Alister, you are exactly right. I could not agree with you more. I'd have no second thoughts about taking any of the XDCAM EX camcorders out on a boat. Nor would I have any second thoughts about using my Canon XF305 on a boat, which is also CMOS. But I'd never shoot anythng with that kind of motion with an SLR.

I apologize if anybody thinks I threw a skunk into the room with that clip. If it wasn't from an EX1, I'll apologize to one and all without hesitation. When this thread began, I immediately remembered this clip simply becasue it WAS so extreme. I came across it back when I first started hanging around this forum and bookmarked it at the time so that I'd know what "jellovision" looked like. If it was shot with another brand or type of camera, I never would have bookmarked it as it would not add anything to my research re: the EX1.

I'll go back and search the archives for the original posting and the link that lead to this clip, but please know (Doug) that I would not knowingly try to cast any aspersions on the EX1. I love the camera very much. Off to search.....and to try to get Doug's blood pressure back down! ;-)

Alister I was not saying you used that in a production. Only stating the other problems I saw with the footage.

I am in full agreement that the EX1 will work fine shooting from a boat as my clips shows. Also stand behind my statement that with CCD you will have higher grade footage on the same shoot as you would expect.

Lets move on.

Here you go, Doug:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...nstration.html

You can blame Matt for this clip.

Okay, I was wrong. I guess I can accept that it was really shot with an EX1, but I don't think the camera was operating normally. Even though Matt seems to have tried to make it look that bad just to prove a point, I still find hard to believe that a properly working EX1 could be made to do it. There's something else going on with that footage. In my opinion, anyone who thinks that clip should have any influence on their decision of when/where/how to use an EX1 is making a mistake. I will gladly use my EX1 in any shooting situation.

Oh Dave, don't worry, I wasn't faulting you for linking to the clip. I hope I didn't give that impression.

I WAS a bit worried when you called "BS" on my post. I was all set to suggest that you switch to decaf!! No worries, buddy.

BS on the clip, not on the post. I knew the clip wasn't yours.

To me this looks as a result of microvibrations (the worst to show ass biting rolling shutter) from the engine and a combination of a tripod, tele end and software stabilization in post production.

It also has the shutter set to 1/500th which will dramatically increase the amount of skew over more normal shutter speeds.

The example I posted was shot entirely with an EX1 with the stabilizer "on".

Keep in mind that these were all handheld on boats that ran on open water at speeds of 15 knots or more. No JelloVision. 1/60 or 1/100 shutter speeds. The only reason for a faster shutter speed is that it improves my chances to stabilize the shot in post-production.

For JelloVision to happen, the camera has to actually vibrate. It has to shift from left to right and back again faster than the CMOS chip is scanned. If it doesn't shift that fast, vertical lines won't skew enough to be noticed.

And at that point, the shot is generally unusable even if it were shot on a CCD.

Thanks Dean, I completely agree.

There is far to much miss information with regard to skew and jello. Lots of "Hey I found this bizarre and unusual situation where the camera did something weird" and not enough "Hey I shot from a moving platform and shook the camera around and it still looked great". It unnecessarily scares people away from doing adventurous shots with perfectly capable cameras or drives then to spend more money than they really need to. In terms of image quality CMOS is the equal of CCD now. Just look at Alexa or even the F3.
It is important to know about skew and understand what causes it, but it has to looked at in a balanced manner, not based on a few sensationalist video clips. It's also important to understand that different CMOS sensors will have different skew performance.

