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-   -   Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-ex-pro-handhelds/509573-sony-pmw-200-brings-hd-4-2-2-workflow-xdcam-camcorder-line.html)

Alister Chapman July 26th, 2012 12:45 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
The EX30 only plays 35Mb/s 1920 x 1080 SxS media, so will not work with any 50 Mb/s media.

The door to the audio controls is quite thin, but it is also quite flexible and this might make it less prone to damage. Only time will tell.

Bigger sensors mean that diffraction blur will small apertures will be much less pronounced on the EX's or PMW200 than on a NX5. So in effect the EX1/PMW-200 has a greater usable aperture range, so you don't need such fine steps of ND to compensate. That might be why they are different.

The XDCAM HD422 format allows clips to be any length up to the capacity of the card without breaking the file into chunks. So, to retain compatibility with all the other XDCAM HD422 cameras a file system other than FAT32 with it's 4GB file limit had to be used. Sony chose UDF as that's what the optical disc XDCAM cameras use. While you can format SD cards with UDF if you do, you will often experience a performance hit and you may also run into reliability issues. SDHC cards are designed specifically to work with FAT32. The wear levelling process used in the cards is designed to work with the block sizes used by FAT32. If you use another format you can get corruption caused by the incorrect block size. You can use XQD for UDF and this is cheaper than SxS.

Of course you can always continue to use the camera in FAT mode with 35Mb/s 420 for everyday non broadcast projects with SD cards and just switch up to XQD and SxS when you need 422 and UDF. You'll still have the benefits of the slightly improved picture quality either way.

David Dwyer July 26th, 2012 01:20 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745484)
The camera is covered in ventilation grills, most off them on the rear of the camera body and underside. I would hope that the sensor area is separated from the rest of the camera to prevent dust ingress, I don't think Sony would release a camera with this many vents without protecting the sensor area somehow.


This is a major worry for me as I film in VERY dusty conditions!

Gints Klimanis July 26th, 2012 02:01 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
If we're at the limit of sensor technologies, I'd be tempted to upgrade for more focusing and metering aids as well as a bump in the LDC and Viewfinder resolution. Is a higher density display (like Apple's Retina display in 2010) not possible for Sony in 2012?

Les Wilson July 26th, 2012 02:27 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I notice the shotgun mic holder sticks up quite a bit more than the EX1 does. Is it removable?

Andy Wilkinson July 26th, 2012 02:54 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I took mine of my EX3 as soon as I got it. Two crosshead scews and 10 seconds. I would be surprised if it was any more complicated on this new cam but someone who has handled it better confirm.

The Sony mic mount, even if this one is more robust that what we've seen before, is no substitute for something decent from Rycote like the excellent Invision Video or maybe Rode offerings, both of which are easily removable.

Downside is that these better mic mounts (typically) occupy the front shoe so you are no longer able to get that "rabbit caught in the headlights" look so easily from your talent, if you want to use an on-camera light, for example ;-)

I found taking off my EX3's Sony mic mount also enabled me to much more easily get the cam in a Petrol bag for overhead airplane storage on some big international jobs that I was doing.

Over to someone who has seen the method of attachment.

Mark Donnell July 26th, 2012 02:57 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I'm convinced - I have put my deposit in with Omega Broadcast. I've been a loyal Panasonic P2 user (HVX-200, then HPX-170), but I was not impressed with the HPX-250, and since I shoot mostly indoor sports, I was concerned about the lower sensitivity of the XF-300. If nothing new came out, I was planning to go with the EX-1R in September, but this unit really fits my needs. Thanks Sony !

Les Wilson July 26th, 2012 03:46 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Removing the EX shotgun mount and replacing it with a shoe or something is not without headaches. I removed mine which helps packing but there's still the matter of packing the ungainly and space wasting replacement holder rig. The PMW-200 mount appears to have a sturdy riser and perhaps there's a release of some sort to detach the actual mount mechanism?

The more I learn about the PMW-200, the less impressive it becomes. Putting the power port inside the battery compartment means OEM batteries that have D-TAP ports for accessories like lights and external recorders cannot be used. The PMW-200 is left with few reasons to buy it over competitive camcorders and barely any reasons to upgrade from the EX1 or EX1R. Pity.

