture against the EX1 with both in manual focus.

Haven't used auto focus much, I do notice more of the shallow depth of field difference than I was expecting compared to the 1/2 inch sensors on the EX1.

Yes, there is a significantly lower noise floor, can really see this in low light, and also a more accurate rendering of subtle shades of color in all light, more organic textures.

I spent a long time developing picture profiles in the EX1 that I was happy with, the PMW350 is at once more forgiving of these settings, took very little effort to get a 24p profile I liked, although my 60i profile I'm still adjusting.

I have not used auto focus just tested it.

Agree the shallow depth of field is a big difference and makes you think more about ND and iris combo depending on the shot.

Are you willing to share your Paint settings?

I am using Alister's with your detail settings. I mostly shoot 30p. Since Alister has his posted on his XDCAM site I don't think it would be a problem posting here, but I will check first. Clips seem nice with natural color, nice detail in the blacks, and great latitude.

I will happily post them, although they are basic. I should be able to get this done by later tonite, on the way out the door to the ranch, cam and tripod in hand. Back soon.

Thanks Tom have a great shoot.

These are the Scene Files I came up withwhen using the demo PMW-350. I'm still waiting for mine to arrive (Grrrr....).

File One: Aimed at giving high latitude with deep almost crushed blacks and the image well saturated and slightly warmed up.

Detail: ON Aperture: ON Detail Level: -15 Aperture Level: -10 Detail Frequency: +24

Matrix: ON Matrix (User): ON Matrix (Preset): ON Matrix (Prst) Sel: 6

R-G 1, R-B 12, G-R 2, G-B 11, B-R 0, B-G 0

Gamma: ON Gamma Table: STD Gam Table (STD): 5

Black Gamma: ON Black Gamma Range: HIGH Master BLK Gamma -24

Knee: ON Knee Point: 85.2 Knee Slope: -14

White Clip: ON White Clip Level: 109.0 (If will be graded) 104 (if not graded or for broadcast)

Master Black: -2

File Two: Aimed at giving maximum latitude with deep but not crushed blacks and vivid slightly warmed up colours.

Matrix: ON Matrix (User): ON Matrix (Preset): OFF Matrix (Prst) Sel: 1

R-G 8, R-B 10, G-R 0, G-B 15, B-R 5, B-G 6

Gamma: ON Gamma Table: HG Gam Table (HG): 4

Black Gamma: ON Black Gamma Range: H.MID Master BLK Gamma -28

White Clip: ON White Clip Level: 109.0 (If will be graded) 104 (if not graded or for broadcast)

Master Black: -3

Detail: ON Aperture: ON Detail Level: -15 Aperture Level: -10 Detail Frequency: +24

Thank you Alister

Paint Menu Settings
 

Switch Status > Gamma : On
Black Gamma : Off
Matrix : On
Knee : On
White Clip : On
Detail : On
Aperture : On
Flare : Off
Test Saw : Off

Black > Master Black : -4

Gamma > Gamma Select : 5 R709
Gamma Category : STD

Knee > Knee Point : 90%

White Clip > White Clip : 108%

Detail > Level : -15
H/V Ratio : +35
Frequency : +25
Knee Aperture : Off
White Limit : +20
Black Limit : +20
V Detail Creation : R+G

Aperture > Aperture : On

Skin Detail > Skin Detail : Off

Matrix > Matrix : On
Preset Matrix : On
Preset Select : 2
User Matrix : Off

Multi Matrix > Multi Matrix : On
Axis : B, B+, MG-, MG, MG+, R, R+, YL-,
YL+, G-, G, G+, CY, CY+, B-, (All)
Hue : 0 (for ea axis above)
Saturation : +5 (for ea axis above)

V Modulation > V Modulation : On

Low Key Saturation > Low Key Saturation : Off

Noise Supression > Noise Supression : On

*********************************************************

Regarding Knee Point, I have zebra2 on, stripes set to 100%. If I see zebra stripes in the viewfinder, I will adjust down the knee point, usually in combination with increasing knee slope, and knee saturation if the saturated area has color.

Example, knee point +80, slope +15.

But knee settings just depend on what type of detail you are trying to pull from the highlight, texture of clouds, folds of white silk drapes on a window, etc.

Regarding User Matrix, I have no information that points to the need for adjusting the tints of primary or complimentary colors, so user Matrix is switched off.

What I do prefer, is to slightly saturate all the colors equally, this is done in the Multi-Matrix. You have to set the saturation setting individually for each axis, unlike the EX1 where the saturation setting affects all the axis globally.

I arrived at the ranch at twilight, the elevation here is 8,360 ft, the terrain is up and down, rocky, steep hills overlooking a canyon, some creek draws, rock outcroppings, scattered tree cover, ponderosa pine, pinion, aspens, scattered snow cover, drifted in some places several feet deep, in other places ground cover is exposed, windblown and rugged.

No power, no utilities, wireless broadband only, and operating from generator power and propane.

