It appears that they are indeed using CMOS chips... if this qualifies as confirmation -- check this out: http://www.videomag.gr/cms/index.php...k=view&id=1263 -- note the "3CMOS" in that image?

What I really notice is that this image is not the XDCAM HD EX. Note that the lens is not the full 3 ring Fujinon and the camera is labeled HD XMCAM.

This is an entirely new camera if it really exists.

-gb-

Yes,

Many of the buttons are in different positions and it looks less complicated!

A cheaper version in beta form perhaps? Z1 type replacement?

Cheers Vaughan

C'mon people, its a (crappy) vaporware mock up, don't belive everything you see on the net...

That particular image is a concept mockup from an earlier stage of development.

Is there an echo in here? ;)

Ha! Ha! I was showing my support for your theory...

:o)

Aint no theory, got told that by someone at Sony. Should be seeing the holy grail itself later today, although this post may get deleted after the non-disclosure signing...

You're seeing it...? Drool!

Just sign the NDA "M. Mouse" and then you can tell us all ;-D

Easy there Jamie. I don't know why they need to show a mock-up when the real XDCAM EX has already been unveiled. I'm inclined to believe that it is a mock-up as you say, so why didn't the website obtain pictures of the real thing?

Besides, with everything moving towards flash based acquisition, it's not out of the realm that a lower cost camera with less professional orientation such as the one pictured might get produced.

And no, I don't believe everything I see on the net.

-gb-

I'm pretty sure that picture has been knocking about for ages now, your comment on the movement of the market is completely valid - but would a lower-cost camera still be branded with cinealta? I'll find out for sure later :)

XDCAM HD has always carried the CineAlta badge (albeit silver in color, as the gold is reserved for the higher-end, more expensive gear). So it logically follows that since XDCAM HD is branded CineAlta, so too is XDCAM EX.

Yeah, of course, but we were talking about the possibility of that mock-up being a completely different, almost pro-sumer model that would be cheaper than the EX...

It has already happened in the minds of those who used the original high-end Cinealta. They weren't happy to see that badge on the side of the current XDCAM HD units.

I would agree that it's a mock-up, I just hadn't seen that picture before and it took me by surprise. You're going to like the 'holy grail' as you put it. ;-)

-gb-

These are mock up pictures that came out around the time of NAB. Old stuff. I guess no one really paid that much attention then with all the excitement? Just more speculation until the camera actually comes available.

If the camera has cmos, it would not be as interesting to me as a second camera, since it would be harder to match with the F350. What I want to know is when that new disc reader/writer will be available?

I believe the PDW-U1.

Sorry, in my opinion that's not a likely possibility at all. Like Greg, I had not seen this image before but I'll put credence into Alex Leith's assertion that this particular image is a concept mock-up from an earlier stage of XDCAM EX development.

#@?!

I said it was it wasnt a possibility and I said it was an old mock up...all this mis-quoting is making me look like a really bad Sony product specialist :(

Out of curiosity Jamie, as a Sony product specialist, are you a direct employee, an independent contractor, etc?

I only ask because I don't know how Sony UK is set up. I myself belong to a group in the US called XDCAM ICE team. Independent Certified Experts. Roughly ten of us from around the US that assist with product training and demos from an actual user perspective.

-gb-

Easy does it, Jamie... we're all friends here. I did not misquote you. I quoted you directly from your earlier post in this thread. If it seems lifted out of context, then I apologize. You had said "we were talking about..." but in actuality the only person talking about it was Vaughn Wood in this post. You then asked "would a lower-cost camera still be branded with cinealta," to which I replied that it's been done before. For everyone: let's please keep our emotions in check and our attitudes positive at all times -- thanks in advance,

Here you go Chris.

http://www.xdcamuser.co.uk/articles.php

Near the bottom of the page under concept drawing. I remember seeing this come out around NAB.

Sorry Chris, I meant that #@?! in a completely friendly way, I realised why you thought that - sorry I didnt make it clear. It's been quite a slow day and I'm rather bored and frustrated :) I guess my sense of humour and sarcasm don't quite come over that well in a serious forum, apologies from across the pond.

Greg - I work for one of the (more successful) sony specialist dealers in the UK, I think theres 10-13 now but not many with the knowledge/customer base we have.

Transfer rates in real time
 

So just to be sure...

In terms of real time how fast will the cards transfer to say an HDD.

It would seem that the pic in the link is an old one and the video is the newest version. Did I read correctly in that the EX will be about the size and weight of the V1 ???

Mike

From what I saw at NAB, I think it will be a bit heavier than V1U. More like a bulky z1u.

Held one at NAB for about 10 minutes. About the size of the HVX200, maybe a tad smaller.

-gb-

Hmmmm
 

I like my Z1. The tape issues I was having recently actually were not the fault of the camera but that is another story.

I use a Glidecam without the vest and really would like the thing to weigh right around the Z1` wieght

The article said it would be about the size and weight of the V....

It did not seem that way to me from the NAB Vid either.

When will we know any new real news?

Thanks

Mike

Official launch is at IBC next week

Thursday 6th of September is when Sony will have their press event. Usually the Sony IBC press release appears on the internet a day or so before IBC and there may be some info in that.

The EX is 2.2 kg (Z1 - 2.1 kg); this should give you the idea of its size, as well.

I'm hoping it's either something like the tech going into the CCDs in the high-end new Sony HDCAMs or CMOS. Even Nikon DSLRs are going CMOS now.

heath

Sweet
 

Perfect weight!

