Cheaper alternative to Nano for EX1 ??
 

Enter The Ninja


Its only $ 1,000 USD so that's a lot cheaper than the Nano, BUT it only accepts HDMI not HD-SDI….. Does that mean it records in HDV quality only ?

nice @ 2 grand cheaper than the nano.

Says pro res which is definitely nicer than hdv. Just curious about the hdmi-in quality-wise. Do camcorders really output 10bit from the hdmi? Also amusing they are marketing it to dslr owners when its a well known fact dslrs can't output useable video from the hdmi out. Now if my 150 would benefit from this, I'd be all over it as it would save tons of transcoding time since I go to pro res for editing. Would it be better quality than the internal avchd encode the camera does? Hmmmmmmm! Might have to run a test with the camera running into my Matrox via hdmi vs same image recorded in camera then transcoded. I know it's not exactly the same as the ninja but might provide a clue.

ProRes? ProRes! Why ProRes? Do these guys think the only computers being used are made by Apple? Why don't they address the other 95% of the available market? It's too bad; it looks like a nice unit - but a useless nice unit to me.

jim...what nle do you use?

Wow, what would you have them use? AVI? Don't know what NLE you use but I deliver pro res to a bunch of friends on Windows systems who use a variety of software. They have no issues.

I would admit that using ProRes may limit it for some users. However, I would say that you are a
bit 'off' with other statements. For example, the 'other 95%' argument, may be true in the
general business world, but is definitely NOT true in the postproduction area. Not to get into a
platform war, as I will be the first to admit that both Mac and PC's have strengths and weaknesses,
but Mac computers make up a MUCH higher percentage of use by editors than 5%.......
estimates from a year ago showed Final Cut Pro with over 50% marketshare. Now I'm not sure
those are totally accurate either, BUT Macs are definitely NOT only a '5% market share' in the editing arena.

But even that isn't the entire story here. ProRes can and is used by other editors than only Final Cut Pro.
Adobe Premiere will work just fine with ProRes, as will Avid MC. So, although the 'codec' may be made by Apple,
other NLE's will work just fine with it, and really it is an amazing codec......even if it was made by Apple.
:-)

What NLE do you use? You may be surprised to find that it will work with ProRes.....lots of them do these days.

I just sent Atomos an email asking if they plan to support another codec such as Cineform. I don't know the issues associated with licensing Cineform. If it's doable, it's a better codec and can be used on both platforms.

The supposed 'global' percentage of users that use one platform versus another is suspect and irrelevant to me. The only credible data point to me is that your data doesn't hold true in the videographers association that I belong to. If Apple doesn't get with the program and update Final cut Pro sometime within the decade, the ratio will change even more.

I will post any response that I get to my email to Atomos. It looks like they have a very interesting product. Competition helps us all. The Nano is overpriced IMHO.

The problem with ProRes on a PC is when there is a need to encode to ProRes such as when sharing workflow between PC and Mac NLEs. For over a year, ProRes can be read on a PC that has a current version of Quicktime installed. But a PC can't export render ProRes. I have done quite a bit of collaborative editing with FCP editors and find that Cineform works very well. You can move video files back and forth easily. Cineform files can be exported 8 or 10 times with virtually no loss in video quality.

I intentionally did NOT use data from 'my experience'. It seems to me, that just because a certain
'editors association' or 'videographers association' in random areas of the country use one type
of NLE, that means really nothing in the big picture. If I was to use date from my experiences in
video associations and working at broadcast TV stations, I would have had to say over 90% Mac,
but I suspect that does not translate to the rest of the world very well. And the 'global' percentage
may be irrelevant to you, but I highly suspect it is VERY VERY relevant to those businesses that
make these products. For example, if ProRes is used by 65% of all NLE users and Cineform is
used by 25%, I would suspect that they are going make devices that record to ProRes. I'm just
saying....businesses are trying to make money here....

As for Cineform, you run into similar problems on a Mac, as you are running into
with ProRes on a PC. Cineform when exported from a PC is an .avi file and that is NOT Mac friendly.
Cineform on a Mac writes to .mov and that is NOT PC friendly. To use Cineform in a cross platform
was, I think you need to jump to NeoHD which is around $400-$500.....or you could just use
DNxHD, which works on both Macs and PC's......it's a FREE Avid codec if I remember correctly.

Finally, a portable recorder that uses SSD's and a SATA port. Is it possible they have figured out how provide reliable ProRes firmware. On the downside, our EX camera's have SDI outputs, so HDMI is not very practical.

AJA has been at this for two years with their KI-Pro and now KI-Mini both offer SDI/HDMI inputs. The Pro version is far from portable and is power hungry, firmware is another issue. Sadly their mini resorts to CF cards and that has limited usefulness because ProRes produces larger file sizes.

The Blackmagic Pro-Recorder is portable, uses H.264 and has very good 12-bit 4:2:2 inards as well as SDI/HDMI inputs. However it needs to be tethered to a laptop for storage and processing. It is still not shipping and now three months past their original delivery date.

As was pointed out the Nano/Flash. are pricey but is a working, mostly reliable and deliverable product. I do not want to fiddle around with CF cards for my work. Now if they integrated an SSD and could deliver the same feature set that would appeal to me.

So IMHO, more evolution is required to catch the revolution!

