Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

OTOH, when I got my 550D, then FS100, my two EX1Rs laid unused for ages. Then (around Olympics time) they came out of retirement, clients started asking for them again. Since then, they're used on all the run and gun jobs - great workflow, easy to shoot with, pictures that won't embarrass you. The Canon look is 'very Super16' and doesn't suit everything. It also sucks at chromakey and complex WB.

The EX1R? It's the camera you jump in the back of a taxi with when the producer says 'follow them!', or when you're diving into a job where nobody knows what's happening next. You can even get away with being an overenthusiastic amateur when you're shooting low key B-Roll (dodgy situations? Been there).

Because of what I shoot, I'm better served by owning a PMW-300 and an FS700 rather than a single F5, so let's celebrate what the 300 does best.

But my EX1Rs are still shooting well, so I'll have to wait....

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Looks like another good camera for broadcast and will compliment the 400 as B-cameras very nicely.

Just need some some more work to justify changing from P2 to the sony platform.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

As an owner of a PMW320 and a Canon 550D I have to say I find that hard to believe, and it's not my experience.

For what it costs, I'm very pleased with the 550D, and frankly the quality is on a level that is hard to believe for the price. But compared side by side (and when DOF etc is not an issue) it's just not up to the PMW320, which is basically the same front end as the EX3. Not in basic image quality, though if you like shallow dof, then obviously it will give that. The 550D is much softer, and aliasing can be easily visible on moving edges, just for starters. I've even seen it alias quite badly on underwater footage, and that takes some doing owing to the softening effect of the water. (Or rather, everything suspended in the water. :-) )

I'm not doubting what you saw, but wonder if it was down to some factor not intrinsic to the camera.....?

Not viewing on full 1920x1080 screen?
Poor line up of EX3?
Errr, 550D just had a better cameraman than the EX3....?

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Couldn't agree more, EX1Rs are perfect run-and-gun cameras. I'm gonna be waiting for the XAVC variants to be coming out with improved sensors before I even consider selling my EX1R.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I have to agree with David.

I have a couple of 550D's. I got the first one following all the hype. Used it for a few shoots and then relegated it to the role of time-lapse camera (for which it is excellent). I find the 550D very soft, full of aliasing and moire and with terrible skew and jello. I guess at times the aliasing and dodgy edges make it look sharp. It does do shallow DoF well, which is just as well as it's only by having the majority of the frame out of focus that you hide all the problems. I only rarely use the 550D now, my pocket sized NEX5 is better but even that only gets used as a C camera or for shooting on holiday or where I shouldn't be shooting.

On a TV sized full HD monitor the 550D just looks soft and crude compared to an EX.

One thing I do see at the workshops I run is that those using large sensor cameras have to think much harder about their shots due to the critical focus issues. DSLR shooters in particular often have to work very hard due to the less than optimum viewfinder outputs. Because they are concentrating on their shots, they tend to be framed well and nicely composed. Meanwhile the EX (or similar) shooters can be lazy, focus is easy and they just "spray paint" shoot with the camera with little thought for composition just because getting an image is so easy. If the EX shooters took the same care to craft each shot their results would be so much better.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

At the height of the DSLR craze we hired Philip Bloom to shoot some beauty shots to go in an air show video we were producing. He had free range to do what he wanted for 2 days. At the end of the two days we had enough footage for about 2 or 3 mins of the final 2 hour cut. Yes it looked good and was a nice contrast to the normal air show footage. But thank goodness we didn't try to cover the whole show that way, the final video would have only been 10 mins long.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Hey Alister,
this is probably got nothing to do with the camera, ah?

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Not the individual camera but the style of shooting with very shallow DoF. There is a place for big sensors as well as small sensors.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Just viewed "Ride the Divide" which was shot with an EX1 and an older tape-based Sony as backup. Looked super. These cameras are alive and well.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Might have been overlooked in our discussion, but the DC IN is outside the battery compartment again! Hot swapping BP-Us with the AC Adapter in or hot swapping V-Lock or Anton Bauer by means of a BP-U installed is possible again!

