I just got my T1 and I'm not convinced that I can accept a definite green tint over an occasional IR problem. I shoot mainly outdoors and am looking for a "solution" that offers the fewest compromises. I've also considered the Schneider Platinum 1/2 stop IR filter but I haven't read enough about to be sold on it as being superior to the T1.

Further to previous post
 

I shot some samples... and fluffed one of them up (the one wb'ed for outdoors but shot under tungsten lighting).

The unlabeled image in black and white is Infrared only... shot using a modified DSLR (has no IR-cut filter) plus a Tiffen 87 IR-only filter. The only *true* black in the image is the cover on the one lens adapter.

All the socks look black to the human eye.

The problem seems to get worse with an increase in gain.

THAT'S IT.....
BRAVO.....
Better a little brown, than a GREEN picture.
This filter is only for someone amateur....
No one pro can accept this GREEN S**.

Giannis, what a strange comment regarding "someone amateur". The filter can be very helpful in a lot of cases, and perhaps.
No one pro can accept this BROWN S***
I have certainly found it helpful on a number of occasions, in a hall full of black suits, half of which stick out like a sore thumb because of the brown tinge.
It has nothing to do with amateur or pro, its just an aid to the inherant problem of EX cams, and used with good judgement, it is an enormous help.

Mr Professional
 

Haha, yes Mr professional.

Colin Rowe wrote :
Every tool has it's purpose... I think the filter should only be used when there's severe IR contamination... like in a theatre. It may not be that useful outdoors, although IR can also cause green leaves to look brown on plants. If you notice it, use it. We're going to be shooting a stage production very soon with about 7 seven cameras... that'll allow me to test the effectiveness of the filter in a stage scenario.

I seem to have made a mistake earlier about white balance being only red/blue... white balancing does seem to reduce the green tint quite a bit.

-edit-

Below is an example of where the filter will help... both shots were taken under Tungsten lighting (Redhead) and white balanced. They're just normal black cotton trousers. Synthetic materials are particularly bad...

If the T1 IS going to remain part of my kit then I think I need to return the 77 mm version and go for a 4 x 5.65. I don't see dismantling everything should the need to use the T1 arise. I'd much rather just slide it in.

Wait a sec. Let me rethink my last post...

If the issue is made worse with the use of ND, I shoot mostly outdoors and will therefore USE ND, then instead of plunking down another $300 on a 4 x 5.65 T1, maybe I SHOULD try the Schneider Platinum IRND 4 x 5.65.

In theory (I wish I was able to find more to read about its ACTUAL use) this should eliminate the risk of the red issue and the Platinum IRND (vs. just the IR) is said to be color neutral.

With that, I'm outdoors using built-in ND, I see off-blacks, I slide in the Platinum IRND .3 and fix the blacks, retain the ND (adding another layer if I need/want it) and no green tint.

Sound like the ideal solution?

Hmm. If it IS the solution, the only place I can even find part number 68-060356 (Schneider IRND .3 4 x 5.65) is at FilmTools and they aren't expecting any until mid-August. And this seems to be the only place to get them! The rare nature of this filter is making me lose confidence in it as my "perfect plan".

Real world example T1 IR/No T1 IR ...
 

these are 2 different conferences ... both speakers are wearing black suits ... the No T1 IR filter was shot before I got the T1 and the other after. There were no complaints about the brown suit so I can say I skated on that one but it made me get that filter. The second example is with the T1 IR filter and lighting in both cases were hotel conference room tungsten lights ... T1 IR had a small spot I provided for the speaker ... 5600 K LED spot to counter balance the house lights.

No samples attached...

examples ...
 

Now, these aren't perfect examples with a identical set-up but they are real world shoots. I have consistently added 5600 K spots to counter hotel lighting to speakers and find that you can control, a bit, what the camera records. Both speakers showed up as brown suits ... hence, I added the filter on the one example.
p.s. just goes to show you that these high rollers are all wearing synthetic suits!

No examples attached in the 2nd one either (thx for updating the 1st).

Since they're not the same image and from different perspectives (and possibly different lighting) I'm not exactly sure what to look at to compare. I DO notice, however, a fading in the image with the filter on... that may perhaps be a little greenish.

examples ...
 

The situations were completely different ... but both set-ups were tungsten hotel lighting! You can nit-pick all day long on this or that difference ... I don't care. I'm providing you with examples that I have shot so that you can see the difference in real event shoots. I would love a filter that removes the IR contamination completely without any other aspect of the image being effected ... I await the day that happens!