Philip Lipetz July 26th, 2012 03:54 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Wilson (Post 1745545)
You should buy a Canon XF300 if you want to use non-SxS media. I for one enjoy being able to buy robust professional media. It's better, who cares if it's proprietary?

Just sold our Xf100, it and the Xf300 do not have low light capacity. Loved grading their output when I could shoot at low dB.

David Heath July 26th, 2012 04:17 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Wilson (Post 1745589)
The PMW-200 is left with few reasons to buy it over competitive camcorders and barely any reasons to upgrade from the EX1 or EX1R. Pity.

The obvious competitors to the PMW200 are the Canon XF305 and the Panasonic HPX250. Compared to both of them the obvious advantage the PMW200 has is 1/2" chips versus 1/3" and that's a BIG point in the PMW200s favour. That means better native sensitivity, more control (a full stops worth) over depth of field, and the ability to stop down further without diffraction limiting. Compared to the HPX250 it additionally has true manual control of focus and iris, not the servo system of the HPX250.

As far as upgrading from an EX1R goes, then the obvious difference is the fully approved codec. If your clients insist upon that, then the PMW200 means they can be satisfied without the need for an external recorder. That may not be enough to make somebody upgrade from an EX1 - but if you're looking to upgrade from something else it makes the PMW200 the obvious choice in this price point.

Alister Chapman July 26th, 2012 05:23 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Yep, two screws to remove it. Microphone holder that is!

I'm sure the battery manufactures will figure out a way to construct a battery with a plug that pops up into the socket after the battery has been inserted. Might end up as a more elegant solution than the flying cable.

Gints Klimanis July 26th, 2012 06:31 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
There are accessories for mic holders that can mount in place of the stock EX1 mic holder. Likewise, there are some shoe expansion products . I bought the 2nd one. In any case, I have two camera-mounted microphones, usually an omni and a cardioid but sometimes two of the same. One microphone is usually set 10 dB lower to avoid hitting the EX1's fixed limiter

"J-Rod Twin Shoe Mount"
Moving Still LLC J-Rod Twin Shoe Mount Hot Shoe Adapters at Markertek.com

"J-Rod Super Strong Twin Mount for EX1/R EX3"
Moving Still LLC J-Rod Super Strong Twin Mount for EX1/R EX3 Hot Shoe Adapters at Markertek.com

Gints Klimanis July 26th, 2012 06:35 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Does the PMW-200 have the same fixed limiter on input? I'd like a disable menu option.

Les Wilson July 26th, 2012 06:52 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Heath (Post 1745597)
The obvious competitors to the PMW200 are the Canon XF305 and the Panasonic HPX250. Compared to both of them the obvious advantage the PMW200 has is 1/2" chips versus 1/3" and that's a BIG point in the PMW200s favour. ...

I chose my words carefully. I said few not none. The 1/2" chips and the advantages that come with them are a given advantage over competitors (not sure it amounts to that much tho) but what used to be a powerful advantage is now a much weaker one. Especially against the $5600 pricepoint of HPX250. I am unimpressed with the +9db noise comparison to the EX1R.

The PMW-200 lost the EX camera's advantage of the unique rotating handle, compact form factor and 12v OEM power with D-TAP for running accessories. Even if there's an OEM power solution eventually, it requires a new battery without the economy of scale of using what's already been designed, developed and in the stores for the EX series. Then there's the subtraction of the PMW-200 LCD design that gets in the way of the shoe which is a design flaw the competitors don't share. Every single photo on the Sony Professional Europe's Facebook photo album of users using the EX1 with a wireless receiver could not do that on the PMW-200 design. The XF300 lacks the flaw and provides two sided viewing. So who's done the better engineering design there? How about that periscope for a shotgun mount? Sheesh.

The PMW-200 is a step backward for EX1/3 users from perspective of ergonomics, LCD, power and packaging. It's neutral for media, manual controls, and apparently firmware features like focus and exposure assist or whatever. So to move forward to HD422 from an EX, you have to give up quite a bit. If HD422 means nothing to you, then it's an even bigger step backward.

Les Wilson July 26th, 2012 06:58 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis (Post 1745612)
There are accessories for mic holders that can mount in place of the stock EX1 mic holder. ...

