Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

New firmware update for PXW-X200:

Upgrade is free and will be available Spring 2015
New Features & Improvements:
● Streaming via wired/wireless LAN or 3G/4G mobile network is activated.
● MI Shoe is activated to support the HVL-LBPC battery video light and UWP-D11/D12 wireless microphone system.
● GPS data can be recorded as metadata in XAVC-I and XAVC-L format.
● Simultaneous Recording feature is activated. Camcorder can record simultaneously on two media, for example creating one version for editing and one for archiving at the same time to enhance workflow.

MI Shoe and Simultaneous recording is something i'l be using often!

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

I used it with SXS-1 with no problem at all.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Aside from the wifi and other doodads, would any users familiar with the pmw200 and pxwx200 like to comment on the quality of the footage when working in a comparable zoom range?

Are the 1/2" sensors significantly improved etc... We are looking for a camera with 3 rings for manual controls and by all accounts the mechanical nature of the lens on both of these cameras is nicer than the x160 / x180 so i am trying to determine if i would be better of chasing a 'newish' pmw 200 as their prices are lower than their replacement.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

My apologies Samer. That's very good news then because I only had the Pro + supplied with the camera for the trial and was led to believe by the supplier that for XAVC-I the Pro cards were required. I now believe this only applies to some of the 4K cameras such as the F5 and 55 using the higher bit rates. Also good news to hear that simultaneous recording is coming with the next firmware upgrade.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

If you don't see any advantage in Xavc vs xdcam HD 50mbs (I personally don't!) and 17x vs 14x zoom range (in this case i do) then i would pick a good used PMW-200!
I personally own and use both PMW-200 and PXW-X200 and don't see any difference in picture quality!
I've decided to pick the newer X200 rather than buy a second used PMW-200 only for the fact that i still use IMX 50 for broadcast tv that still use sd and don't want hd, and the PMW-200 have only dvcam not IMX 50.Another advantage was the new lens! which is a nice thing to have rather than a 14x.
I also mentioned in another post that the viewfinder is unusable but now i take that back! after tweaking it a little bit here and there now it's definitely better.
Christopher Young,no need to apologize at all! :-)
Do you guys have your own "best" or preferred sunhood for the the PMW-200/X200's lcd!?
I have one but can't say i'm totally satisfied!
Thanks

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Thank you Samer,

That is a very useful bit of information which will help me with realy help with our planning and budget!

I can understand grading pro's getting value out of the increased bit depth but most of our projects are very low budget with only the odd job getting professional grading time.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Uh-oh, my eyeballs wearing contacts cannot focus on the LCD panel with the X180 pressed against (not on top) of my shoulder. The viewfinder is not sharp or large enough to hold the camera out at a distance of another 6 inches, and the weight of the camera is too heavy, so this presents a problem for me. I can only manually focus using the EVF, but this means holding the camera's weight out in front of my face, and the SteadyShot, On or Active, is not capable of eliminating shivering in this way. All of my footage appears as if someone is trying to use a screwdriver to remove screws from the unit while I shoot. :(

Obviously this is an issue with my eyeballs, not with the camera. The other painful reality is that the WiFi function is broken, the WiFi module goes on and off, cannot maintain a connection. Not the connection, but it actually drops on and off the air from my WiFi sniffer. I tried a new Verizon 4G XLTE modem, but it gives the red X, so have not been able to try the $1500 extra live streaming function yet. Will try the actual Verizon modem specified in the manual tonight and report back. If that doesn't work, then that is enough reason for me to return this camera.

I am saddened by the fact that this really is the best camera for this task, but my eyeballs and the faulty networking have killed the concept for me at this time. Crossing fingers that I can make this work. I miss shooting on my X70.

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

One low-cost solution regarding your eyeball problems is to have a medium-sized Full HD 7-8" tablet mounted somewhere on your camera at an angle or distance where you can better see what's on the screen. It won't be a replacement for your viewing but a supplementary one. My tablet of choice when I use it to view and control (some of the key functions such as zooming, recording/stopping) my AX100 is the Nexus 7. It's has an excellent display, lightweight, compact, cheap and best of all an NFC to let you bypass most of the Wi-Fi connection procedures that otherwise are required for NFC-less devices. I guess the android Sony Playmemories Mobile should work with your camera. Cell phone or small tablet pivotable mounts are easy to find these days you can find one to fit your camera.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

I do have a nexus 7, but unfortunately, I need a semi compact fast action run and gun ENG rig. Even a diopter attached to the LCD would not work, if that were the setup I need, I would simply get an HPX600. :-)

And the WiFi module itself may be my problem, I believe it is broken. I can connect to Play Memories with NFC, but the actual WiFi signal transmitting from the adaptor cuts on and off. Not simply a disconnect, but the actual broadcasted WiFi turns off, as can be observed by a WiFi sweeper app. I hope I can swap out the module with B&H for testing rather than shipping the entire camera back for that problem. No one will buy my X180 used with a faulty WiFi feature.

