EX1 vs EX1R
 

I'm sure this has been debated before, but I think there's fresh information given that B&H now lists the EX1R at $6000 after the rebate. So my question is, what's a better value -- a new EX1R or a used EX1 from a good seller (Adorama) at $4600?

My budget can stretch to the 6k range but it would be a lot easier for me to save the extra $1400. Some more info about my needs:

1. I'm shooting quite a bit hand held, so how much better for this is the EX1R's ergonomics?

2. I'm going to use SDHC cards. Is there an issue here with the older model?

Thank you very much for your help!!

Eyal

The improvement in ergonomics is incremental. Neither is the best camera for handheld shooting for any length of time without a shoulder mount setup. The "R" is a bit better with the redesigned handgrip.

Both cameras (with the most current firmware) handle the SDHC cards perfectly well. This assumes you get reasonably good memory cards.

Based on what you indicate your use is I don't see the value in getting the "R" over a good used EX1. If you are going to do a lot of handheld work you may be better to get the used camera and spend the difference on a good shoulder mount.

Thanks, Chris.

Can you recommend a good, reasonably priced shoulder mount?

ex1r is great. But not worth the buy over ex1.

big diff. is

1) s+q button on outside is handy, but to be honest takes two secs in the menu.

2) Also the grip is better. The grip on the handle is shocking on the ex1.

3) Cache recording, not really neccs i wouldn't really use it.

4) Coloring on switches handy but again not worth extra cost.

5) Only thing i think is a big dif, is hdmi out. If your using dslrs as b cameras you can use the same monitors etc.

However you can get some great deals on ex1's now.

I love mine great bit of kit. You will love it

Ollie

Thanks, Ollie. Sorry about the noob questions but what's the "s+q" button?

And as for the grip, are you able to shoot with it hand held, or is it really awful?

S&Q = Slow and Quick Motion.

More differences:
- One the EX1R you can record in Standard Def in DVCAM mode
- Improved Audio

John,

We also have for sale:
-PMW-EX1 used
-PMW-EX1R used
-PMW-EX1R Brand New (Mail in rebate of $300)

Contact my sales department for more info: sales@ecprovideo.com
You're located in NY? Stop by our store at 51st Street Between Broadway & 8th and take a look.

I have a VERY old shoulder mount for an old Sony VX1000 that I hacked apart to work on the EX1. I've not used a modern one. Sorry that I don't have more info for you there. I don't use it much anymore anyway. I've found a better solution that I have noted below.

To add some to the handheld comments - Depending on what I'm doing its OK to use handheld if I take the camera and cradle it in your arm almost like a baby. This brings the camera well below the eye line but for some of the stuff I shoot its a look that works well. You can't do it standing too close to your subject unless they are really short. ;) I have one of the large 95wh batteries on the back of the camera and it sticks out far enough to act as a stand-off. The battery works well to wedge against your upper chest when you are holding the camera higher too.

One accessory that I've found VERY beneficial with this camera is a monopod. When I'm running the camera "low" I tilt the head up and tuck the monopod under my arm with the leg collapsed. If I need to stand still and shoot a normal interview I stand it up and extend it out to take the weight of the camera. If I need to walk around with the camera up higher I shorten it up and stick the foot in an old knife holster on my belt. Works great and was about $125 in total. Try to find one that is 4 section so it will collapse down enough.

loads of mounts you can buy.

some good shoulder mounts too.

Sandq lets you do slow motion for example 720p25p at 60 frames.

Please note: 720p50 wont get you slow mo unless you conform in cinema tools. or any other programme.

DVCAM, handy for live gigs which i find.

another handy feature. not worth the extra, as you will be spending a bit on media/ mounts etc.

Thanks, Junior, I contacted your sales rep. Regarding the improved audio -- how improved is it? I shot a documentary with an old PD150 and the audio was fine, so I assume the EX1 can't be worse, right?

Thanks for the info, Chris. I also cradle the camera often when shooting hand held. It makes the motion so much smoother.