I have the DM-Accessories replacement mount but that's not the issue. The issue I raise is the PMW-200 riser protrudes quite high. If there were a thumb latch or something where the mic and it's holder could be removed, that would show Sony had put some design innovation into it. Instead, it appears to be a rather dull design that sticks up even more relative to the body than the EX1 making it (IMHO) a weaker design.

Galen Rath July 26th, 2012 07:55 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I read that you just about have to buy a special plate to mount the EX1R on a tripod to avoid the one on the camera from breaking. I assume the PMW-200 doesn't have this "design" flaw?

Alister Chapman July 27th, 2012 05:14 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Les, It's not like the XF300/305 doesn't have flaws of it's own, like the inability to have manual zoom control and servo zoom at the same time, un calibrated non-repeatable iris control, focus position that changes when you go from manual to auto, the aperture ramping when you zoom, etc. No camera is perfect. You may not be that impressed by the lower noise of the PMW-200 over the EX1R, but compared to the XF305 that's a big difference. Bottom line is bigger pixels almost always give a better signal to noise ratio and that's vital for many production companies, especially those shooting observational docs where light levels are often poor. Most broadcast and professional production companies don't give a damn about 3rd party batteries, all that matters to them is will the camera deliver the picture picture quality they need with a workflow that fits within their production. With many productions mixing full size cameras and handheld cameras you cannot ignore the benefit for a production company of having just one common codec, media and workflow. In addition as the codec and metadata are 100% compatible with Sony's optical disc XDCAM system there is also a very good long term archive and storage solution.
Yes, I think Sony have lost ground by being slow to bring this to the market, but this does complete the line up. Using the same workflow you can shoot with a PMW-500 and PMW-200. Throw in a PDW-F800 or PDW-700 if you want optical disc. You can write the PMW-200 files directly to the PDW-F800/700 using a PC or Mac, no transcoding or processing needed. Store your footage longterm using one of the new XDCAM juke boxes or archive management systems and get the benefits of a proxy based workflow that works across even very slow networks. That's why the PMW-200 will sell and it will sell very well in my opinion. Production companies like to keep things simple, they don't want multiple codecs or different media for different cameras and they need handheld cameras that perform well in low light.

As for the wireless mic getting in the way? Simple, use the rear shoe. The PMW200 mic mount is no more of a periscope than the 305's.

Don't be confused by the dimensions given on the various web sites. The PMW-200 is overall slightly smaller than an EX1R. It's a little longer, but narrower and shorter. I'm not sure where the dimensions that say it's 4" longer come from, it certainly didn't appear that much longer to me, maybe 2".

The base of the camera is to a new design. The tripod threads are part of the base, which is plastic. It appears to be some form of glass reinforced plastic with some kind of thread insert. I did try to deliberately cross thread and damage the threads, but failed, they are very tough. Again the mounting surface area is fairly small, bigger than an EX1 but still not the entire camera base (for cooling reasons I was told) but as the mount is now integral to the camera base I suspect it will be stronger.

Vincent Oliver July 27th, 2012 10:26 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Have Sony addressed the IR problem?

Doug Jensen July 27th, 2012 11:02 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Galen Rath (Post 1745625)
I read that you just about have to buy a special plate to mount the EX1R on a tripod to avoid the one on the camera from breaking. I assume the PMW-200 doesn't have this "design" flaw?

What design flaw? My EX1 is coming up on on 5 years old now and I've never bought any special plate, nor do I personally know any fellow EX1 owners who have. You are misinformed about the camera.

Les Wilson July 27th, 2012 11:45 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Alister, respectfully, my first post on the PMW-200 in another thread was to the effect that Sony listened to the wrong people and I see that reinforced more and more. More precisely, the PMW-200 design seemingly reflects needs from a subset of the user base... specifically, IMHO the PMW-200 does not reflect the needs and use cases of it's non-broadcast user base. I'd argue those who've made their career in tripod mounted shoots and where handheld meant shoulder mounted aren't the only ones who have input... and in the case of the handycam PMW-200 arguably have the least amount of insight due to their traditional camera prejudice.

Case in point is the EX1R battery design that lets the broadcasters "not give a damn about OEM batteries" (your words) all day long while letting the rest of us enjoy the upgrade-ability, economical availability, ergonomic and flexibility benefits of the fly cable design. The PMW-200's redesign of the battery compartment reflects broadcaster needs only.

