...David's comment about the Sony F3 sensor being specifically designed for digital cine might be one of the reasons for the big price difference between the AF-100 and the F3.

I still want to see a proper competitive test between these two cameras, to find out how much performance I might be missing at a $11,000 lower price. ( no way in h*ll I could afford a $16,000 camera body for my type of work )

Personally I think Sony has a tough hill to climb if they don't introduce a more affordable large sensor camera for the prosumer crowd.

If your work is as such it doesn't make fiscal sense at 16K, and you've been using EX1s and such happily, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that 11K is not going to be worth it, even if the F3 bests the AF100 with noise levels and latitude, which I suspect it will. Sony is betting on this sensor, more or less, from what I can tell. Panasonic has a history of tuning cameras for higher noise/lower cost, which has actually worked very well in the market they've pursued.

One other note for those considering this for event work with that upcoming zoom Sony's talking about: That zoom is going to be at best an F4 lens to make weight and price work. That essentially puts it back in EX1 territory for how it's going to behave where light is scarce, at best. There's no free rides. You want to shoot F2 with a big 'ole sensor, you have to pay with either weight or money (probably both), or give up zoom. Not to mention how difficult focus is going to be. Think twice about that, Canons might be a better option that way, believe it or not. Or mitigate with an AF100s sensor size.

Yes, and it's pretty certain the AF101 will also have to pixel bin. Because of the optical low-pass filter, this won't give the aliasing here that the sensor gives in video mode in a still camera - the implication of an OLPF is it means the camera then becomes unsuitable for stills use. Not a problem in the AF101, but obviously would be in a GH-1 !

But there's no getting away from the fact that pixel-binning means a high percentage of the photosites go unused - hence the sensitivity won't be what you initially expect from such a large sensor. As the link you post says, the Sony sensor seems to have fewer, larger photosites - though more than adequate for HD video.
ISO ratings don't really tell you a lot by themselves, as there is no standard for the noise level they get referred to. Hence a given ISO rating for a camera can be quite arbitrary - it all depends what you define as the nominal noise level of the camera.

Early reports seem to indicate an extremely low nominal noise level for the F3. This is important if the high potential advantages of 10 bit recording and S-log are to make any sense. It will be interesting to see if this can be achieved whilst still maintaining a decent ISO figure.

As you say, the penalty will obviously be price. But compare it with decent 2/3" cameras such as Panasonics HPX3700, or Sonys PDW700, and it may be seen as a steal for a lot of work such as budget TV drama, otherwise made on 2/3" cameras.

I thought the Epic was around $28K, although perhaps a RED One part exchange could be part of the $19.5K equation.

Certainly the Sony price does seem uncompetitive in the current market, which seems to have embraced the flawed DSLRs rather than even the RED One. Although, as has been pointed out there are market sectors in which the F3 has potential and not everyone wants to shoot RAW.

Interesting that the sensor can actually do 1080 60p... I'm surprised that they don'y all that for external recording. As always I suppose proof is in the images and fingers crossed Sony listen to all the moans and have the cam out for around 11K.

The vast majority of people first getting the Epics will be Stage 2 people, who will be getting at $19.5k. That's with a lot of AKS to make the body usable at that price.

IMHO.... too close to the specs of the AF100... too close to the price of RED. Its an unfair generalization, but I think that's what a lot of people will see when they either buy the AF100 or a RED instead of this. Too bad though, I would have bitten at the $10k mark.... maybe. The no-overcrank would make me hesitate.

Specs of the F3 sound so awesome... too bad none of the people who waited patiently for the news will ever own one.

We will have to wait and see what Final street price is and how well this Camera performs but I am very disapointed in the fact that you will need to buy a software upgrade for dual link HD-SDI to do 1080p 60 overcrank (who knows what crazy sum of $$ they may charge for that feature as it opens up S-LOG as well) It really needs to be able to shoot 120fps and HDRx for this price...as if they really are trying to compete with RED and it is not even 3K at least... I was thinking my next step is going to be a RED but than heard the rumors of this beast then announcment fizzled on features and specs for the price... Now ease of use compared to RED RAW maybe a year or two ago could have been an argument but now RED RAW has very good workflows in place so tough call... I will continue to use EX and patiently await footage and reviews of this and hoepfully Sony proves us all wrong somehow or they announce another CAM with the features/specs and price we all were hoping for. If I am going to drop 16- 23k though it better be in direct competition with the competition otherwise I drop the additional 10k and get the real deal or jump on the lower end till something better comes along as by 2012 I should be able to shoot the end of the world on a New Mega Epic sensor at 480fps in 5k :)

I suspected that could be a factor in how you came up with the figure.

I don't think Sony have given detailed specs for the sensor, so you can't really tell if it's 4k, 3k or 2k. In the past, Sony have gone with their RGB stripe design on their professional single sensor video cameras, rather than a Bayer design.