And unlike the EX1, EX3, and 200, there looks to be one extra ND slot. Less reaching for the shutter to open the iris up for certain interviews now!

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

can anyone explain what is meant as a place in the camera to hold sony wireless receiver?

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Only let down seems to me that its the same old sensor, just tweaking of firmware. I thought they would have come up with a new one by now?

Otherwise nice upgrade, but it took a bit too long I think.
But as always, one have to wait until o e can see some footage coming from this new baby.

My EX-3 was the best camera buy I did financially as it has paid it self many times over, but I don't think I will get the new one as I'm in a different place in life from where I was when I bought my EX-3

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

The only let down? A MAJOR let down. Sensor or overall image quality improvement would be noted in the press release.

Since the EX1 in 2008, I've been waiting for an image quality upgrade EX1/EX3 upgrade to 1080p60 with a corresponding doubling of the recorded data rate. If delivering that quality requires a new lens, 2x/3x zoom or fixed focal length, bring that on as well. I'll buy.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I thought the expectation was that the PMW300 WILL do 1080p/60.......... with the XAVC upgrade? [EDIT - Looking back on this thread, I see Alister Chapman says to expect more information about XAVC at IBC, so hopefully the 50/60p issue may get clarified there. Currently, the expectation seems to be we may expect the higher framerates, but we'll see.)

(And doubling the frame rate does not necessarily mean doubling recorded data rate - IF it's using a long-GOP codec. Principle is that the time interval between I-frames is kept the same, it's the number of difference frames that gets bigger.)

As for quality improvements, I'd considered that a year or so back it was the codec that was seen as the limitation of such as the EX1/3, the 1/3" front end that was seen as the limitation of the corresponding Canon and Panasonic cameras. What people were asking for was either a better codec (such as XDCAM422) in the Sony cameras, or a better (1/2") front end in the others. Surely that's now been answered?

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

We could face the possibility that 4K in 1/2'' may be next in line. Remember the NX5 4K prototype?

Sony would be fools not include the Exmor R (BSI) tech in a 1/2'' or 1/3'' 4K sensor. Throw in Global Shutter and that's a winner.

In the very least, BSI has to make it into the next iteration of cameras.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I argue from the increase in image dimensions : 720p60 to 1080p60 entails a doubling of the number of pixels.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Doesn't really relate directly - that's why if you compress to JPEG in (say) Photoshop, then for a given quality the file sizes don't scale in proportion to the size of the image. (Try it -save a high res image as JPEG, then try downrezzing to half the size - so a quarter the pixels - then save as JPEG with the same quality setting.)

For 1080p/60, you really have to refer to 1080p/30 for equivalence. For the same per frame compression you need to double the bitrate if it's an Intra frame codec, but not for inter frame. In the latter case you need a lot less than double for equivalence for the reasons I gave above. This is why it's possible to code 50/60p in AVC-HD using about 28Mbs - far less than double 24Mbs.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I argue AVCHD 2.0's choice of bitrate. In the very least, Canon's XA20 and XA25's MP4 recording has 35Mbps, and the GH3 has 50Mbps Long-GOP (which is optimal)

AVCHD 2.0 handles low motion well, but once it comes to complex stuff like crashing waves, it falls apart.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I won't disagree with you about the bitrate of AVCHD 2.0 in absolute terms, it was only meant as an example of the principle - that with an interframe codec, you don't need to double the bitrate when you double the framerate. In this case, it's nowhere near double and it may well be argued that it needs to be more. (Same point could be made for normal AVCHD!)