2nd example ...
 

this example is from the same shoot as the first T1 IR filter example with the same basic problem re: synthetic black suit. Now, I have to say the background wall on that shoot had a similar tint as skin ... I like more contrast but you cannot control these situations and have to do the best you can ...

I think the shot without the filter looks better in comparison. Odd, as I've been burned as well by blacks going muddy brown. Just the light and contrast is better in the first. Bad choice of examples if you're pro filter I think.

I think the anti filter thoughts overlook the practical issues. I have a client who has thousands of staff issued with a corporate uniform that is green. My EX1 turns the corporate colour to maroon - fit a TIR filter and the clothing stays green simple as that.

I haven't noticed the excessive green even after color balancing with the T1 but I haven't used it very much. My suggestion if you have that problem is very simple. Get a Lee or Rosco color swatch book that is about 2" square and add a slight green ( 1/8 or 1/4) to the lens when color balancing. That should eliminate the problem. Or simply carry a piece of 1/8 green in your bag and use it single or doubled or whatever till you get rid of the green. Problem should be solved.

In fact mixing 1/8 green & 1/4 blue is generally my favorite way to balance anyway. The predeccessor to "Warm Cards" and still a superior system in my opinion.

Re ND:
I was one of the people testing for Tiffen on the T1 and I noticed a number of things. First although I heard alot about how you needed more IR filtration with increasing ND I didn't see it when I used the T1. It seemed to solve the problem completely in my tests. Second - ordinary ND filters vary greatly in whether or not they filter IR (actually the right term is Far Red) at all. I've noticed that every internal camera ND I tested had no Far Red problems. However in looking at Tiffen, Format, Schneider, Heliopan and B&W, only my little 82mm Heliopan and B+W filters did not have Far Red problems. With the others I could see varying far red contamination with my naked eye (often alarming amounts) - regardless of the EX-1's increasing sensitivity. Obviously video camera makers were hipper to this problem than we expected.

If the Schneider Platinum is the new one for Far Red contamination I have not used it so I can't comment. (Where's my test filter Ryan????)

So test your own filters. Look at a piece of black material by eye behind your ND filters and get a piece of green gel.

And yes color balancing in camera of course reacts to green and magenta - otherwise how would we deal with Flourescents.

Lenny Levy

Lee or Rosco color swatch book ...
 

Yep ... the best to have for color balance ... but I've found the warm cards to do the trick with regard to this filter and well ... other situations.

Help me see if I understand this right Leonard (and I may not, so please bear with me). Is the idea of white balancing through the 1/8 green a sort of "overcompensation" so that when the 1/8 green is removed the green tint of the T1 has been effectively "balanced out"?

Anthony

Yes it is a common ancient videographers trick. Warm Cards picked up on the idea and marketed it without the flexibility of mixing green and blue. Everyone I know carries a swatchbook.

In fact many Sony video cameras used to have a tendency toward green and under flourescents I would always balance through an additional green. Still like to mix a blue and green for balancing toward a nice warm look.

Lenny

Can I ask you to recommend the actual green gel you use? Rather than a swatchbook with tiny 1.5 x 2.5 swatches I think I'd like to hold up the appropriate get in front of my matte box while balancing.

Its probably slightly different name for each brand but its just the fractional green gels used to balance lights to flourescents . Lee calls it "Plus Green" . My Lee swatchbook is called "Cinematographers Edition" but its ancient. They're usually paired with the same fractions in magenta and CTO(85) and CTB. Not the same as the theatrical gels with individual numbers. Ask a lighting place if they have a swatchbook with larger square samples or just buy a piece of 1/8 if you need to then you could double it if needed. 1/8 - 1/4 should do it.

Anthony and all;

We here at Schneider are working very hard to produce the Platinum IRND filters. In our quest to make the perfect IRND filter (ie, truely neutral gray and cuts IR on most all cameras), we have had to delay production a couple times. We do not yet have an ETA on these filters but hope to have them available by the end of this year.

All patience will be well rewarded when these filters are available and we know that we will have the finest IRND as well as ND replacement available. We beleive that these new IRND filters will replace NDs as they have no properties other than a slight increase in price that would warrant using a regular ND.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Good news Ryan. I assume you will be making them in the various standard sizes for matteboxes.

And a big thank you Ryan, for dealing with my warranty issue a few months back. I was impressed by how quickly it was resolved. In this business there is a lot of value to a company, like Schneider/Century, that stands behinds it's products and resolves issues with their clients in real time.

-Andrew Stone