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-   -   PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look. (https://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-xdcam-pmw-f3-cinealta/492408-pmw-f3-scene-files-first-look.html)

Alister Chapman February 28th, 2011 01:32 PM

PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
OK here we go. Here are some notes from testing my PMW-F3. First thing is… aliasing… a zone plate looks pretty bad with a fair amount of aliasing. I had heard rumours of this from others with pre-production units, but in the field I had not seen anything that would worry me. While the zone plate is not pretty, real world aliasing looks acceptable. I usually use brickwork and roof tiles to test for moire and these look clean on my F3. I think a fine patterned shirt could cause concern and I need to look into this further. I am surprised that there is not more about this on the web!

Excessive detail correction does increase the aliasing, however turning detail and aperture off does not reduce the aliasing significantly. Keep the detail level below -15 to avoid increasing the strength of the aliases. Above -15 the aliasing artefacts are more noticeable. Detail “Off” appears to be the same as Detail -25. Below -25 the image softens, below -45 very noticeably and there are some strange increases in aliasing below -50. For the moment I will be using detail at -17 or off.

The aperture setting can be used to add a little sharpness to the image to compensate for not using detail or a low detail setting. Aperture does not increase the appearance of the aliasing artefacts as strongly as the detail correction. I like the added crispness I can get with Aperture set to +30 combined with detail at -17. I would strongly recommend against using a raised aperture setting if you have detail higher than -15 as this will add sharpness to any detail corrected aliases and lead to twittering edges on horizontal and vertical lines.

Colours have that usual Sony look. Not bad and pretty natural looking, but for me a little on the green/yellow side. For a more natural 1:1 look I quite like these Matrix settings:
R-G +10, R-B +4, G-R 0, G-B +14, B-R +3, B-G -3, Std Matrix.

For a more Canon like look with Rec-709 gamma I came up with these:
R-G -2, R-B +9, G-R -11, G-B +2, B-R -16, B-G -10, Std Matrix, level +14, Blk Gamma -20

For use with Cinegamma 1 I use the above with Matrix Level +25, Blk Gamma -36. Highlights are a little washy, but as with any Cinegamma the best results are obtained by grading in post production.

Nigel Akam February 28th, 2011 04:34 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Thanks Alister. Looking forward to trying

Timur Civan February 28th, 2011 06:23 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Thanks alistair.

The manual doesn't really describe what any of these settings do..... So odd.

Thierry Humeau February 28th, 2011 10:51 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Thanks Alister, I'll take a look at these.


Aaron Newsome March 1st, 2011 08:06 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
My F3 will be here via Fedex this morning. I'll be sure to try your settings in my week of testing.

Chuck Fishbein March 1st, 2011 08:14 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Brilliant Alister. Thanks!

Alister Chapman March 7th, 2011 06:31 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
I've been working some more on picture profiles for the PMW-F3, mainly matrix settings. You can download the full set from here: XDCAM-USER.COM PMW F3 Picture Profile Smorgasbord. unzip and place the "Sony" folder in the root of an SxS card or SD card in an adapter. Place the card in the camera and go into the "others" menu and select "camera data" and "recall" to load the data into your camera. This will overwrite any PP's you already have.

Here's the latest settings I have:

ALL use Detail level -17, Frequency +20, Aperture +25 unless otherwise stated.

AC Warm1: Warm look, less blue/yellow

Cinegamma 1, Black Gamma -25, Black Level -2.

Matrix: Standard, level +8, R-G +14, R-B +12, G-R +4, G-B +8, B-R +4, B-G -18

AC Cool1: Stark cool look, maybe day for night.

Cinegamma 1, Black Gamma -25, Black Level -2.

Matrix: Standard, level +22, R-G -44, R-B -24, G-R -34, G-B =28, B-R -7, B-G -69

AC Elec1: Electronic, vivid look.

Gamma STD1, Black Gamma -20, black level -3, Detail Level -10, Frequency -40

Matrix Hi-Sat,

NAT1CG-1: Neutral Look, natural colors, less yellow/green.

Cinegamma 1, Black Level -2

Matrix FL-Light, Level +3, R-G +2, R-B +2, G-R +8, G-B +8, B-R -8, B-G -6

Note that for most of these I have used a cinegamma, that is because I would assume that post work will be done on the footage. If your not planning on doing any grading or post work you should consider using a standard gamma which will give a richer looking image or cinegamma 2 which is broadcast safe.