Great points Jason. At that price I would expect at least 120fps if not higher. Even the Scarlet will be 120fps and burst to 150fps. And this should be out similar time.

Here's some comment on the F3.

Film and Digital Times: Blog

Some light has been shed on the intended use and market of the F3 by Sony's workflow diagram. It is very clear indeed that this is aimed at serious filmmakers who are using big gear like the F35 alongside it. In the diagram the 35Mb/s SxS footage is designed to be used as proxy files with a burned in LUT for offline editing, and isn't intended at all as the main recording method.

This makes much more sense now. The camera was designed to be used alongside cameras like the F35, companies that already use HDCAM SR, and rental houses. This is made clearer by one of the marketing managers at Sony who said "We want every SRW-9000 renter to own this camera," and "If you have a first-unit F35 or SRW-9000, this would be a perfect second camera." They are also developing cards for the system that will record SR directly.

I think in this case the people who are complaining about the price are trying to fit what they think the intended market for this camera should be to themselves, while in reality Sony is intending this for a totally different market altogether. A market that thinks £15k is pocket change for a cheap second camera. With 63db S/N ratio that makes it far less noisy than even a PDW-500. With S-log capture outputted at 10-bit 4:2:2 the grading capabilities of it will be absolutely immense.

Remember, we're talking about a second camera here for HDCAM SR shoots, that perhaps could be repurposed for indie use by some who have money, and *not* an indie camera in the first instance. You *could* record to the SxS media as your main recording, but that isn't how the camera was intended to be used.

I can further understand it too because I know companies like the BBC who have been shooting on the SRW-9000 have been using cameras like the EX1 and EX3 as a camera for specialist instances, but don't like using them due to the limitations of matching cameras and the compression. So the F3 is probably a camera that they could use very well (and may even have asked Sony for) as it will integrate seamlessly into the HDCAM SR workflow and camera capabilities. Something that the AF101 cannot do due to the lack of dual link SDI, and lack of LUT output abilities etc.

I also still think that Sony will announce a low cost camera very soon to properly compete with the AF100. Sony will be well aware that sales of the EX line will drop as a result of it and will have to compete with their own product. I'm even more convinced due to the mysterious thing under the cloth in the F3 teaser photo.

Mark my words, there'll be a Sony version of Apple's "One more thing" moment quite soon. It's too predictable (in a good way).

Spot on Simon.

I don't get the comparison between the F3 and the AF100. The F3 is better compared to the F35 or Alexa. For the money you get a camera that will work with 35mm cine glass, the AF100's 4/3" sensor kills off that option. The F3 supports Cooke/i and Arri LDS, no other camera at anything like this pricepoint does that.
The F3 will be huge for rental houses. The one affordable body will work with a large range of choices in lenses at various pricepoints. Out of the box it records to an acceptable codec that's easily handled on average computers. You want something better, a considerable range of recording options will be available.
It is too early to tell what the PQ of the F3 will be, I doubt it'll be a dog though. The bigger issue through is the flexibility of the camera and how easy it will be to quickly get a ROI.
This camera should also do very well with film schools, it has everything any of the more expensive cameras has. Students get to learn about all of it with a camera that doesn't have to have a zillion bits hung off it and a camera that can be repaired in any Sony authorised repair centre. That's a big feature for a rental house as well if they're outside the USA.
I can't say for certain just yet but I'd expect the F3 to rent for much the same money as the AF100. The lack of flexibility with the AF100 means less rentals, more time to recover the capital investment and hence a higher daily rate to try to recoup investment.
Sony have done their homework and built a camera to service a market and priced it aggressively. Perhaps not as aggressively as some would like but they have not made the mistake Panasonic have of reducing functionality and price to the point where roles for the camera are limited. To the best of my knowledge a set of 4/3" matched prime lenses does not exist anywhere. A set of 35mm primes can be rented in most cities, they are a staple, they are tough, they are repairable, they simply work and there's quite a range of quality at matching prices.

A sort of digital Arri 35IIc, except you can shoot sound (without needing a blimp).

Don't forget that Jim Jannard said that Epic is now ready, that Scarlet S35 will ship before April - I know they aren't good with release dates, but considering that Epic is officially ready and Scarlet has a lot of the same tech, I think it's fair to assume that it will be shipping not too long from now - and that an S35 will cost approximately 8000 dollars (body only) and will have HDR with 18 stops of DR...

The Sony Cam may be a good cam on its own, but the competition has become fierce.
The EX1 was a great cam at a great price at the time, that had all reasons to sell as well as it did. But it's 2011 now. You have RED on the forefront, Canon, Panasonic, all contesting for the same audience. (RED with the Scarlet of course, for their higher end audience there is the Epic)
I'm even wondering how strong the 2/3" RED Scarlet will be in this market.

It seems that this camera is aimed at productions that don't wish to use the RAW workflow found on the RED. The Arri Alexa gives the option of recording ProRes or RAW (some even want to use HDCAM SR with it). If you don't want to use RAW, the Scarlet doesn't really enter the equation.