Case in point #2 is the idea to use the rear mount for wireless receivers and lights because anything mounted on the front gets in the way of the LCD flip out. Those that have experience actually using the EX1 rear handle mount would know the shoe scrapes one's hand when trying to use the camera's top handle and mounting anything back there makes anything handheld even more uncomfortable and difficult while a front mounted shoe works just dandy. The PMW-200's front shoe interfering with the LCD seemingly reflects a broadcast need.

As for the XF300, all cameras have deficits and I have been as vociferous as anyone espousing the benefits of the EX1R over the XF300 as someone who went through examining both and chose the EX1R. IMHO, the PMW-200 is much less of a superior camera system for non-broadcast users and anyone who values ergonomics in balance with IQ because we use the tool for something more than a small substitute for a full size camera or smaller package on a set of sticks/rig.

Bill Thomas July 27th, 2012 11:54 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I believe he is referring to this plate:
Juice Designs — EX1 / EX1R Base Plate

I myself use this plate on the base of my EX1 for extra security and piece of mind. A high amount of EX1's I've come across have had the the small plastic "base plate" that the camera's 1/4-20 insert is attached to ripped out of the camera or precariously loose. A lot of this is prob due to operator error or abuse but I think we can agree that the 1/4-20 insert on the EX is not the most 'robust' of designs.

Alister Chapman July 27th, 2012 12:20 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I disagree that Sony listened to the wrong people. Sony are running a business, they need to sell cameras to stay in business. The big market for this camera is the broadcast market.

Part of the reasoning behind the new LCD placement is to prevent the handle or LCD screen from extending beyond the end of the camera lens. This ensures that there won't be issues with matte boxes, autocues, 3D rigs and other things fouling the viewfinder, handle or microphone. There are quite a few of these that can't be used on the EX1 and XF305 because the microphone or viewfinder gets in the way. It's almost impossible to use any sort of graduated filter correctly on an EX1 or XF305. The XF305 is all but impossible to use on a 3D mirror rig. The protruding mic and viewfinder was a very big end user compliant with the EX1.
When you have a small form factor camera there is limited space for things like viewfinders. I prefer this design to the EX1. It doesn't foul my camera light or my radio mic, both of which can be mounted so they sit ahead of the LCD so I can open and close the LCD with them. Some radio mic receivers will prevent you from opening and closing the LCD, I agree, but a simple slide in $15 cold shoe extender that moves the shoe forwards will easily resolve that. Perhaps sony will include one with the camera, I believe canon supply one with the C300.

I don't agree with the design of the battery connector. I said that in my review, I think it is short sighted, but it really isn't a deal breaker. The placement of the connector has nothing to do with the needs of broadcasters or freelancers, it's purely to make it hard for 3rd parties to make batteries for the camera. Third party batteries will come, probably quite quickly and probably with D-Taps. Are you really suggesting you wouldn't invest $7,000 in a camera just because of the need to buy a couple of new batteries? Batteries don't last more than a couple of years anyway, so they will need to be replaced at some point anyway.

Les Wilson July 27th, 2012 01:30 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745718)
...The big market for this camera is the broadcast market....

I've heard this for decades in product development. It's usually spreadsheet toting MBA think by suits that have dulled many an innovative engineering team. I find it summarily one dimensional. Camera ergonomics and features can satisfy more than one customer segment. Sony isn't losing the sleep over by loss of battery sales. With innovation, they'd have put d-taps on their own batteries and had more of the market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745718)
Are you really suggesting you wouldn't invest $7,000 in a camera just because of the need to buy a couple of new batteries? Batteries don't last more than a couple of years anyway, so they will need to be replaced at some point anyway.

I am not suggesting that. The battery issue is an example of several that have been discussed why the PMW-200 is a step backward and isn't worth $7700 (list) upgrade from the EX1(r) (save HD422) ... again, a non-broadcast user view where my $600 in 8u62 batteries are still going strong after 2 years and move freely between camera and $1600 in d-tap rigged LED lights.

Rick L. Allen July 27th, 2012 01:32 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Alister, Thanks for the review - most helpful!