There's sometimes opportunity for photographing elk, deer, black bear, coyote, eagles, turkeys, depending on how quiet you can be to avoid disturbing them, and luck.

I've photographed and shot videos here on many occasions, know what to expect and how to compose, expose and frame it.

But with no surprises, what stunned me was how different and awesome the PMW350 handled extremely difficult lighting. Strong sun on the horizon, deep shadows, and white ground cover, I know not to expect award winning shots, but these blew me away.

I had the gain locked on -3 db, ND2-3, shutter off, iris on auto varying between F1.9 to F5.6. As the cam panned and tracked my dog running into the shadows, emerging into the twilight sun, disappearing into the shrubs and ground cover, from shadow to light, it's jaw dropping how well it seamlessly tracked the changing light conditions without drawing attention to itself, and all the while preserving rich, accurate colors, shadow and highlight details. The auto focus also did a very good job of staying locked on the subject. I set the peaking on color, the color red, making it easy to monitor the auto focus, and quickly catch it if it started drifting the wrong way which it seldom did. In that sense, it was no better or different than my EX1, but I observed no particular problem with it either.

This is high definition on a higher level than I've been treated to before, but corroboration to what Alister saw at the airshow, that the PMW350 seems exceptionally gifted at managing tough lighting conditions. I'm no stranger to getting beautiful shots out here, but not in this type of light. This time of year you often end up with flat, lifeless color, noisy shadows, and lost detail. But of particular note with the PMW350, was the apparent color accuracy to the light, you could just see the golden rays of sunshine, no surprise to see them like this in the fall colors, but the dead of winter, when it's white out? That was a shocker. I had previously manually white balanced on the snow. The ATW white balance seems only slightly more trustworthy (if at all) than my EX1, so I avoid using it.

This cam will handle nature photography in difficult light situations with aplomb.

Tom your ranch sounds magical with such a lovely description.

I love that area and visit my friend in Longmont a few times a year to shoot and mountain bike the front range and beyond.

Glad to hear you are experiencing the same positive results I have been finding with this amazing camera. I have not tried shutter off or auto iris so it is nice to hear you are having positive experience with both.

I have had problems with auto focus but it was in really challenging conditions.

Agree the white balance controls could not be easier a real treat.

This camera makes me want to just go shoot.

There is a 1 stop drop in lattitude at -3db. Given how quiet the camera is anyway I would not use -3db unless it is essential.

Still here until noon-thirty Monday, wireless internet very spotty, haven't been able to log on much. I guess that's probably a good thing in the grand scheme.

I will try 0 db gain for the extra latitude in the morning per Alister's recommendation.

I did notice a slight episode of the zoom stutter at the very slowest speed using the Libec zoom controller. The temperature was fairly cool, 30-35F, don't know if that was a factor.

Just viewing the video, I do prefer the look at the slightly softer sharpness setting of Detail > Level -15 versus -8 that I had derived from the Imatest tests.

No luck with the wildlife, still have one more chance in the morning. Just some coyotes calling. Have to be quiet, sshhh...., one click and a whole herd of elk will vanish. The conditions are optimum otherwise.

Finally got my hands on a 350 again. I have been playing some more with the scene files, but in particular the detail settings. I have been looking closely at edges and fine detail and I think the standard aperture setting is causing a bit of "ringing" on fine edges and textures. So this is what have set currently, aiming for a natural look, sharp but not obviously so.

All other settings are default, except Gamma HG 4.

Detail Level -16
H/V Ratio +20
Frequency +35
White Limit +35
Black Limit +20

Aperture -30

This is a work in progress. Next I want to take a close look at the knee and maybe using a fixed DCC point for high latitude with the standard gammas.

The detail settings, level, freq, HV Ratio, blk limit, wht limit you posted are close to what I am using on the PMW350 now, but have not yet moved the aperture setting. I want crisp detail that is not grainy, and without halo'd outlines, so I would agree that upping the number for detail, also blk limit and wht limit is moving in the right direction, but I would be careful about dropping too low on the aperture and losing the fine texture within grassy fields and tree foliage containing real detail in scenic panoramas shot at wide angles that needs to be preserved. It's worth a try, yet I know on my EX1 I was able to go to sigficantly higher settings on detail (+65), and Blk/Wht Lim (+75) to reduce the halo'd outlines (overshoot ringing), with no adverse effect on noise levels or graininess. I have not ventured that far up the scale on the PMW350 so far. We're saying about the same thing by agreeing that detail settings are a work in progress. I want to be sure that reducing aperture really knocks down the ringing on fine edges. It seems to me it should not. I want to avoid turning grassy panoramas and distant tree foliage into amorphous shapes, I want to preserve the crispness, but not so crisp it appears grainy. Please continue to share your findings.

I can confirm that my lens does suffer some stuttering when zooming (particularly out) at slow speeds. CA is mostly controlled, however there is red/blue CA visible mostly on horizontal edges of bright white patches like snow. I think this would be more of a longitudinal CA that affects more out of focus areas, since fringing around edges in-focus seems to be absent. LCAs are said not to be correctable. Whether this originates in the kit lens or the prism block, I have no way of knowing, do not own any other 2/3 inch lenses.