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Just did a quick side by side of my X180 (18db) vs my X70 (33db), both wide open iris, and maximum gain at 1/30 and 1/60. The X70 is a full stop FASTER in low light than the X180. The X180 stops at 18db.....why is that? More gain please Sony.

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Geez, Paul, whatever you are doing, please keep doing it. You are checking out all the cams I am looking at and trouble shooting my issues for me!

Seriously, I find your feedback invaluable.


Tim

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Thanks for the appreciation Tim.

As for you asking about the X70 purchase, I think my X70 looks BETTER at wide angle than my X180, but when you push in on the zoom and loose that 20MP interpolation or whatever it's called, the X70 gets a lot more "Handycam", especially as the gain increases. There is another person with a JVC HM200 that is reporting unexpectedly good low light results. The manual controls on that camera, with low light at or possibly a bit better than the X70, would put that on my radar. I may be suggesting an HM200 to my station as a live shot camera pending more reviews and direct comparisons against known performing models. :)

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Hi everyone. I was just about to pull the trigger on an X180 when I read this thread. Does anyone have updated/further thoughts on the X180 and the X200? I am also strongly considering the Panasonic PX270, but like the wider zoom on the X180 and the ability to do 120 fps. However, if there are real flaws with the camera (focus assist, soft zoom, etc), then I may go with the Panny. Thanks.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Hi Steve,
As I continue to use the X180, I seem to keep finding more uses for it / things that I like about it. Of course the big one is the 25x zoom range - which I made use of (needed) last week for a multicamera live cooking competition shoot. With the extended zoom range we were able to shoot CUs of food cooking (shooting into overhead mirrors) as well as zoom out for wide coverage as needed. It intercut great with PMW200 and F3 cameras as well for our live feed. I've also become a big fan of using the built-in variable ND filter, and love the fact that I can switch gains without the image suddenly changing in brightness. Both the VF and the Flip-out screen are big improvements over my PMW200. Plus having the Waveform/Vectorscope as well as Histogram options is a big improvement. My biggest complaint is that the responsiveness of my LANC zoom control isn't as good as my (special connector) EX zoom controls on the PMW200. I keep several cameras around and try to use the right one(s) for each assignment - and I find that the X180 is getting more and more use.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Thanks Dave. How do you find the lens wide open -- I've seen reports that it is soft? Also, how do the focus aids work -- I've also heard people struggle with them. One report that seemed pretty thorough came from tubeshooter. Thanks.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

I just received my X200's today and still have the X180 on demo and here's a super quick test I did before I need to get out to a client shoot:

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Hi Steve,
To my eye the X180 isn't quite as sharp as my PMW200 wide open, but I've been ok with that as a tradeoff for the increased zoom range. (It's also certainly not as sharp as my F3 with Nikon glass, but as mentioned I've been able to intercut the three without any real problems.) But I also tend to reduce the detail level on the cameras a bit as well...
In terms of focus, I don't tend to use any of the auto-focus functionality -- I keep it on manual 99.9% of the time. The focus expansion button does get used a lot for checking -- and when outside I find the viewfinder fine for operating (as opposed to the VF on the F3, which I abandon in favor of a Zacuto EVF.)
Interestingly enough (speaking of sharpness) last week I worked on a couple of multi-F3-camera shoots for which we rented 19-90mm and 85-300mm Cabrios -- and even after verifying back focus with a large monitor I never felt I was getting the same kind of sharpness that I obtain from the Nikon 28-70 2.8. I suppose I'd call the cabrios 'sufficiently sharp'...
Also -- The exposure comparison from Rob is about what I'd expect - with 1/3" sensors having about 1/2 the area of 1/2" sensors -- though once you get past the exposure difference, the sharpness difference doesn't seem that great. Too bad there's not a split screen with the two cameras (at diff f/stops) comparing the look of the same basic exposure level for the finished images...

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Thanks Rob and Dave. The X200 clearly has a more sensitive sensor -- impressive.

For manual focus, do you use peaking? How well does it work? Thanks.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

I'm personally not a huge peaking fan. I do keep one of my assign buttons available for turning it on and off, but for the most part I'll use the 'focus mag' function.
Interestingly enough, on the X180 punching in with Focus Mag doesn't disable the peaking.
I'll tend to set the peaking level pretty low, since it seems to me that some peaking may still occur in 'not quite as sharp' areas. For some things it can be useful - such as helping me stay confident that my interview subject is still in focus after a series of forward and backward leans. Once I establish critical focus, I'll take a look at how the peaking plays (especially if the subject has a beard or other facial hair.)
Of course the biggest aspect of maintaining focus is getting your fingers used to how far to pull on the lens...

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Sweeeeet! It is important to keep in mind that the X180 is rated at (NTSC) f9@2000, and the X200 is rated at f12@2000. That means the X200 has an extra 5db of apparent gain/sensitivity. Not to be ignored though is that these tests were performed at f4, and the X180 can open up to f1.6 vs the X200 at f1.9. That gives the X180 back 3db of that apparent lost gain/sensitivity.