Do you have a list of the frame rates and formats it records (i.e. 1080i, 720P, etc)? I can't find any info on this subject.

Eric Olson July 27th, 2012 09:15 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745718)
Are you really suggesting you wouldn't invest $7,000 in a camera just because of the need to buy a couple of new batteries?

Battery incompatibility designed solely to increase profit by increasing waste and costs for other manufacturers is bad. In the worst case, the inefficiency reaches a point that currencies and economies collapse. Then to protect the economy a government steps in with regulations ensuring all batteries are compatible. Let's not go there! Companies should act responsibly and decrease waste. Profit can be made more admirably by increasing quality and compatibility.

If a hack done by enthusiasts can raise the bitrates on the GH2 to over 50 mbit, then surely a firmware upgrade to the EX1R could do the same? Hopefully the PMW-200 offers more than that. Actually, I expect it does. In particular, I wonder if the IR problem is solved?

Vincent Oliver July 28th, 2012 02:08 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1745709)
What design flaw? My EX1 is coming up on on 5 years old now and I've never bought any special plate, nor do I personally know any fellow EX1 owners who have. You are misinformed about the camera.

The base plate on both the EX1 and EX3 are a well documented weak point, I don't think you will disagree is saying that it is not the best feature of the camera. No doubt with rough handling, or carrying the camera whilst mounted on a tripod you may have a problem with the plate breaking.

Steve Kalle July 28th, 2012 02:29 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Jensen (Post 1745709)
What design flaw? My EX1 is coming up on on 5 years old now and I've never bought any special plate, nor do I personally know any fellow EX1 owners who have. You are misinformed about the camera.

Before saying someone is misinformed, maybe you should consider that you are uninformed?

Like Vincent said, this is a well documented issue. If there was NO need for strong baseplates, then why would Olof and many other companies be making them for the EX1 & EX3?

Personally, I have gone through 3 replacement tripod plates on my EX3 because they crack so easily.

Mike Marriage July 28th, 2012 03:34 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Olson (Post 1745778)
If a hack done by enthusiasts can raise the bitrates on the GH2 to over 50 mbit, then surely a firmware upgrade to the EX1R could do the same? Hopefully the PMW-200 offers more than that. Actually, I expect it does. In particular, I wonder if the IR problem is solved?

I was told by Sony that to achieve 4:2:2 requires additional hardware. I believe that the Nanoflash uses Sony's 4:2:2 XDCAM HD encoding chip but ups the data rate. So maybe higher bitrates are theoretically possible on the 4:2:0 chip in the EX1 but as I understand it 4:2:2 (XDCAM HD) is not.

As has been said below, the EX1 and EX3's baseplates are totally under-engineered. They are prone to break and make it hard to mount the camera securely, especially the EX3.

Alister Chapman July 28th, 2012 04:09 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I think the cooling vents all over the PMW-200 are testament to the fact that if you could hack an EX to do 50Mb/s you would possibly cook the electronics and destroy the camera in the process. Sony have always said that power and heat meant that it would not be possible to upgrade an EX1 to 50Mb/s. Seeing the PMW100 and PMW200 and the additional cooling requirements I'm inclined to believe them.

I always had one of the Juice Designs base plates on my EX1"s.

Les Wilson July 28th, 2012 04:58 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745718)
...When you have a small form factor camera there is limited space for things like viewfinders. I prefer this design to the EX1. It doesn't foul my camera light or my radio mic, both of which can be mounted so they sit ahead of the LCD so I can open and close the LCD with them. Some radio mic receivers will prevent you from opening and closing the LCD, I agree, but a simple slide in $15 cold shoe extender that moves the shoe forwards will easily resolve that. Perhaps sony will include one with the camera, ...

The front shoe is the best place for receivers. Those of us who use the EX1 heavily as a handheld know that moving things off center interferes with the shotgun on the right and line of site on the left. It also makes them wobbly when moving around. Sticking them fully forward also makes them wobbly and potentially put's the antenna into frame.... especially with a WA adapter. It's a hack and I'd rather a properly designed shoe/LCD subsystem. Being able to view the LCD from the right side is a tripod thing and the PMW-200 design forfeits a good design for the shoe for what? Being able to view the screen from the right (albeit at a 90 degree angle which is somewhat of a joke) is a tripod scenario easily handled with an external monitor. I can't imagine Sony hearing otherwise if they'd gotten input from non-broadcast users.

