Zebra setting puzzle
 

The default setting for the zebras is 70% (Z1) and 100% (Z2). Normally I don't have both zebras showing, but had occasion to want Z1 at 60% and Z2 at 100. Obviously at some time I've adjusted Z2 to less than 100. Now when I set Z1 to a value, I find that Z2 adopts the same value (and vice-versa). Set Z1 to 60, go to Z2, it is also at 60. Change that to 100, and find that Z1 is now 100. Am I missing a trick? Nothing in the book to suggest any other procedure.

You're right that both the menu and the manual are not very clear about this. But in reality, it's very simple:

- zebra 2 can only be set at 100%. It will show on areas above 100 IRE
- zebra 1 can be set to any value. If set to "Z1" %, it will show on areas with IRE value between Z1-10% and Z1+10%.

Yes, that's the sort of thing I understood, except that you have the order inverted (Z2 is 100). However I can set both, but not to independent values.

You're right Serena - I confused the names; probably because I have Zebra 2 on most of the times (so it became "number one" to me :)). Have corrected my post accordingly.

Zebra 1 I only engage when filming people - otherwise, it just clutters the display.

But I still don't get what your problem is - other than from the looks of the menu, one can indeed think they both can be set to some (independent) values.

Well, there isn't any point in having both zebras set to the same value, but I cannot set them otherwise. When I change one, the other changes itself to the same value. I cannot set them to different values. I'd be very happy to have zebra 2 at 100 and be able to manipulated Z1, but what ever I do to one happens to the other.

Serena,

In the Display menu, Zebra branch, I have two items:

Zebra (1,2, or BOTH)
Zebra1 level (selectable)

So frankly, I don't see how you can change the level of Zebra2 (it's 100 by design).

Or do you mean that where Z2 actually displays in the VF depends on your Zebra1 level setting? If so, this would evidently be some malfunctioning...

BTW, I'm still on 1.11.

Serena, I re-read your OP, and the above statement caught my attention - just how did you manage to do that?

I bet what you indeed have done was adjust Z1 with Z2 not being displayed, and
then thought you were displaying the (adjusted) Z2 while in fact, it was Z1.

The two zebras differ considerably in the pattern they display - the stripes are at 90deg angle, and have different line "font".

The patterns are indeed different and by setting "both" I see both. But both set to the same value (60, 100, 80, whatever I set). Or I can see Z1 or Z2 as I wish, but again I cannot set them individually to different values. I have no difficulty in changing Z2. This isn't much problem under most situations and I presume this has been the situation for some time without my being aware of it. Maybe I should return the camera to "default"

The simplest way to check this is select 75% bars and select Both Z1 & Z2, then set Zebra level 1 to 70%. Now you will see both zebras No.2 on the white and No.1 on the yellow. Whilst there reduce Zebra level and Zebra 2 never moves but 1 will appear in the next colour down and so on. It just does not seem possible to adjust No.2

Not possible to adjust Z2? Are you saying that its effective level doesn't change no matter how it is set? Or are you saying it cannot be adjusted? If the latter, then since I have no trouble adjusting the value in the menu, telling me I can't do what I can do is a bit odd, because I wouldn't have posted the question. However apparently the same "problem" is found in the EX1R, where both Zs change simultaneously but Z2 operationally remains at 100 no matter what value is shown in the menu. I'll check this for the EX1 when I get back to the camera.

OK, the simple answer is that no matter what value is set in the menu for Z2, it is fixed at 100. So the value shown in the menu is that for Z1 only, even though that value is also given against Z2. So while it seems one is changing Z2, actually it is Z1 alone that is being adjusted. The menu should not show any value against Z2 other than 100, but it does. Thank you those who were trying to convey this. It was an EX1R user, disconcerted by the same issue, who provided the clear statement and now I've confirmed that the EX1 exhibits the same behaviour.

Serena,

Yes, this is what I was trying to convey.

The menu structure is not straightforward and may be confusing, but this is why I added to one of my posts that I'm on the 1.11 firmware - here, it's clearly Zebra1 only that can be assigned a level.

This might be displayed differently in EX1-R, or in another EX1 firmware.

Thanks Piotr. My firmware is 1.20 and the EX1R shows the same misleading menu.

Serena

I am working with the EX3 Firmware 1.10. I am saying it cannot be adjusted. Just the way Peter has stated. You would have good feature if you could adjust them separately. As prefer my No.2 zebra at 95%.

