Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Hello everyone.

I will be renting an F3 + S-Log upgrade soon and I need to rent a set of lenses to go with it. The place I will be renting from has the aforementioned lens sets. The Cooke and Schneider come only as a set but they don't have the entire PL set of CP2's so they come individually. (if it matters, the prices for 4 days are $610-(Xenar), $735-(Cooke), $564-(CP2) and $266-(Zeiss-Nikon)

The Cooke includes: 25, 32, 50, 75, 100. (all T2.8)

The Schneider includes: 25, 35, 50, 75, 95. (T2.0 to 2.2)

The CP2 includes: 21, 35, 50, 85. (3 are T2.1 and a T2.9)

Possibly, a 4th and much cheaper option would be a set of cine converted Nikon Zeiss with Red Rock focus gears. The budget allows for the high end glass but I might be able to keep any money saved (appx $25k for production for each spot - don't know what is set aside for post yet).

Which would you use and why?

Any thoughts, suggestions or things to lookout for are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

I'd have a look at the images and see which best suits your project. The Schneider look closer to the Cookes, which tend to be warmer than the Zeiss.

The difference with the modified stills lenses will be the focus scale and you'll have to consider the importance of the 1st AC having a larger scale on the cine lenses, with less chance of blown takes. It really depends on if you're doing a lot of precise focus pulling, the time costs of any retakes and if you need to set up the focus marks by eye.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Hi Steve:

The prices you have listed for each lens set (except maybe the Nikon/zeiss) are pretty high.

I think if you look around a little you should be able to find a nice 6 lens set of Ultraprimes for 500 to 600 dollars per day. That would be my choice with that budget.

Neal

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Hi Neal,

The prices listed are for a total of 4 days so the entire Cooke Panchro set comes out to be $184 per day ($152/day Xenar; $141/day CP2).

We plan on receiving everything by UPS on a Monday afternoon and shoot both spots on Tuesday thru Thursday or even into Friday and then drop everything off at UPS Friday night.

PS 5 years ago, we would have been neighbors as I used to live in Brandon plus St Pete before that and then Bradenton after Brandon. I miss FL quite a lot.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Oh Boy! I really missed the mention of 4 days! Your prices look great now.

I haven't used the xenar lenses but at that rate it looks like a pretty nice option.

Neal

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

It looks like you are going thru LensRental.com

Zeiss Compact Primes CP.2 PL Mounts are a good option... lightweight, nice contrast, very sharp and color match...

Maybe not with the warm and creamy look of the Pancros... but if you are going with S-Log you'll have plenty space for color grade and match.

If your budget allows as you say, I will also consider a wide angle lens which is usually needed for TV commercials...

They have the Zeiss LWZ.2 15.5-45mm T2.6 which is very nice zoom and lightweight too.

Also add the 85mm T2.1 and/or the 100mm T2.1 Macro for pack shots...

T2.1, T2.6 or T2.8 on the F3 @800ISO is OK. With S-Log you will be @1600ISO.

If you go with the primes option, include the 28mm T2.1... fantastic lens.

Don't forget to add ND and ND Grads filters sets.

Add insurance too for the lens set.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

You are good. I do almost everything through lensrentals.com from photography to video equipment. I didn't mention their name because I can go a bit overboard talking about how great they have been, thus, causing my post to be removed.

And yes, I will be adding their insurance to the lenses and a few other things - that is a very good idea.

I looked at the LWZ2 but I don't think my Sachtler FSB 8 would be up to the task when adding in my Zacuto Newsman baseplate rig with v-mount battery, either a 7" Marshall SDI monitor or Zacuto Z-Finder and RedRock Mattebox and FollowFocus and also add the Aja KiPro Mini to the list.

Actually, I just checked and it weighs only 4.4 lbs. That is amazing. One option would be to get the LWZ.2 and the 85mm CP2.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

For an extra $112.50 you can add the Manfrotto 526 Kit and you will be covered with up to 35lbs payload.

I live in Ecuador, South America and have not deal so far with LensRentals.com but they have wonderful prices and the best references from a very good friend of us living in Nashville.

Best good luck in your shooting.

Hope you can post some pics afterwards.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

A couple of notes about the Xenar lenses. Haven't used them but I have been tracking comments about them...

Some of the Xenars telescope which becomes an issue with a mattebox, second and probably less important is the position of the iris and focus ring is reversed. Aside from that I have heard nothing but good reports about these lenses.