In the end, it really depends on which market Sony is aiming this camera.

The 2/3" Scarlet camera will have it's own market, ideal for docs and a lot of other productions. It's easy to get excited by big sensors, but the 2/3" market is very large. At the price being quoted the 2/3" Scarlet could replace quite a few 1/3" cameras, although the problem could be the RAW workflow and fast turnarounds.

Hasn't RED also announced a Proxy Module? That would record to Prores (or was it H.264)?

I've given up commenting on Red. But although some are calling the F3 a Red competitor I'm not sure that it is.

Broadcasters and firms that have an investment in HDCAM SR will like this camera, because as intended it plugs right into their workflow like the missing piece of a jigsaw. I don't think that competition from Scarlett even comes into the equation because this camera is not aimed at that market.

While I can't read their minds, I would say that Sony are probably thinking that this will do very well in it's intended market (to work with high end cameras and work seamlessly with existing HDCAM SR workflows and investments) but that if it does eat into Red, and maybe at a large stretch AF100 sales than that's simply an added bonus. But not one to fret over if it doesn't turn out that way.

Sony will be well aware that the F3 will probably find a market outside of it's primary intended use. Personally I'd much rather invest in an F3 and a NanoFlash than I would a PMW-500. It's ideal for the type of filming I do these days.

I believe they announced one being an option, I don't know what stage it's at or if you can do more than record proxy files.

Syman is dead on in his observations.
If anyone wants a 10K version of this, they would have to have an F3 mount only, single SDI out, no support for Cook or Arri data links, remove support for 3D linking....
And I bet it would fly off the shelves at that price.

BTW according to Sony Press release effective resolution of the sensor is 1920x1080, so the actual pixel count should be somewhere over 2K to achieve this. So no down sampling, line skipping or pixel binning.

November 17th, Sony is set to take the stage again with things pointing towards another camera being announced. We'll have to wait and see. You may be onto something.

F3 is an odd number to start with. Perhaps an F1?
But why the rush on the F3 and not just have one event?
Or did they not want one to overshadow the other since they're for different markets?
I guess we'll know on Wednesday.

Hi Craig,

How about this thought expression on the naming of the camera.... EX3 < F3 > F35

The rush?! We will never know for sure but things have been going viral on the lead up to the launch of Panny's AF100, as you know, and it appeared that Sony felt it had to jump in and stave off some of the momentum.

Sony's staggered launch on the F3 appears to have been done on an ad hoc basis. Two weeks ago Sony was saying "we'll tell you all on the 17th" and then they started to leak out stuff at several different times RIGHT after they announced the 17th as the launch date. Furthermore, the F3 was to be launched on the 17th, not this other purported camera that some are pointing to that is under the shroud in their promo shot of the F3 for this unveiling on the 17th.

I do have a funny feeling about whatever it is under that is under the cloth in the promo shot. It sure looks like a crummy old DSLR. I sure hope Sony isn't bringing out their own version of the Canon 5DmkII. Cameramen all over the world will be busting a gut if they do.

Sony could be learning some internet marketing given how much on line discussion there's been on the subject of a lower priced camera in advance of a possible announcement.

I bet Sony had a line of 35mm cameras. We will see on Wed.

Well Sony have the new 35mm NXCAM here at Interbee in prototype form, but that's a discussion for another thread. What has also been shown here is the 3 prime lenses. Very good looking lenses, that look much like a Cooke or Ziess prime. Big and chunky with large focus rings etc. But the big surprise is the weight. The Sony primes are remarkably light. There is a lot of plastic in their construction. I have mixed feelings on this. If your going to use an F3 hand held you want light lenses. BUT they just don't ooze quality like a Ziess. Have to say though that the picture from them look beautiful.

Also the F3 to PL adapter is about 25mm thick so plenty of room to make an F3 to DSLR adapter.

Alister: Do you have a picture link to the Sony Prime Lenses?

Thanks!

-terje

More here on Alister's blog (in case he's a bit busy to reply right now with looking at all the new goodies!)

XDCAM-USER.com Interbee 2010. Sony F3, Sony 35mm NXCAM and Hurricane Rig.

Wow. NXCAM line getting ready to compete with the AF100. Ain't competition great!!

Thank you for your help, Andy! :-)

-terje

No problem! See lots of F3 stuff (and a potential 24p versus 25p drawback with the new NXCAM - NOT switchable but region locked) all covered here by Philip and others who were at the Sony event in London today.

Launch of Sony F3 and NXCAM in London, includes native footage, test footage, video interviews! | Philip Bloom

Two other things of note on the NXCAM is there only appears to be one (3 pin XLR) phantom powered mic connections and the battery is the 7 volt variety, not the 12volt which is a concern to some who are trying to work in a 12 volt universe with both cameras and accessories. Probably not a deal breaker for most but worth knowing throwing into the decision making matrix.