Nigel Akam March 7th, 2011 07:26 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Thanks Alister

Chuck Fishbein March 11th, 2011 11:01 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
I found the NAT1CG to be a bit noisy in low light. I see you have not mentioned crsipening in any of your settings. Is it irrelevant with the F3?

Alister Chapman March 12th, 2011 08:45 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Crispening is not irrelevant. I just feel that the camera is quiet enough not to have to mess around with the crispening. Of course the more variety of shots that I do with the camera then the more I'll learn about it's behaviour and that might change.

I'm surprised to hear you say you find that one more noisy than any of the others as the gamma isn't getting stretched and it's CG1 which I use in some of the other profiles.

Ola Christoffersson March 12th, 2011 11:14 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Thanks Alister! I'll try these as soon as I get the opertunity.

I have a few questions regarding gammas that are keeping me awake at night. This might be the right thread to get help.

This is my situation. I always grade my footage and want to squeeze as much information as possible in to it. With my EX1r I used to alternate between CG1 for bright high contrast situations and STD3 for indoors and controlled light situations.

The F3 has some new gammas and I don't quite understand which one i should use were I used to use STD3. Is the new STD5 the same? What does the fact that it is limited to REC709 really mean? Is it a color thing (709 has to do with colour space, does it not?) or has it got to do with video levels (gamma)?

Sorry if I am mixing things up here. I feel a bit confused...

Also - when I record using STD5 or CG1 I always get video levels above 100%. When grading I always push these down from 108% to 100% to make video levels safe. Is this the right way to do it or should I ever leave the whites above 100% untouched.

Please help me get back on track.

Alister Chapman March 13th, 2011 07:04 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Rec-709 is the closest to Std 3 on the EX cameras. Basically REC-709 is the standard gamma and colour space for broadcast HD video, so all HD video cameras should be capable of REC-709 or something close to it. REC-709 defines the colour space and gamma. Colour space is restricted to a particular range so that no matter what camera it is shot on the pictures should look correct on an HD TV or monitor, the same with the gamma curve.

If you are doing anything for broadcast then the levels should be brought down to 100%. Material that will be distributed on Blu-Ray or on the internet can exceed 100% but should never exceed 109% However some TV's or displays may clip whites back down to 100%, while internet delivered material often looks less than peak white when you do not go all the way up to 109.

Ola Christoffersson March 15th, 2011 03:50 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Thanks Alister!

That was kind of what I suspected. Now - that would mean that I am loosing a lot of lattitude when using REC-709 compared to a Cinegamma. I am very happy with CG1 for high contrast situations. Which Cinegamma would be best for controlled light situations instead of ST5 (REC-709) to maximize lattitude but with similar characteristics as STD5?

Leonard Levy March 15th, 2011 10:04 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Alister, what does the aperture do as opposed to the detail, and why do you have the frequency set up to +20?
Are these settings different than you used n an EX?

Chong Pak March 16th, 2011 01:16 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Long time lurker, first time poster.
Recently got my F3 and loving it so far, coming from a film back ground using PL lenses are wonderful!
I tried downloading the scene files Alister posted but I dont see a "Sony" folder.
Also, where am i suppose to put the Sony folder, below the BPAV folder?
Please help!
Thank you in advance.

David C. Williams March 16th, 2011 05:48 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
The Sony folder sits in the root of the SxS card

Alister Chapman March 16th, 2011 06:25 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
I've just checked and the "Sony" folder is there, it's what you download. You just place it in the root of the SxS card.

Aperture is a high frequency boost so it has the effect of sharpening very fine details in the image. It does not add a black/white edge like detail correction. As I have backed off the detail a little in my profiles to steer clear of aliasing and line twitter, I'm using aperture to add back a little sharpening. I think aperture correction tends to look more natural and less electronic than detail correction, yet helps retain a crisp looking image.

Push aperture too high and you can get ringing around edges and increase the appearance of noise.

Leonard Levy March 16th, 2011 06:31 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
If aperture is a high frequency boost though what does the frequency adjustment control?

Alister Chapman March 16th, 2011 06:35 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Frequency governs the width of the detail correction edges. High number = higher frequency = thinner edges.

Leonard Levy March 16th, 2011 06:37 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
So I take it both adjustments are going for a similar affect- to sharpen the higher frequencies and reduce the large more obvious detail affects. Thanks as always Alister.

Chong Pak March 16th, 2011 07:00 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
got it, thank you!