The EX1r is better balanced than the EX1. If you hand hold the camera for any length of time the unbalanced nature of the EX1 can be quite tiring wheras the newer version does not skew off vertical.

The viewfinder is much better on the EX1r, but still not as good as the LCD display.

Auto-white balance seems to be better, but I don't normally use this so can't be 100% sure.

The instant iris push button switch is an useful addition.

The twin threaded tripod plate is an improvement.

Overall, I consider the first point to be of greatest value, otherwise small, but useful improvements.

Geoff

The EX1R is definitely an improvement over the EX1. I had an EX1 and upgraded to an EX1R because I needed the image flip function for 3D applications.

The differences are small, but there is a fair number of them and they do make the camera nicer to use. It is nicer to hold, the switches are better, especially if your wearing gloves. The SD option may or may not be useful to you, frankly I only ever use it during demos. The HDMI out is one of the most useful features and I use picture cache a lot. I like the new card slot cover and the rear viewfinder is a massive improvement, it is at least useable now.
If someone came up to me with $1400 and a brand new EX1, I would keep my EX1R.

ex1r
 

ive been going back and forth between the ex1r and the 3 mainly because of the excellant vf on the 3. never thought of the idea suggested of using the monopod collapsed and stick the end in a holder at waist level. i can see this helping greatly, plus id be paying 5899.00 vs 7826.00 for the ex3.
may borrow a friends ex1r and try the monopod method. i think i would still pay the xtra to get sxs cards vs. the sd cards.

Can anyone explain the viewfinder differences? I'm shooting quite a bit with it -- and less and less with the LCD -- so this may be an issue for me if the EX1's viewfinder is unusable.

Thanks!

The one on the EX1 is much lower resolution than the EX1r.

The viewfinder on the EX1 is OK for framing but you can't judge focus or even exposure on the thing. To be honest its so bad its distracting. After trying to use it for any length of time I get agitated that Sony would put something so crappy on an otherwise great camera.

Have you ever looked at the viewfinder of a cheap $250 camcorder? It is not as good as one of those. Seriously. Unusable is being kind.

If you must use the rear viewfinder there no choice. You have to get the "R".

I agree with Chris. Viewfinder on the EX1 is not suitable, at all, for such a capable HD cam - especially regarding getting focus right. Go with EX1r if you can afford it - you won't regret it (for many other reasons/benefits over the EX1 as well). Lack of a decent viewfinder on the EX1 was one of the main reasons I bought the EX3 in July 2008 (i.e. bought long before the EX1r ever came out). I'm totally delighted with the EX3's viewfinder but that's out of your stated budget - unless you can get a used EX3 at a decent price, maybe? Let us know what you go for in the end.

So if I'm working with auto-focus the viewfinder issue won't be a big deal? I'm using the view finder exclusively while moving around and following a person, so manual focus in this situation is pretty impossible anyway (at least for me.)

I'm hesitating. The money gap is really stretching me.

Ouch.. Autofocus is NOT the EX1s strong suite. It has a tendency to latch on to unexpected objects that are not what you want. Also with the larger imagers focus becomes much more critical and very obvious when its wrong.

I would never recommend using autofocus in conjunction with the viewfinder on an EX1. My experience with that combination proved it doesn't work. Even with peaking turned on it doesn't work.

Except for certain special situations I don't recommend using full autofocus on the camera at all. If you are following the rule of thirds you won't like what it focuses on. Its heavily biased to the center.

It would be worth it to rent an EX1 for a weekend and you'll see. If you were here in North Carolina I would let you see both side by side. I'm not overstating how horrible the original viewfinder is or how unpredictable the autofocus can be.

If you really need to use the rear viewfinder there is no option. Buy the EX1r.

Use autofocus sparingly. Try to get in the habit of running manual. Its not hard with a little practice.

Chris, I agree completely. If someone knows in advance that they intend on relying on auto-focus, none of the EX cameras is a good idea.