It's also worth saying again that specifying the codec and bitrate doesn't definitively specify the quality level. All coders are not equal, and with all else equal it's possible to get better quality with a lower bitrate if a better design of coder is used. That's why broadcast coders for transmission are able to get away with such low bitrates and preserve quality. they're able to use more of the possibilities built into the spec. (Of course, you pay for it - a broadcast H264 transmission encoder will cost probably as much as a complete decent pro video camcorder!)

Taking your example of the GH3, then it's worth asking why the 50Mbs? Since it's primarily a stills camera, then at the price it's unrealistic to expect a very sophisticated encoder. That's no problem from a design point of view. Make up for it by upping the bitrate.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I wonder...... I wouldn't underestimate the engineering challenges involved. Currently, all decent 1/2" and 1/3" cameras are 3 chip. Move to 4k and how possible will it be to align 3 1/2" chips? (Even 3 2/3" chips for that matter, let alone 1/3"?)

The alternative is obviously to go to single chip designs - but that brings other issues. Smaller photosites will impact on sensitivity, and going single chip must knock down basic sensitivity by over a stop in it's own right. Never say never, and maybe we will get 4K in 1/2" eventually. Whether the inevitable compromises will outweigh the "it's 4K!" appeal remains to be seen.

There are good technical reasons why the first 4K designs to be seen are all via a large sensor.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Back illuminated sensors only bring a useful advantage when the pixel,size is extremely small. That's why you only see them used on small sized single sensor cameras that have a high pixel density on a small chip. It's to do with the ratio of the size of the light gathering pixel to the rest of the electronics. On bigger chips there is no appreciable sensitivity improvement.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Which makes it perfect for 1/3'' or 1/2'' 4K. I agree it would be pointless for BSI to be implemented on a Super35 or Full Frame camera, but if we want to go 4K while maintaining decent sensitivity on a smaller sensor, BSI is a no brainer. Current sensitivity figures would still require a 3-chip system to get decent sensitivity.

The JVC currently out there only has one part of the equation correct: the BSI sensor. The rest with poor optics completely nullifies the sensor resolving power. Even the 4 SDHC cards is a nightmare for redundancy/reliability.

Edit: Actually, there is a reason why BSI would be useful on a Super35 or Full Frame sensor: Better sensitivity for a Global Shutter sensor.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

can anyone explain what is meant as a place in the camera to hold sony wireless receiver?

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

On most current shouldermount cameras there's a slot towards the rear of the camera where you can slot in a compatible wireless mic receiver. It makes for a neat arrangement, since the connector it slots into powers the receiver and connects the audio output to the camera - no having a receiver attached to the outside of the camera with trailing power/audio cables.

Slightly surprised to see the feature on a camera such as this for reasons of size etc.......

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I agree but I wish there was more info on this, like will sony offer a dual channel receiver that fits in this slot and doesnt use the external xlrs, Im familiar with this set up on pmw-800

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

A dual channel integrated slot in receiver for a camera such as this would be a real bonus and a first, if they can keep the cost sub $1k too that will make this an ideal camera for news and sport pres.

If they can also do it like the HPX371 I have so you can assign the radio channels to tracks 1+2 but still have the XLR inputs to tracks 3+4 that would be one hell of a set-up for the money.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

And hopefully they don't firmware lock it into only Sony receivers, using a Lectrosonics UHF would be nice.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

BSI suffers from significantly more dark noise and crosstalk compared to normal front illumination which more than negates any sensitivity improvement if the pixel is larger than 2 microns. A 4K half inch sensor would have pixels around 1.7 microns so is would be a borderline case for BSI. In a 3 chip design the extra dark noise would be an issue. I'm not sure that a global shutter will work with BSI as the same substrate layer as the image well layer is used for the read out memory in most of the better performance sensors. The read out cell is basically an image well divided in two, one to capture light the other to store the charge and this must be on the same substrate layer.