I like what the Zeiss lens coatings do to the skin tones and a couple of their wide angle lenses are very good at their price point. Henry brings up a lot of good things and suggestions, in my view.

You have a tricky decision to make Steve as some of the sets have wide lenses and other go in tighter but lack a true wide. What is more important going wide or going longer? I think that is where the crux of the decision is.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Hi Henry,

Thank you for the advice so far.

I have had several bad experiences with Manfrotto heads and tripods; so, I don't view their tripods as high quality. Before I added an EX3 and FSB 8 with CF legs to my kit which included an EX1 and FSB 6, I rented an EX1R and the best Manfrotto tripod lensrentals carried at the time. I sent back the first Manfrotto due to a pop in the head when panning. The 2nd tripod they sent to me did the exact same thing. I then went to my local Abel Cine to borrow one of their Manfrotto tripods and it had the exact same pop although it was a slightly more expensive model. The legs on all 3 sets were not stable (all had mid-level spreaders) as well. Since that experience, I refuse to use any Manfrotto tripod or head.

However, I have now had my 3rd Sachtler tripod break on me, and I thought these guys were supposed to be one of the best. The entry level eng tripod that comes with my FSB 6 had a leg pop out late last year, which is why I decided to get the Carbon Fiber legs with my FSB 8. Well, about 2 months ago, one of the CF legs becomes loose. With my EX3, Zacuto shoulder rig & v-mount battery and SolaENG 3 light on the tripod, I could apply a small amount of down force and the bad leg would start to slide up. So, I went to Abel Cine to have them get it fixed and they lent me their Sachtler tripod which is the same as the one with my FSB 6. About an hour ago, I was setting up the tripod. While loosening one of the legs and letting it slide out, it completely fell off. I just can't seem to catch a break.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

What can I say, Steve...

In the last 23 years in this business I've own Vinten, Miller, Manfrotto, Cartoni and now a Sachtler SB18 Head with CF legs... been the last one, the best.

Manfrotto and Sachtler are now Vitec Groups's and their tripod systems are assembled out of Italy or Germany... May that be the cause? Who knows... Even though, my experience with light Manfrottos (up to 13-16lbs) has been a very good one so far. That was why I suggested that 526 as the best option available from LR.

But if you can get a better one for this job don't think it twice. If you are in Chicago, AbelCine might have the Sachtler Video18II available for rental.

I totally agree with Andrew's comments about these Cine Xenars... but I will not consider them as an option and will not elaborate more on this subject... Ask you contact at AbelCine what they think about them. For some reason they do not carry these prime lenses anymore in their stock.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

So, what's wrong with the Cine-Xenars? I have a full set of them, plus 5 CP lenses, and I prefer the Xenars. They are great! Yes, I have to adjust how I use my FF and matte boxe, but it,s not big deal. They look great and are the easiest to use of all my lenses.

Also, if you want a great tripod, nothing compares to O'Connor. It's an investment that will pay you back for 10-15 years or more.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Hi Doug,

What filter size are the Xenars(found it, 102mm) and what mattebox do you use with them?

I can rent the Arri clip-on MB that is designed to fit on the CP2's without rod support. Or I can rent the RedRock MB which includes a swing-away and 3 filters plus rod support. I am considering the LWZ.2 plus the 85mm CP.2 and 100mm CP.2 (if they get it in stock in time).

On a side note, does anyone know whether the Nikon Zeiss lenses change focal length when adjusting focus? (I can't think of the term for this)

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Steve,
The Zeiss ZFs (nikon mount primes) are a very solid option for you too if you get de 28mm. Our set includes 21-28-35-50-85 and none of them expands or get bigger when focusing... We use them a lot with our 5D2 and Panasonic HPX370+Letus Ultimate. Wonderful glass without the mechanics of the CP.2's

Doug,
With all due respect to your comments...( by the way, I love your videos, specially Mastering the Sony PMW-F3... WONDERFUL Tutorial) I know you have, use and love these Xenars... but I have not read too many good reviews about them so far... There are some conflicting opinions at other forums about them.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Just read Schneider has brought a new set at NAB 2011... all-new mechanics.

The Cine-Xenar MKII... "New, Fresh and Different.."

https://www.schneideroptics.com/ecom....aspx?CID=1722

https://www.schneideroptics.com/pdfs...Cine-Xenar.pdf

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Its called Breathing where the focal length slightly changes with the focus.