John, if you're serious about auto-focus, you might want to consider the Sony Z7U or Canon XF300. They are much better at focusing. Sure, they are only 1/3" cameras, but that's one of the things you give up by going to a 1/2" camcorder. No matter what camera you choose, I would still encourage you to learn to shoot without auto-focus, but at least those cameras are way better at it.

Chris, that's so nice of you to offer. Unfortunately I'm in Israel these days...

So you guys are able to focus while moving, and your subject is moving, even on a bright sunny day? I'm amazed. Is it really just experience?

I actually rented an EX1R for a day last month and loved it. Used auto-focus with no issues -- well, almost with no issues. In one situation, while it was low-light and I think 15db gain, the auto-focus did fail me.

I also played a bit with the Panasonic AF100 and the auto-focus over there, with the Lumix 14-140, was way worse. I guess the even bigger sensor is the culprit.

On a bright sunny day you can close down the lens and depending on your zoom setting everything will be in focus. That isn't the best test of the autofocus system though. Zoom 50% or more with the lens at F2.8 and you'll see what I'm talking about. If something with good contrast moves slowly into the center of the lens the camera will focus on it. Regardless of what you want it to focus on. There is no face recognition or anything like that running in the camera to help it hold onto a subject.

If you are going to close down on the lens enough that everything is in focus you aren't using this camera to its true potential due to diffraction softening the image. If this is your normal operating mode you may want to consider a Z7U. It has better autofocus and in bright sunlight it will make a great image. Also the batteries for the Z7 are a lot cheaper than the EX1. I only mention this due to your comments about wanting to stay within your budget.

When I'm shooting cars at the track there is a reason why I shoot with a V1U and not the EX1r. I can set the V1U to autofocus and let it go when following cars around the track. The EX1r can't reliably do this. I run around in the pits with the EX1 shooting interviews. Its shallow depth of field works great to bring attention to the person being interviewed.

I love my EX1r. Its a great tool. Some things its better suited for than others. You will get the best out of it by running it more manual and playing to its strengths. Unfortunately its strengths can't be realized when its in auto anything.

This is only my opinion. Your mileage may vary. ;)

Alister is spot on.

I think getting the EX1R and waiting till the bank account fills up for accessories is wiser than compromising to an used EX1 so you can buy accessories now. I find that the accessories I *think* I need at buy time aren't necessarily the ones I need after using the camera.

Hoodman makes a nice diopter for the EX1R that turns the LCD into a VF. It's not perfect but definitely usable. See Westside AV for accessories. They make a short and long shoulder mount that is very popular although I don't have one (yet). :-)

Just a few thoughts before the OP thinks an EX1 is completely unusable :-)

I've personally never used my EX1 viewfinder, I always use the flip out screen.
And it's never let me down. Having to keep my head so near to the camera isn't something I've done in a long time. Mind you I do still have perfect vision.

Yesterday was an industrial shoot, handheld all day, with the camera in all sorts of angles focus pulling all the time. The shots aren't sustained of course, I keep things moving all the time.

A more traditional shoot like this: YouTube - BBQ BOOTCAMP was a long day handheld in the summer, burning my arse on the BBQ's. Some sustained interview type shots, with an assistant on a radio boom.

I use long Swit batteries, so I can snug the camera up against my neck while still using the screen.

I sometimes use a cheap body mount for sustained interviews on the should where the camera is rigged with multiple radiomics and lighting: CVP SM1 Shoulder mount camcorder support bracket system - Ideal for most handheld DV / HDV camcorders, it clips onto my backpack with a carabiner for added security.

Duncan.

The viewfinder on the EX1r is an improvement over that of the EX1 but it's nothing to get excited about either. Once you get to know either one you'll be able to recognize focus. You'll need to use the image doubling feature on either for certainty. Ergonomically I really don't think there's any difference. Also, $4600- sounds a bit high for an EX1.