Below is the PMW-200 design from the review at xdcam-user and the Sony's own UWP wireless in action on an EX1 during the filming of a piece by Thierry Humeau which would most certainly be in the way in the PMW-200 design.

Les Wilson July 28th, 2012 05:04 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
1 Attachment(s)
And another from Sony Professional Europe's Facebook page of clearly a non-broadcast user.

Mark Andersson July 28th, 2012 05:40 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
1 Attachment(s)
I feel your pain Les but a simple solution would be a $20 extension bar::
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/407098-REG/Rycote_037303_037303_Hot_Shoe_Extension.html
Sony could have very very easily implemented the same design as the Z1's hot shoe. But for 50 422 I don't really care :)

Les Wilson July 28th, 2012 06:14 AM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I have no pain. The shoe/LCD on the PMW-200 is IMHO a poor design defended as enabling more matte boxes while everyone else suffers with antennas in view at wide angle, flopping on front diving boards, sticking up in the case and managing yet another fiddly Frankenstein accessory.... all for a few matte boxes?

Alister Chapman July 28th, 2012 01:06 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Oh come on Les, antennas are not going to be in shot. You seem to be forgetting that with the EX1 the handle already extends beyond the end of the lens and the cold shoe is already forwards of the end of the lens, so any radio mic you attach to those cameras is already further forward than a mic fitted to the PMW-200. My radio mic has an adjustable bracket and if I use the rear mounting point I can open and close the LCD. A short extension, if you need it is no big deal whatsoever and would only place the shoe in roughly the same place relative to the lens as it is on an EX1. There are extensions like the Z1 extension that screw on, they do not flop about like diving boards, I really think you trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

Not being able to use grads on the EX1 and 305 is an issue. Some matte boxes won't fit at all and those that do have to be either rotated or removed to change filters. Many prevent you from opening and closing the LCD. A lot of light rings can't be used. Trying to use a prompter is also a nightmare because the viewfinders either end up inside the hood or the fabric of the hood tends to flop down in front of the lens because you have to get it in under the protruding mic/handle/VF. These are very real issues that are hard or impossible to get around when the camera handle extends beyond the end of the lens. Using an inch long extension, if you need it, for the mic shoe is no big deal.

David Heath July 28th, 2012 01:41 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745805)
Sony have always said that power and heat meant that it would not be possible to upgrade an EX1 to 50Mb/s. Seeing the PMW100 and PMW200 and the additional cooling requirements I'm inclined to believe them.

I believe the Canon XF105 has a power consumption of 6 watts, the XF305 of 9 watts. The XF105 has the 50Mbs codec, so it begs the question of how many of those 6 watts are the difference between what the X105 would consume if limited to 35Mbs, and the version as sold. I suspect it would be a fraction of a watt.

I do not believe power consumption is the reason the EX1 is limited to 35Mbs. It should require little more power to encode 50Mb relative to 35Mbs.

Alister Chapman July 28th, 2012 02:17 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I don't know how Canon get their power consumption so low and why Sony's is that bit higher. But I do know that the PMW100 and 200 feature a lot of cooling vents, while the EX1 does not. Both the EX1 and PMW-200 are around 13W, but there is obviously more of a heat issue somewhere in the PMW-200 than the EX1 as I don't think they would add all that ventilation for nothing. Although I suppose it may be because of the plastic body.

David Heath July 28th, 2012 02:30 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745873)
At 50Mb/s the PMW-200 draws more power and runs hotter than at 35Mb/s.

That's not what Sony say on the spec sheet for the PMW200:
Quote:

Power Consumption
Approx. 12 W (while recording, EVF On, LCD monitor Off, IO Select Off)

Approx. 14 W (while recording, EVF On, LCD monitor On, IO Select HD SDI & HD HDMI)
(See Sony : PMW-200 (PMW200) : Technical Specifications : United Kingdom )

Similar spec for the EX1 gives "Power consumption
Approx. 12.5 W (while recording, EVF On, LCD monitor Off)
"

It doesn't surprise me that the Sony cameras are about 3 watts more than the XF305 - it reflects the 1/2" chips versus 1/3".