NO HDMI, Don't despair,I was speaking to one of the developers of the NINJA who spoke to the AVPA last night and he was exploring the possibility of producing a SDI input version.

regards

Ian Skurrie

Well, I use Vegas which can't handle Pro-Res. The Aja units are geared toward FC Pro as well. Our choices are limited so the Nano seems like the only reliable choice if one wants to spend that much money for it. The Blackmagic Pro-Recorder sounds interesting, but there is no User Manual to download and no test reports I am aware of. Blackmagic says it is shipping this month (October).

John

The competition is getting interesting day by day. looking at this ninja at the moment the only thing i have agaist it is the name. I do not like chinese names(no apologies). but I might be picking one when the full details is out and real world test prove good.

Hi Olakunle, Ninja is Japanese, not Chinese,

Greetings Jan

Dear Olakunle,

I worked in Osogbo in the nineties on a World bank project (DHV Consultants). We had an Olakunle in our team. It doesn't happen to be you, I suppose?

Cees

Is there any difference in japanese and chinese they all have 'nese' and that is the problem I have with their names lol

No, though I was born near Osogbo and Schooled in Osogbo. It is nice to know you've been to Osogbo anyway we could hook-up any time you decide to come back visiting.

Olakunle

Atmos isn't Working
 

I have noticed that for some time now the atmos site is working Enter The Ninja, what could be wrong? I don't think this is good for Business.

I haven't tried it myself but based on the reports of many other Vegas users it reads ProRes just fine once you install the codec.

it is suppose to be
I have noticed that for some time now the atmos site is NOT working Enter The Ninja, what could be wrong? I don't think this is good for Business.

Atomos's website is fine ?
 

Just checked and their website is still active ?

Have also sent them an Email Jim asking them to include an SDI input in the future, I suggest we send them a few queries about when the upgrade will take place :-)

Good luck with sending emails. I sent one and received no response. When or if their product is released, be careful. Wait for some credible reviews before placing an order.

I think I heard in a video somewhere that they where working on HD-SDI model - I am a buyer when it appears !!!

Just checked the website its still not working! I dont know how you are getting it to work or maybe my IP is blocked 'cos definately its not wroking from my end here.

I've used ProRes for years on Vegas. Works fine.

True. But they still work for Premier, Avid, and Vegas.


Your choices are limited to whatever you choose them to be. Others are doing every day, what say you cannot do.

What recorder you mean?

=============
What recorder you mean?
===============
This one:

Blackmagic Design: H.264 Pro Recorder

Only now it says it will ship in November instead of October.

John

[quote
This one:

Blackmagic Design: H.264 Pro Recorder

Only now it says it will ship in November instead of October.

John[/quote]


I finally queried BlackMagic on its intended deliver date as I have had this device on order from B&H since the beginning of June 2010. BlackMagic responded this week as follows:

"Barry,

Thank you for your interest in our products.

At this time, the Blackmagic Design, H.264 Pro Recorder is still considered
to be under development. Currently, the most up to date information I have
is that we are hoping to see this unit, production ready and shipping
sometime by the end of 2010/beginning of 2011 timeframe. However, because
this unit is still under development, ship time estimates are still subject
to change.

I have no information regarding any plans to replace this unit with an
updated version. Nor am I aware of any future feature additions which will
allow for the storage of captured material in the manner for which you are
looking.

It is highly doubtful at this time, that we would release a device that will
more closely suit the workflow you have described below.

Hope this information was helpful.

Richard T. Chao
Support Engineer
Blackmagic Design Inc. USA"

Needless to say, I have since cancelled my order. Given that another thread has been discussing the merits of ProRes vs. H.264 I am now leaning towards a ProRes solution. However, I refuse to purchase anything that uses Compact Flash cards. Toshiba is now manufacturing very thin and space saving SSD's with as much as 256GB of storage and a SATAII interface as used in the MacBook Air. Surely, AJA and/or Convergent will get the drift and abandon Compact Flash cards. If and when that happens, they will receive my consideration.

You may be waiting a while. A significant part of professional workflow (which these units are aimed at) includes hand-off) as the shooter is often on contract, and does not get to take the tape/SDHC card/CF card home. To facilitate this common professional workflow, practically every modern pro or prosumer camera offers removable media.

The inability to do a footage handoff after shooting would likely preclude sales to most professional shooters because it means that they could not do a hand-off, and it means that any media issue would render the unit inoperable until it's fixed. That problem is solved on removable media by placing another card in the slot.

Maybe what you want will be developed. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Not to put a damper on this whole thread, but does anyone know anything about Atomos.com? Trade show, previous purchase, anything?

This is the Whois information for that domain:

atomos.com WHOIS domain registration information from Network Solutions

Claire Young
2407/80 Clarendon Street
Southbank VIC 3006

John

Since they are a new company and the NINJA is on pre order "interest" basis, there are no previous purchases. MacVideo did a tradeshow interview with them and they seem to be on the trade show trail with working units 'worldwide'.

Perrones point is valid in the sense that any proprietary recording format/device will impair hand-off. However there is always the native recording format (tape, CF, SxS, P2, whathaveyou) for those situations.

The NINJA and its ilk are trying to improve workflow by making it easy to import recordings into your workflow and standardizing on a format. That would require every camera to have the same device to record to. How that might happen? Well not by every shooter just happening to bring the same device to a shoot.

The NINJA being HDMI-in only is a bit 'unprofessional', but I say just add a HI5 to the back of it to get HD-SDI in.

George/

[QUOTE=Chris Paporakis;1587282]Just checked and their website is still active ?QUOTE]

Chris you are right and I was wrong the site is actually still active, the error is from my ISP dont know why?