Hi Mark.
First I'm a norwegian so my english writing will not be as good as if my writing was in norwegian :)

I have filmed some scenes from different boat sizes. That is from a single canoe to larger boats/ferrys. I have tried both handheld and with tripod. Both stabilizer on and off. So my experience is that different settings need different aproaches. But I'm sure you all ready know that.
Still I have done some great (in my opinion) shots in a small boat, both handheld and with tripod. If you're alone, with only 2 hands you sometimes need your tripod. For me zooming is a no-no, too much shaking and very difficult to stabilize, even in the edit prosess. If the sea is very calm and you're on board a bigger boat, I guess some zooming can be done with a good result. I have filmed with 2 different cameras in a canoe, in calm sea, using my tripod. I think the result was good enough.
In the vimeo link you can see some shooting with handheld camera (Canon XLH1) in some rough sea. Stabilizer on during the shooting, not in the editing prosess. Look at the scene at 1.01 and 1.40. The only thing I did was to slow down just a little bit in the editing prosess.

Geir
It says:
The creator of this video has not given you permission to embed it on this domain.
This is a Vimeo Plus feature.

Has your Vimeo Plus membership expired perhaps?

Hmm, I dont understand this problem.
I've opened up the video so that it can be shown anywhere by anyone.
Yes my account is in order :)
Anyone have a clue?

You can download a smaller version here: http://www.uwolchallenge.com/challen...ontheshore.mov

Hi Geir
I have had the problem, with the embed code from Vimeo this month, that it showed another video than mine. You can just put the page adress on this forum and it will show your video.

Does it not work now - I was on your vimeopage and clicked on a film - now it shows op on this forum site.

Gotta love those puffins.

I have to disagree with that comment Alister. After listening to Hugo who is VP of product development for Sony last night who explained the difference in great detail. You are comparing two very different cameras. That is like saying the F35 is same quality to the PMW-350. You need to keep it apples to apples and not deceive with such a broad statement.
Is CMOS getting better? I would say yes with every day it is getting better.
Is it cheaper to make? Yes by a huge margin.
Are there very different levels of CMOS? Yes huge differences.
Does all of that apply to CCD? NO, CCD is not really getting cheaper and seems to have hit a wall with development
Will better CCD come along? Who knows
Is the new F3 a great CMOS chip? Yes it is an amazing chip.

If you spent the same amount on a CMOS sensor as a CCD sensor, I doubt you would be able to tell the difference, aside from skew or smear. The F3 produces an arguably better than or at least comparable to image to the PMW 500 (less noise, greater dynamic range), yet the F3 is half the price. The PMW-350 produces an image that is so close to the PMW-500 that in a blind test I doubt many people would be able to tell which is which.

I agree with most of that Alister and don't want to beat this too death. Having owned and shot with PMW-350 & 500 I can tell the difference at full size. I agree most can't tell unless they are educated and care about it. I am lucky to have clients who can tell, care, and pay the difference.

Skew and smear are a big CMOS factor but at the high end $75,000 and up the cameras are doing a great job getting rid of this due to better chip technology then the lower priced CMOS. This will only come down to the lower priced CMOS over time.

The F3 sensor is a huge step up for Sony and that is the low end for their 35mm CMOS, nice to see their progress and hard work put them in the lead with 35mm. At F3 1/2 the price of PMW-500 not really since the camera is not a ENG camera and not as good with fast motion and also is 35Mb/s 420. But for its price and as a 35mm digital camera it is a winner. And the big news is the F3 with the external Sony recorder option, that doubles the price, but is well worth every penny to get the most from the chip at 10 bit 440Mb/s and 220Mb/s using S-Log.

We are lucky to have Sony offer nice options in a huge range of cameras so each of us can choose one that fits the job. And with all of this buying one that fits the jobs and MAKES YOU MONEY, is the big factor with our businesses.

As always Alister I appreciate your input and am just stating my opinion. Hope some day to have fun banter over a few beers.

Hey Paul no sweat, I respect your opinion and the 500 and F3 are very different cameras for different markets.

The forum would be really dull if everyone just nodded in agreement. Your on for that beer, I'll be at SxSW and NAB this year for starters. Lets get together and disagree :-)

Alister thank you for the nice post. I think the F3 is a winner and will be a great seller for Sony.

I missed you last year at NAB since I was only there for just over a day. Look forward to meeting up this year and discussing our passion.

Have Fun Every Day!