Production or pre-production?

Tom, Alister,

Thanks for posting your Paint setting updates, On the road shooting but am exciting to look at the new options when I get back home next week.

I do agree with Tom about keeping the detail on the higher end for background footage.

Alister nice to hear you finally have your camera. Did you buy one with the stock lens or are you using your other glass?

Not the Detail "Level", I'm with Alister it should be -15 (or -16 as his preference). Higher settings for frequency yes, wht clipping and blk clipping yes higher settings okay there too. The one I'm not sure about, Aperture -30, I'm not saying Alister is wrong there. I haven't tried it, however I am anxious to try it, but I may start a little more cautiously because I don't want to lose the fine detail inside grassy landscapes shot at wide angles, or the fine detail within foliage of tree leaves shot from afar. Nor do I know that I would lose that detail.

But what's good is I think is there's a lot of agreement, that certainly oversharpened images ruin the perception of reality. One of the good newsbits concerning the PMW350, is that the detail that it does render I would characterize as "effortless." In other words, my EX1 is also a very sharp, finely detailed camera. I spent a lot of time with the detail circuit tuning in the look I wanted. That look, detailed yet natural, just seems to come a little easier from the PMW350. So effortless, there is no reason to accept any trace of ugly haloing, outlining or ringing in the image. It should be tuned out, and the natural highly detailed 1080i/p images should flourish because this cam makes it so effortless in the fundamental sense.

Tom understand I was writing on my iphone while off the grid and did not explain myself well.

I have been using detail at -15 and the same similar with the other settings. Aperture setting is new to me so I am counting on the input from both of you to help guide me. Agree I do not want to loose the fine detail inside grassy landscapes or foliage type of shots. This would cause problems while shooting aerials and make the shot not useable.

My EX1 has had haloing, outlining or ringing in the image while shooting aerials at time so it would be nice to have a setting that helps to eliminate this issue with the 350 since this is now my primary camera.

This is a followup post to an observation I had about my kit lens having a bit of stuttering when zooming out at slow speeds.

Today I unlocked the zoom ring from the servo motor by moving the lever from the servo position to manual, then turning the ring about 90 degrees, and then re-engaging the gears by moving the lever back to the servo position.

Thereafter, it seemed like the stuttering was greatly reduced if not eliminated. Perhaps at some point, someone else may be able to confirm this result.

Is it as much as a whole stop? Have you measured this?
Cheers,
Steve

Dropping the gain from 0db to -3db also drops Dynamic Range with Hypergamma 4 from 460% to 325% according to Sony's literature. I have not measured the actual drop but it's certainly noticable.

Edit: Thinking about it it should only be a 1/2 stop drop. 6db being 1 f-stop.

Cool, 1/2 stop sounds more reasonable. I know vaguely the science behind (thanks to a previous post by Alister I think!), and always thought of it as present but minor, just enough to make it worth sticking at 0db unless there is a big reason why not, as there is on the Varicam as it's not as noiseless as the Sonys it seems (from personal observation and comments from others). Actually from my observations on Varicam and PDW700, the Varicam has dynamic range to burn and the 700 is ultra quiet. In fact is's amazing to hear that the PMW350 is even quieter.
Steve

I shoot the standard 709 gamma with knee but the issue I have with 0 db boils down to the fact that the benefit of -3db lower noise is evident in EVERY image (if slight), whereas the benefit of 1/2 stop more latitude will only be evident in high contrast scenes. Using the histogram in combination with 100% zebras gives me the tools to recognize when it would be beneficial to switch to 0 db for the extra latitude, or alternatively preserving the low noise of -3 db for the situations that do not.

Tom, I'm absolutely amazed at that. Especially taking into account the comments about how noise free the 350 is even at 6 or 9 db. I never had the slightest hint of noise at 0db in the PDW700 - and I do look!
A real surprising find.
Steve

I will qualify my statement then that the benefit of -3db 'in theory should be' evident in every scene. It's not my intent to mischaracterize or draw comparisons to the PDW700.

It's tough to see noise, it's tough to recognize 1/2 stop of latitude without equipment.

Do you understand my logic? If a scene only has 5 stops of latitude, why not -3 db, whether noise is visible or not?

It's a valid point that if a scene has restricted latitude then negative gain will give a noise advantage. I guess I'm too used to shooting in challenging conditions and forget that some lucky people get to control their scenes :0)

I would not characterize the PDW-700 as noise free, it's certainly one of the least noisy cameras on the market, but there is still some noise.

I do understand and it is good logic. I guess coming from a film background I'm diehard in my view that video has terrible latitude and needs all the help it can get! They are a million times better than they used to be though of course. What if you low latitude scene suddenly has a flash of brightness (subject turns towards a light source maybe), I'd prefer to be safe re latitude - as long as there was no noticeable noise penalty (ie noticeable on screen rather than measurable).
Steve