Les Wilson July 28th, 2012 02:48 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745863)
Oh come on Les, antennas are not going to be in shot. You seem to be forgetting that with the EX1 the handle already extends beyond the end of the lens and the cold shoe is already forwards of the end of the lens, so any radio mic you attach to those cameras is already further forward than a mic fitted to the PMW-200. My radio mic has an adjustable bracket and if I use the rear mounting point I can open and close the LCD. A short extension, if you need it is no big deal whatsoever and would only place the shoe in roughly the same place relative to the lens as it is on an EX1. There are extensions like the Z1 extension that screw on, they do not flop about like diving boards, I really think you trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill...

I found a profile picture of the PMW-200 and see what you mean about the EX1 sticking out further than the the PMW-200. But with an extender on the PMW-200, it looks like the shoe woudl end up beyond where the shoe is on the EX1R. My teleprompter works just fine on the EX1R and in both studio and handheld settings, a Zylight balances nicely on the EX1R shoe without interfering or in need of an extension. My Sennheiser sk100 receiver isn't adjustable and the antenna is barely off screen when the Sony WA adapter is on.

Actually, it's not a big deal, certainly not a mountain... just another annoyance. But it does lower the light output of the Z90 to move it 10 inches back to the rear mount. I might have considered putting up with the PMW-200 flip out screen problems if the camera had the EX1R improved rotating handgrip and d-tap batteries.

Alister Chapman July 28th, 2012 03:18 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
I did check the specs and edited my post while you were writing your reply David and I see the tech specs say the same power consumption. I felt the 200 ran hotter at 50Mb/s. It certainly feels hotter than an EX1. Why do bigger chips = more power. Same number of photosites to read out. Look at the FS100 with its s35mm sensor and less than 6 watts. I realise there is only one sensor in the FS100, but it is a big one and it has more photo sites. The extra power is probably in the 14 bit DSP and maybe also to drive the express card interface for the SxS cards.

David Heath July 28th, 2012 05:56 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman (Post 1745884)
I see the tech specs say the same power consumption. I felt the 200 ran hotter at 50Mb/s. It certainly feels hotter than an EX1.

Heat input to the camera corresponds to the power in, law of physics. Temperature is a function of power input and cooling. Hence if it felt hotter than an EX1 then either it must be consuming more power or is not dissipating heat as quickly.

If the former, then either Sonys specification is wrong, or the unit you had was faulty or it was a pre-production flaw. You’d need to measure the current being drawn with a meter.
Quote:

Why do bigger chips = more power. Same number of photosites to read out.
I confess it is something I’ve been told and taken as read. It makes sense though. Bigger photosites means a bigger charge on each, so moving them around effectively means higher currents. And larger dimensions is likely to mean higher capacitances, so at the high frequencies involved that is also likely to mean more power consumed.
Quote:

Look at the FS100 with its s35mm sensor and less than 6 watts. I realise there is only one sensor in the FS100, but it is a big one and it has more photo sites.
The idea of “bigger chips = more power” is likely to be the case with all else equal, but the readout is only one factor. Processing will also consume power, and here a case of the more number crunching to be done, the higher the power consumption – hardly surprising. That’s why the C300 power consumption is relatively low (around 11 watts) and the F3 is relatively high (around 24 watts). Debayering and downconversion in real time is power hungry - direct read out of R,G,B values is much less so.

You know that I don’t believe the F3 and FS100 share the same sensor. The far lower power consumption of the FS100 I see as strong evidence that the FS100 is using simple processing, which effectively means not conventional deBayering. That implies some sort of direct read, as used in the C300 and DSLRs. It’s so much lower that it must mean a completely different system, not just a simplification.

I did initially consider that the FS100 may be doing the same readout system as the C300, with the F3 chip. But the numbers don’t work out. The FS100 results are far better than would be predicted than that system applied to a 3.3 megapixel chip. Assuming a higher pixel count therefore is a logical next step.

Mark Andersson July 28th, 2012 07:50 PM

Re: Sony PMW-200 Brings HD 4:2:2 Workflow to XDCAM Camcorder Line
 
"It certainly feels hotter than an EX1"

Hmm I wonder how these 200's will work in very hot humid conditions, where I do a lot of my work.


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