In addition with such small pixels diffraction effects would be significant, so your useable aperture range would be small, I estimate diffraction limiting being significant from f4 so you'll only likely see a useable aperture range of 2 or 3. stops. 4K really needs a bigger sensor if you want the kind of performance and flexibility that an EX or PMW cameras offers today.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I hadn't considered that, but of course you are absolutely correct

Alister, I earlier wondered "Move to 4k and how possible will it be to align 3 1/2" chips?" - do you have any thoughts on that? If it was feasible, it may at least lessen some of the sensitivity disadvantages that 1/2" single chip 4k would otherwise bring.
And really, that's probably the bottom line. It begs the question "how big?" Bearing in mind Alisters point about diffraction limiting alone, then for current HD 1/3" is barely good enough, it really needs to be 1/2", or even more.

Double the photosite count in each direction, and 2/3" for 4k is the equivalent to 1/3" for HD. Since the whole idea behind 4k is to get a "wow" factor, I'm inclined to say a fair bit bigger than 2/3" is necessary, otherwise you may just as well stay with HD.

So if 2/3" 4K isn't such a good idea, what about broadcasters looking to do such as 4K live sport? Won't the lens issues with s35 sensors tend to cause problems? Maybe not if the lenses are built with much smaller max apertures than we're currently used to. Since cameras with s35 sensors are inherently more sensitive than smaller sensors, it will probably make little overall difference to the light levels they can work under.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Back when the broadcasters such as Sony and Philips (BTS) began with HD camera's, they settled in on the 1" format.. Such cameras as the Sony HDC-300 and HDC-500 and the BTS LDK9000 used 1" lenses.. you still see some of them for sale at times.

It might just make a revival, though the bigger the chipsize goes, the bigger the lenses will have to be.. Especially for the bigtime zooms that people are used to in broadcasting..

From an auction on ebay:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...k3rZQ60_57.jpg
That is a HV12x10 lens next to a normal broadcast wide angle lens (Canon 9x3.8 1/2".. same in size/model as the J9ax5.2... which are not that small either)..

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

But as said above, that's only true if you're keeping the same maximum f stop. Reduce that and you can build bigtime zooms for bigger chips without a big size increase.

And also as said before, bigger chips means better sensitivity - combine with smaller f stops and it means the same low light performance.

Since s35 already has a lot of legacy in respect of lenses, I'd tend to go for that. I hear what you say about 1", but it means yet another lens format, and I can't believe any of the older 1" lenses will give adequate performance for 4k?

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Wow, I had no idea BSI had these issues and that it can't work together with global shutter...

It's looking like 4K sensors in standard broadcast sizes have major hurdles to overcome before they make it into cameras sized like the 300 or 350.

We may see global shutter 1080 sensors in that size before 4K. Problem though is that either 4K is going to be mainstream when global shutter 1080 sensors become affordable or ignorance on the manufacturer's part means the 1080 generation remains mostly rolling shutter based.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

some videos appeared a few days ago in case anyone missed it.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

As for the shoulder design, I think my EX1R with a 96Wh battery is similar when it comes to that support.

I'm very tempted, but would much rather wait for XAVC and 1080p50/60

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

The PMW-300 suffers from worse burnout of highlights, but at least the dynamic range is greater than the EX3. Thanks for putting this up, Brent.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

The camera is much better than these clips make it appear. I suspect there is some extra clipping occurring during the encoding.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

Alister, Will you in the future explain what sony mean by a internal slot in the camera for audio receiver?

I was wondering if they mean that the camera can accept a dual channel audio receiver and be able to record a stereo shotgun with its 4 channel recording capability.

Thanks

Brent

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

I'm very confused by the receiver slot statement because as far as I know the camera doesn't have one. None of the prototypes have had one unless I've missed something, it's not really big enough for a receiver slot.

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

me too, I saw this discussuion on able cine

Sony Announces the New PMW-300 | CineTechnica

Re: Sony unveils the EX3 successor: PMW-300
 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/983689-REG/sony_pmw_300_xdcam_hd_camcorder.html
FYI