Good luck with your investigations.

I don't know if this is redundant, but on my EX1 v1.20 I have the option to view:
Zebra 1 or Zebra 2 or Both when Zebras are turned on. This is "Zebra Select" in the Zebra Menu. According to my camera I can only adjust Zebra 1 hence "Zebra1 Level" in the menu.

As Piotr said, the menu is confusing. When go into the menu, zebras, you can "Zebra Select: 2", and below that you have "Zebra Level: 70". Now you can click "70" and change that value. My error was in assuming that this referred to Z2, since that was what I'd selected. So once one knows that the value refers only to Z1, then no problem. By any simple interpretation Z2 can be adjusted (no matter what the manual says). Just bad menu labelling.

Alister's explanation:

XDCAM-USER.com Setting BOTH zebras on an XDCAM EX, very confusing!

- Don

I hate to say it, but I don't think Alister is correct on this one. Like Piotr mentioned earlier, ONLY Zebra 1 can be adjusted, hence "Zebra1 Level" in the Zebra Menu.

Dear oh dear. I hate to say that communication is often surprisingly difficult. I suggest you read my words a little more carefully. Or maybe I should test Alistair's method before saying that!

Just tested Allister's method on my EX1R, firmware 1.0, connected to monitor and waveform.

Any change in any order changes the setting for Zebra 1. Zebra 2 stays set to 100 IRE (98 IRE to be precise) regardless of any changes to the Zebra 2 setting.

I no longer have an EX1 to test.

I guess I don't read carefully either. Mr McGee wasn't supporting Alister's method, but agreeing that only Z1 can be adjusted. My checks confirm that, yet again.

It was stated previously that the Z1-stripes will appear when the exposure is +/- 10% of the set value? Can someone confirm this? Also, does that apply to Z2, meaning the stripes will appear at 90%?

Z2 appears at 100% and above, based on using the "spot metering" function.

The EX1 manual says Z1 appears in a range of +-10% of the set level. I have found this is not exactly true.

I don't often have people as the main subject, so skin tone is secondary to overall exposure. I set Z1 at 95 and get zebras from 90% to 100%. Then Z2 kicks in.

If I set Z1 at a lower value, say 75%, I get zebras from ABOUT 65% to 85%.

Pete

That's what it says in the manual, but in actuality it's +/- 5% and Z1 shows up to 109%. The range doesn't change for lower values either as suggested in the previous post.

That's a negative on Z2. It will only show 100 - 109%.

Omar, you didn't read my post correctly. I said it varied. On MY camera, I get a 10% (+-5) range if Z1 is set at 95 and a +- 10 range if Z1 is set at 75. That's why I said the manual is not accurate.

Pete

Hi Pete
I didn't misread it, that's why I said It doesn't vary.
I can't comment on what you get on your camera, but a range of 20% (65 - 85), is a bit steep when you're trying to get around 75%. Maybe if you checked again you'd find different results. Although all cameras are individual, I doubt it's to that extent unless it's a flaw in either your camera or mine.
In my case it's always +/- 5% from 50 - 104% with the ceiling at 109% regardless.

WTF? you two are confusing the %$#& out of us/me.

The EX1 manual states that Z1 zebras are shown at levels that are plus or minus 10% of the set value. If the manual is correct, then setting the level at 70 would show zebras in all areas of the image with exposure levels from 60% to 80%.

What I have found with MY camera is not quite the same. If I set Z1 at 95%, then I see zebras at anything above 90% - plus or minus 5% of the set value. (Measured with the indicator in the middle of the screen. Off the top of my head I can't remember the name of the display setting and I don't have my camera with me.)

However, if I set Z1 at 75, I see zebras at levels from 65% to 85%, just like the manual says.

So the manual is right some of the time and wrong some of the time, at least in regards to the functioning of MY camera.

Thinking out loud, I wonder if gamma settings affect the zebra display. I usually use Cine 1 which really hammers on highlights. Maybe that's why my camera shows zebras in a 10% range in the top end. I don't know.

The short answer is to use the exposure level function to check your camera. What's the percentage exposure level in areas showing Z1 zebras? Then you'll know what the zebras are showing you.

Pete

yeah, and the Focal Plane marked on the side of the camera can be off by 10 inches to more than 18" depending where your focus is set at. No matter how many times you calibrate Back Focus you're measurements will be off.

Sony has proven to us that no one is perfect. thanks a lot for the reminder Sony!!!!!!