Now I remember seeing a comparison of a prior generation Zeiss cine lens versus the Nikon Zeiss. The Nikon Zeiss did not breathe but the cine Zeiss did which was surprising. Breathing is one of my major dislikes while watching video. To me, it makes the production value look cheap.

How much do the Xenar's telescope? After watching the video below, I really like their look and bokeh.

I just found this video comparing the Xenar and CP.2.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

I have three matte boxes (O'Connor O-Box, Redrock, and Chrosziel) that I move from camera to camera depending on what I'm shooting. I can use any of them with the Xenars, but I generally prefer to use the Chrosziel because it does not attach to my rods. It clamps on the front of the lens so it moves with the lens when it telescopes during focusing.

How much do they telescope" They only telescope about 1" if you rack focus from one extreme to another -- something that does not happen very often in real world shooting scenarios -- so it is not a big deal even if I am using a matte box clamped to rods. In my opinion, it is worth the little bit of extra hassle because the Xenars look great and I find them easier to work with. The bokeh is the best I have seen on any of the lenses at this price point and they have a much shorter close-focus distance than lenses. Almost getting to macro levels.

I would ask anyone who wants to bash the Xenars to be more specific about their complaints and to put up some sample video. You can't just take pot shots at something without explaining yourself.

I own the Xenars and I have a set of CP lenses . . . I know which ones I prefer.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Hi Henry, thank you for the compliments on my earlier videos.
Can you post some links to the bad reviews of the Xenars? I have not seen any and do not believe they could come from credible sources. I don't think it is right to spread unfounded rumors without quote the source. If there are bad reviews about the lenses, then let's see them so we can learn exactly what the complaints are and who is making them. Both of those things are important.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

About the Schneider Cine-Xenars:

Just to be clear, I have never use them so I can't speak for them.
I haven't had the possibility to rent/try them because there's no chance so far in Latin America.
What I've said is based only on what you read at the forums in the internet...
Looks like they have important pros and cons... optically very nice with the mechanics on the opposite side.
These are not cheap lenses and they are also heavy.
There are posters that like them so much with love... and others that hates them so much with passion.
Schneider is a very well known name and respectable lens maker. I have owned and used many lens adapters and currently ALL my filters are made by Schneider. But as an owner/operator/rental facility which I am, I will prefer to put my money on either CP.2s or Pancros if possible... or to rent Ultras in the best scenario, if the budget allows. All of them for the rental market worldwide are future-proof.
Theses are just my personal views.

Here some of those links:

Schneider Cine-Xenar II

Schneider Xenar Lenses

Considering some Schneider Cine-Xenar lenses... anyone use them?

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Hi Henry,

I would be very interested in hearing your opinion of the Cine-Xenars if you had actually used them. Otherwise, you are just spreading second-hand rumors. Even if you said you had heard great things aboout the Xenars, I still wouldn't care to hear your second-hand opinion. I think most of us are more interested in hearing hands-on appraisals from people who have actually used the item they are speaking about it. It is curious that even most of the comments posted on the links you provide have been made by people who have never actually used the lenses. So now we have non-users quoting other non-users. I don't think that is fair to anyone.

Sure the Xenars are heavy. That is a fact. Yes they telescope less than 1", that is also a fact. Yes the focus and aperature rings are reversed, so what? Once you've used the lenes, you quickly get over those quirks and fall in love with the look. They are my favorite lenses to use on my F3 and FS100.

However, I'm sure other people would disagree. Nothing is right for everyone. And I would totally respect the opinion of someone else who disagrees -- as long as they have actually used the Xenars for themselves. That's all I'm trying to say. Don't knock 'em, if you ain't tried 'em. :-)

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

At the moment, I am leaning towards the Cine-Xenars due to lack of breathing, gorgeous bokeh and great image.

Does anyone know if there is a F3 to Sony Alpha adapter yet? I would love to try a couple Sony Zeiss lenses.

EDIT: The Xenars are out of the running due to the focus ring moving forward with the entire lens, which I discovered via Doug's F3 demo video.

Anyone use the Zeiss LWZ.2? I am considering it in addition to the 85mm CP.2.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

The old Zeiss Super Speed Distagons had this arrangement, it's no big deal.