I love it even more... :)

So do we know how fast the vs real time the download speed is +/-

I would assume it is dependant on the data rate it was shot in. I have read 2 or 3x real time... loading from card to Hard Disk

MRW

Heath, you should be aware that all recent Nikon DSLRs (excluding the D2H) use Sony sensors. This includes the CMOS D2x and the new CMOS D3 and D300. These new D3 series include noise reduction included at each sensor site like Canon have had for a while so noise performance should rival (or as rumoured surpass) Canon's noise performance.

Hopefully this technology will role on to Sony developed sensors for video cameras as well which will be great for increasing sensitivity of a sensor while keeping noise to a minimum.

It is also interesting to note that the Nikon D3 has a Sony 35mm sensor and still comes in with a RRP of only US$5000. Excluding the cost of the lens on the front, how come the video industry still insists on charging US$8000 ($3K more) for a camera based on a set of 3 tiny little 1/2" sensors... The D3 can produce & process 108 megapixels of 14bit pixel data per second (9fps at 12.1MP).

There's a lot more to a video camera than that. Don't forget the audio processing which is going to be head and shoulders above what you'll get from a digital still camera in movie mode.

And can the D3 'sustain' that 9fps, or is that a burst mode? The video camera has a lot of demands placed on the circuitry to process that much data in 30 to 60 fps.

-gb-

The short burst mode of a D-SLR still camera is not a legitimate comparison to the indefinitely sustained thirty frames per second requirement for video... the argument re: D-SLR sensors whose gates cannot be cleared fast enough to accommodate High Definition video at 60i or 60p, vs. the smaller video-specific sensors that can, is totally invalid and holds no water at all.

Plus, one must factor in the number of units sold.

Companies like Canon or Nikon sell way more DSLR's than Sony or Panasonic sell prosumer or professional video cameras.

This lowers the price of the DSLR's

The 9fps is not a burst mode, it is the contineous high shooting speed. The first thing that stops the camera from shooting is the inability to write that much data out fast enough (ie CF cards arn't fast enough). The main reason it can't go faster is the physical shutter mechanism a DSLR has the video camera doesn't need to worry about.

You compare

12.1MP @ 9fps = 108.9Mp/s

2MP @ 30fps = 60Mp/s

2MP @ 60fps = 120Mp/s

You can see there is very little difference in the sustained data throughput of these cameras at 60p. At 30p the DSLR has a lot more data to move. Sensors can be designed to output their data faster than previous models, Nikon have done this with their D3

Audio is probably one of the simplest parts on the video camera. Each type of camara has its differences of course, a video camera doesn't have to worry about a shutter and mirror, DSLRs are built much more robust than any handycam I have held, and it has to be able to record RAW and compressed data out, a video has contineous data flow and compression etc I don't see anything that means a video camera is that much more complex or expensive to design/manufacture than a high end DSLR. This is being prooven by RED who have a 35mm sensor in their camera, and guess what, their volume will be much less than this EX camera yet they are keeping their body price much lower comparing sensor size with price.

With supply and demand, it is Sony's choice to price high, sell less units but make more money per unit. They are just fortunate there isn't agressive competition in the video industry, everyone is just a little more interested in their profits than bettering their competition, unlike Nikon v Canon. Sony pretty much dominates this market and they know it. I can only hope that Red's pocket cam eventuates to something to make Sony change their approach.

If you think there is much more to a video camera such as the EX than a camera such as the D3 I think you are only fooling yourself, cause you arn't fooling me.

All just my personal opinion of course.

One other thing is the cost of the glass. Lenses for still cameras don't have to worry about things such as breathing while video lenses do. This adds to the complexity of the lens design.

I still maintain that the audio processing circuitry adds to the cost. How many DSLR cameras can do 4 channel audio?

As was mentioned, higher volume of sales for DSLR cameras means they can be sold at a lower cost.

In any case, we're drifting way off the thread topic so let's return to discussing the XDCAM EX and/or the high end XDcAM HD 422/50 mbit cameras.

I'm not fooling myself because I spent a quarter century working in the semiconductor industry. I've seen what goes into the design and production of devices. You wouldn't believe how tight the process parameters are and having to use high spec components exacts a premium for anything electronic because the device yields are lower.

-gb-

I didn't mean to start an HD vs. DSLR debate when I was talking about Nikon going CMOS and how I'd love to see the EX have it. Same type of chip, different application, architecture, etc.

heath

If it really was that easy to make a DSLR chip that can do video then I am sure that Nikon or whoever would have done it a long time ago, lets face it if they did bring out a DSLR that could take both stunning stills and full resolution video I am sure it would sell like hot cakes.

Heat is a massive issue. The energy used for high speed readouts generates heat. The more data, the more heat. You can get away with it for short periods because the chips get a chance to cool off between bursts, but when you have to do it continuously you need a design that is not going to cook the CCD's or CMOS as hot sensors leads to picture grain, noise and ultimately failure.

Take a DSLR and start running off bursts of stills. Then compare the noise in the first and last, it will increase and get worse and worse as the chips warm up.

SLR lenses don't need to accurately track focus as you zoom, they don't need to have autofocus and exposure systems that are (or should be) transparent in operation.

Personally I'm still not sold on CMOS. The rolling shutter and noise suppression algorithms can look just plain ugly on video. To my eye most CMOS camcorders generally seem to have a far more "electronic" and less "organic" look than CCD cameras.

And I don't feel that this makes up for the marginal increase in latitude gained from the individual photo-site addressing. I'd rather stick an ND grad on the front.

I'm hoping that the "specially developed new sensor" for this camera (if it is CMOS... which I'm guessing is pretty likely) is free from rolling shutter, at least? If that's possible with a CMOS?

The technology all ready exists; it's called a global shutter which, I believe, has been used in CCDs and now finding its way in CMOS chips. Let's hope that Sony will employ this in the EX.