Thank you very much for this info, Mark & Craig. Craig, a question: at around 1:10 of your BBQ video (great job!) you seem to move around the subject for a few seconds and change angle while doing so. Are you adjusting focus while moving? If not, how come he stays in focus?

I realize this is a basic question and I really appreciate the opportunity to learn something here.

I beg to differ. Many of the changes in the EX1R were ergonomic improvements that Sony made as a result of listening.

orange switch backgrounds
power switch with lock
S&Q button
reengineered grip
... and maybe some firmware things I'm unaware of.

Not to pat ourselves on the back, but Sony sent Alister Chapman and me to the factory in Japan shortly after the EX1 was launched to give the engineers feedback. A lot of those suggestions showed up in the EX1R, so I can say for certain that Sony does listen and is very interested in customer feedback . . . athough I must admit we're still waiting for a few things. :-(

John... I'm not Craig, but I checked out the video at 1:10 and notice how he is shooting wide and deep? The subject stays well within the range of focus even moving closer or away when using a deep DOF.

Thanks, Buck. I'll experiment with it using my good old PD170. While shooting two feature documentaries (over 300 hours of footage) in some chaotic situations the auto-focus failed me once! But I guess this is the time to become more proficient with the manual focus.

Was the IR contamination fixed on the EX1R??
 

Does anyone know??

Was the IR contamination issue fixed on the EX1R??

Thanks,

William

Hello, Duncan here,

The moving shots weren't hard, as has been said it was all wide and bright with deep depth of field, so nothing difficult. The problem with these jobs is often nervous talent, and doing it all in a rush in one take. As was the case with the BBQ job.

Something like the dog food commercial on my YouTube channel was so easy compared to the BBQ job.
Again shot in half a day with no script or precise plans. They say never work with animals, but the dog was amazing. (He's also the John Smiths dog with Peter Kay in case you're in the UK).

I do occasionally get work where the client has planned things, but it's seems to be less the case these days. Ha.

I believe the infrared issues we have are considered 'features' rather than 'faults'. Personally when I have a problem, I use a T1 filter under the lens hood and re-white balance the camera.

I have noticed I always have to hit the white balance twice. I use a Lastolite 18% gray card on the gray side, auto iris on.
The first time gets it close, but the second time, even on a static shot will adjust slightly, does anyone get this?

Yes. A google using "EX1R IR contamination" yields several articles...here's a few...

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdc...-hardware.html

ProVideo Coalition.com: Stunning Good Looks by Art Adams


YouTube - EX1 and EX1R and Tiffen T1 filter test.wmv

+1 for going with the EX1-R.

I have an EX1 and an EX1-R - the latter is the main camera now. The USB has speeded up on the EX1-R which means you'll get less problems with (good) SDHC cards.

Audio: you can now switch the limiter off. Deep sub-bass at high volume (or wind noise) no longer 'tinkles' (though the latter was fixed on my EX1 when it was 'away').

Another thing, which may not seem exactly 'positive' is that there are changes to the way the camera's built that improve 'crashability'. The side door, for example, used to require a lot of expensive disassembly if it was damaged in any way. On the EX1-R, it's got a simpler system that I'm assured is cheap to repair.

I can also attest to the 'tough old boot' nature of the EX1-R. My EX1 had to go back for a new power board, a lens assembly, bits and bobs. Recently, it's needed a trip to redo the lens alignment as it wouldn't do an auto backfocus.

The EX1-R is thoroughly sorted. If you buy a S/H EX1, who knows if the power board has been done, or the backfocus anomaly with NDs has been fixed? Just a thought.

Re: EX1 vs EX1R
 

Thanks everyone, I truly appreciate your help. I actually decided not to go with either the EX1 or the R, and to get a Panasonic AF100.

What made me go in this direction was the conversation here about the imperfect auto-focus of the EX1 series. If I have to go manually than I figured I may as well get a lighter, and cheaper camera, which also create great footage. I experimented with it using manual focus and realized I can do it :)

Thanks again!