That still leaves the X200 2db ahead wide open, but when you factor in the lens ramping, where the X180 will only be at 1/3 zoom range when the X200 is 1/2 through it's zoom, you get back more light sensitivity in the X180 which should have less ramping at that point of it's range. Would be interesting to see both cameras wide open at 18db in the darkness, that's how I use my camera, and that is the limiting factor for most ENG shooters. :)

Thanks Rob!

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

I'll do a low light shot with both wide open at 18dB and post the results.
I'll also do wide open (widest iris) on both at 0db and have a look at the lens ramping through the zoom, although this is not actually shown on the X200 in the LCD, whereas the X180 does display this.
I shot with the same settings on both to see what low performance difference was and when I used a white card and waveform monitor the X200 is roughly 9dB more sensitive at the settings I used ie. same settings for both cameras!

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

That's about 1/2 stop more sensitive than the published figures would indicate. You never know till you put he dang things side by side! I put the X180 f9@2000 f1.6 up against my work JVC HM790 f10@2000 f1.4, and the X180 is at least a STOP more sensitive. Again, not what the specs would indicate. The JVC's are the WORST cameras I have ever had the displeasure to be forced to use at night.

My X70 and X180 BOTH hit their smallest ramped aperture at around 65% of the optical zoom range.

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Well, my new X200 just arrived. Trying to adjust to the yellow/green tinted viewfinder.

Very first observation after that...."Wow, this camera isn't any better in low light than my X180.". That was a major bummer.

Anyway, is there a way to assign a SLS value (1/30) to the shutter switch or any other physical switch/button like on the X180? I use that function for literally half the clips I shoot at night, I am toggling it more than the iris.

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

This just in, PXW-X200 EVF is disabled when network functionality is enabled. This is a wonderful revelation for me, as my contact lenses preclude me from seeing the LCD, and the camera live streams whenever it is used.

I am just not having any luck with Sony products........

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Hey Paul, since I hardly ever use the EVF, that was not something I came across, so "good" to know.
Wifi disables a number of features that can be useful so I'll add this to the list...

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

My new baby is ready for live news broadcasting now. The Genustech VCT14 adaptor fits just right, and the USB modem connector is a massive improvement over the X180. Oh yeah, that is my Panasonic AG-MC700P short shotgun microphone with OEM windscreen. Going to replace it with a Sanken CS3e soon. That will ruin the uncomplicated ergonomics, but vastly improve the audio.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Rob, the issue isn't so much the "WiFi", but if you have the Network/Proxy menu item ON. Even if I have the WiFi or Modem disconnected, or no SD card in the proxy slot, it still deactivates the EVF, 1080p60, and all those other things. Other stupid irritations include 1/60 shutter being the SLOWEST possible in 1080p60 mode, no color bars available in SLS mode etc. It's almost as if someone rushed the firmware out the door without being able to complete it, as so many of these things don't seem to be related in any mechanical or electrical way, it makes no sense.

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Not wanting to take this thread off track but from what I've seen and read the last 12-18 months, Paul's statement is becoming worryingly common with Sony's latest (and very frequent) new camera releases.

To quote Paul: "It's almost as if someone rushed the firmware out the door without being able to complete it."

What's even more worrying is that it can then take months and months for the "beta" firmware to get fixed with updates to sort out annoying issues. Often the issues users find are ones that should never had made it to the marketplace in professional cameras (and in some cases it's looking like they'll never be fixed).

Not knocking Sony (I've used their consumer and then professional cams for 15 years)…well I am knocking them a bit... but some other camera manufacturers take a different approach. Just an observation and certainly one that would worry me if I was to buy another Sony cam anytime soon.

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

The word "cannot" appears 172 times in the version 13 operations manual for the X200. That is an average of 10 times a page, not joking. :-)

Paul

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Close the LCD completely and the EVF will come on even with Network enabled!
A really strange/quirky way of getting the EVF to work.
It's totally inferior to the X180 EVF both in picture quality and "activation" method!!!
Why not have the eye sensor like the X180???

Re: X180 or X200, trying to decide
 

Yeah, the LCD/EVF situation on the X200 is atrocious! It's not just an evaluation of the camera, it is the evaluation of the camera vs it's own cheaper sibling, which has the same LCD even, but it doesn't have a hard green tint to it! The only use I can find for the EVF on the X200 is framing and color accuracy checking. It cannot be used to judge exposure or focus, not for me at least. The X180 has a very accurate (if a bit cool) LCD, but the EVF is what I used on it 90% of the time. The EVF on the X180 is sharper for me than the LCD, so I used it for critical focusing. This crap with the EVF deactivating with the LCD in network mode is killing me, because checking if my colors (street lights) or white balance is off requires slamming the LCD closed. At least the X200 LCD doesn't sag like my X180, which rests about 5-7 degrees down on the far left side, crooked. :-)

Paul