Quite a few lenses telescope while focusing, you can get doughnuts/ rings that allow you to do so with a matte box.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

I keep going back and forth between the Xenars and their amazing image/bokeh and the ease of the LWZ2 zoom. Lensrentals tested the RedRock FF and it stays on the Xenar all the way to infinity but I don't know about the RR Mattebox working with the Xenars.

Another question for you all: which would you rather use, the Zacuto Z-finder or a 7" Marshall 70XP HDMI monitor?

And does the HDMI work when S-Log is enabled? If so, can a LUT be applied to it?

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

lets just say, in the world of film, you get what you pay for.

I was gung ho about the xenars ever since they were announced.

I tried em, hated em. Then i even gave em another chance. Still hated them.

They produce a decent picture, but the mechanics are a nightmare. And yes, maybe you dont pull focus from close to far that often, but we had to on the shoot, and the FF gear walked off the follow focus, and im stuck there looking like an a**hole while the gear blew a shot.

That said, they have the BEST BOKEH EVER, if you like super clinical clean bokeh.


Bought a set of Panchros, never looked back.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Yes, their Bokeh is the best I have ever seen and very similar to my favorite stills lens - the Sony Alpha STF 135mm T4.5 / F2.8 (Smooth Trans Focus) with 10 aperture blades - absolutely tack sharp wide open and an amazing bokeh, which is the whole purpose of the lens.

Speaking about bokeh, I looked at the Illuminas but hate their bokeh which looks 'busy' and reminds me of cheap SLR lenses.

On a side note, has anyone used the Zeiss LWZ.2? It has only 9 iris blades versus 14 on the CP.2 lenses (and 18 on some Xenars). I could rent the Panchro set but the LWZ.2 would work better due to time constraints. At the very least, I want a set of lenses that are sharp at T2.8 so I can light to 2.8.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

The Optimos are great "lightweight" zooms. I've used the Zeiss LW and it performed well although I didn't get to test it exhaustively. I'm not preoccupied with bokeh myself so I can't speak to that characteristic--guess you could say I'm more interested in what the in-focus elements of a shot look like than the out-of-focus ones.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

I should have clarified that I am interested to hear about all of its (LWZ.2) characteristics rather than just bokeh. Is it sharp wide open or does it need to be stopped down to T4 (at 2.8, both the Panchros & Xenars are sharp); does it breathe like the CP.2s; falloff; corner sharpness & vignetting wide open? At only 4.4 lbs, something had to be sacrificed.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

Timur,

We here at Schneider have had a few reports about the gears "walking" off the focus ring due to the external focus design of the Cine Xenar lenses. I am curious if you tried the extra wide 19mm focus gear available for most of FF units (Chrosziel, Arri, etc)?

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

I had a long play with the Cine Xenar II's at IBC and they looked very nice. If you have the right follow focus gear (i.e. a big fat one) you should be able to use a follow focus all the way from end stop to end stop. It's amazing how quickly we forget about external focus lenses v internal focus. I used external focus lenses with moving focus barrels for the first 15 years of my career, it was normal and whats more the end of the lens rotated too The Cine Xenars don't rotate. The Cine Xenars are telecentric so have a very flat projected image which is better suited to a solid state sensor than film. This does give an extremely even image with almost no fall off in focus at the edges or vignetting. This may be what some people don't like as a traditional film lens will have more fall of at the edges giving an almost imperceptible vignette that tends to draw the eye into the centre of the image, that's just a thought/opinion of mine. Of course if you have a very flat/even image adding a slight vignette is easy in post. The amount of baffling in the Cine Xenar's is amazing and the 12 to 18 blade iris system is what gives them their amazing bokeh. I am hoping to get a few for an in depth review soon.

Just a note regarding tripods. The newer Sachtlers are made in Costa Rica and I am hearing many tales of a significant drop in build quality. I believe that O'Connor, vinten, manfrotto are now all made in countries where the labour is cheap. O'connors are great heads but they are prone to leaking fluid.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

I have tried the wider gear, it does solve the issue, but i invested in Cookes instead.

Best of luck with the new design, cant wait to try them out!

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

If anyone is planning to buy a Panchro set, it seems the price is about to increase after 30th Sept. An interesting new option are the uncoated front elements for an old style look, these can be swapped as required for the usual coated elements by a lens technician.

Re: Schneider Cine Xenar, CP2 or Cooke Panchro Set for F3?
 

SO excited to try the new elements..... :)