Ron Wilk April 14th, 2011 02:22 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Hi all,
I hate to sound like a dolt, but I downloaded Alister's scene files and placed the resultant folder labeled "Pro," at the root of an adapter installed SD card as suggested, but when I tried to "recall" the files to a scene file position I got a message that says, " NG, NO DATA." Was I supposed to place this folder into the card's existing "Sony" folder?

Now, I can simply manually enter the settings, but I'd like to know what I am doing wrong?
Thank you in advance.

Alister Chapman April 14th, 2011 03:32 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
There should be a folder on the root of the card called Sony then the Pro folder goes inside that. If there is no sony folder you should create on on a PC or Mac.

Ron Wilk April 14th, 2011 03:48 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Hello Alister,
Thank you for the followup.
I thought that might be the case, but it never hurts to ask.

Steve Strickle April 24th, 2011 05:46 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Anyone have any new Profiles they're happy with?? I've messed with some of these--some I like, so not so much.

Alister Chapman April 25th, 2011 07:36 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Just to clarify the differences between Detail settings and the Aperture setting.

Detail has a sub set of settings including: frequency, level, crispening, knee aperture, black and white limit. These sub settings all affect the amount and level of detail correction applied.

Aperture is a completely separate type of adjustment.

Detail works on contrast. The higher the contrast in an image, the sharper it appears. A bright sunny day will look sharper that a dull cloudy day because there is more contrast. detail works by increasing contrast by adding black or white edges to any parts of the image where the contrast changes rapidly, for example the edge of an object silhouetted against the sky. This increases contrast still further, making the image appear sharper. The crispening setting sets the contrast threshold at which detail gets added, level adjusts the amount.

Aperture is a simple high frequency boost. As fine details and textures are normally represented by high frequencies within the image, boosting high frequencies can help compensate for the natural fall off in lens and sensor performance at higher frequencies. This helps enhance textures and other subtle, fine details within the image look clearer.

Neither setting will increase the cameras resolution. Both make the image "appear" sharper. Detail correction IMHO is very un-natural looking and electronic, while careful use of aperture can help sharpen the image without necessarily looking un-natural.

Leonard Levy April 25th, 2011 11:40 AM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Does the aperture setting have any effect on the very high frequency moire that has been noted in fine mesh fabrics or on resolution charts?

A more real world question about this though would be - would the frequency setting have any affect on the unusual amount of moire I've seen from my F3 on a computer screen. The only way to cut that I've discovered so far is with an old Tiffen "Diffusion filter #2". This does a pretty good job but only on wide to normal lenses as the image goes to hell on long lenses.

Alister Chapman April 25th, 2011 12:13 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
No not really. The moire is caused at the sensor so adding sharpening afterwards makes little difference. There is a very marginal improvement in the visibility of the aliasing if you turn off or back right off the detail correction.

Chuck Fishbein May 2nd, 2011 03:07 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
Are the F3's profiles relevant for both HD and SD coming out of the camera? Meaning, do you need to set up separate profiles for SD and HD? And if not, can an SD waveform/vectorscope be used to set up an HD color profile?

Alister Chapman May 3rd, 2011 02:48 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
The gamma curves are the same for HD and SD, although Rec-709 is meant for HD production and not SD.

The big issue as always is the detail levels. If you just use the downconverter in the camera to give an SD output over the SDI, assuming the camera is set up for HD, the SD will look soft. SD needs quite heavy detail correction to look good (IMHO), so you can't optimise the camera for HD and get the best SD at the same time. You really need to chose one or the other, or do extra work in post to add detail correction to the SD material.

An SD waveform/vectorscope can be used to set up an HD color profile.

Ola Christoffersson May 3rd, 2011 02:53 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
This is a very interesting subject. Most of my work is still broadcast in SD but I produce everything in HD. I had big problems getting 1080i look good in SD PAL. Now I'm only working in 1080p and downconversion looks much better and sharper. However, I don't add any sharpening to accomodate SD.
I noticed in the F3 that there are separate settings för SD and HD-sharpness. Are you familiar with how these work, Alister?

By the way. I just signed up for your two lectures at LLB in Stockholm in a couple of weeks. See you there!

Alister Chapman May 3rd, 2011 02:57 PM

Re: PMW-F3 Scene Files. First look.
The SD settings come in to play when the camera is set to record SD internally and replace the HD settings.
See you in Stockholm. :-)

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