Is there a top steadicam?
 

Hi all! Im looking to buy a top quality steadicam for film and tv use. I need something that can support up to around 50 pounds. Funding for the rig is no obstacle and I now how high some can be. Please steadicam users give me your top 3 steadicam choices for the 50 pound capacity. If you also could, please give me your reasoning for your picks. Thanks to all in advance! Also pictures of rigs would be cool.

50 pounds? That'll be a pretty serious rig. Have you taken a workshop? I can't imagine buying a rig of that level without having some formal training first, at the very least to know if Steadicam operating is something worth pursuing or not, and also because it may be easy to hurt yourself with such a heavy rig if you don't know what you're doing. And even if both of those aren't issues, operating a Steadicam rig is definitely a challenging skill.

Just as a general idea though, Tiffen, XCS, and PRO are the top contenders in the full-sized rig arena. (Though there are a few others) A full rig ready to fly from any of those three will run you at least $60,000, and probably with the accessories you'll need (Preston FIZ, Canatrans/Modulus, hardmounts, etc...), you could be well over $120,000.

Hopefully Charles Papert can give you some advice. He's this board's resident Steadicam expert, and he owns a PRO rig.

Thanks Tom
 

Thanks for the reply Tom. I really appreciate youtaking the time to help me out. Yes I have taken several steadicam workshops as well as specified training with several units. When I said 50 pounds I was giving the max of what my setup ( now or near future ) would probably ever weigh. Honestly my setup is probably closer to 30 pounds. I own the JVC GY-HD200 with p+s technik mini35c, zeiss primes, chrosziel follow focus and matte box, firestore, marshall vrop7hd 7" monitor. Maybe this will clear up my question, I should have posted this earlier. Also in the near future I will have the Red one so I hae to take that into account as well. Thanks ALL!

Check out [url]http://www.mk-v-ar.com
There is a great piece of video of a guy walking down the stairs, and the
A-R capability. Excellent gear!
If you're in the US, you're going to take a beating on the exchange rate tho'
Good luck,
T.

Matt,

Tom is right...Charles Papert is "the Man". Maybe he will sell you his rig. I think it's just over $100,000 so if funding is no problem then...there you are.

Seriously though, there might be someone of this forum who has a rig that would fit your needs just right or knows of one so you're in the right place.

Tery
Indicam

Thanks
 

Thank you Tracey and Terry for your replies. Forgive me if I sound as though money is no object when in fact it is. I am only 20 and am looking to get the best equip possible within reason of budget. I have about $20,000 to spend and need something that will support the jvc with mini35c rig I have now and possibly the red in a couple of months. I have a one take film all planeed out, cast, rehearsed, crew ready and rehearsed so all I need is the steadicam. I know there is always the option of renting but I will use the steadicam for probably every film I make so I figure I might as well purchase one if possible. I have batteries, a remote follow focus unit, and the marshall 7 " hd monitor for the steadicam so I do not need it completely "loaded". Keep in mind I am only 20 years old so any advice or opinions will greatly improve my knowlege. Im always open for suggestions! Thank you all!

Well,
That might sound like a chunk of change, but unfortunately it's not going to get you a lot.
Your best bet is to try and find a used rig, maybe a Mark III, that somebody's using as a standby rig. There was one on ebay a while back with a lot of options and accessories.
You say JVC do you mean the 110/210 size?
Even with the lens adapter and all your other goodies, I'd be surprised at your 50lb estimation.
Alternately, the Glidecam V25 might be more in your line.

Charles wrote a good report about it when it came out, if I remember rightly. He said it had some quirks but a whole lot better than the V-20.

Depending on your requirements, you might be able to live without a remote focus, but the V-25 with options, and some shopping around for motors rings, transmitters might keep you under $20,000.
There's tons of material out there, to guide you.
Use "the Google", as Mr. Bush calls it.

****When I said 50 pounds I was giving the max of what my setup ( now or near future ) would probably ever weigh. Honestly my setup is probably closer to 30 pounds*****

****I have about $20,000 to spend****

Take a look at the Steadicam Archer or Clipper rigs. The archer is closer to your price range, but only supports 23lbs so maybe a used clipper would be an option to consider.

-John

Terry my rig is the 200 series. Has any of you heard of a Basson steadicam? Just curious if anyone has used them or heard of them.

It takes quite a few films to make it worthwhile buying over renting kit. You'd probably need to have work on other people's productions to make it worthwhile.

Matt,

Here is a thread from the Steadicam forum about the Basson. I have no personal knowledge of the company.
http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums....php?t167.html

Regarding your question, I am going to take a different approach.

What is your goal in 5 years. I think that is the first consideration.

1. Professional steadicam operator:
Purchase an industry standard rig (for the type of camera you plan to fly the most, maybe Red? and it's permutations?) and do the kind of projects on your own and for others that will give the practice and exposure/contacts you need for work if you turn out to truly be a professional level steadicam operator.

2. Producer/Director, either or both:
Spend equipment money on equipment that is standard for your work, camera, tripod, selection of mics and other standard sound equipment, etc. However, do not spend money on equipment that cannot be operated at a professional level for your kind of projects except by a professional operator with years of experience. A one-take movie might be a good example. Spend some of your money on hiring a professional for a day or two and work on your producing and directing skills. The producers and directors secret weapon is to select the right people and get them to work together according to a unified vision. Doing eveything yourself and operating all the equipment is a style onto itself and has its own rewards (e.g. Cassavetes), but it is also very limiting and limited.

3. Hobbyist:
Buy everything you want and can afford, whether you end up using it very well or even at all. Make sure your real career takes off so you can keep pouring money into your hobby, and you can have your friends over on the weekend to impress and boss around as your crew.

4. Something else:
Take a path that gives you practice and teaches you the skills for that.

Regarding your current one-take project. How long is it? Is there a good script? Are you using professional actors? Is sound covered for a professional result? (Or is it mos?) Are other technical considerations being handled in a professional way?

Chances are very good that you will be totally unable to film this in an adequate way yourself, especially with new equipment. If this is a top-notch little project, it would be worth it to hire a rising professional who wants to try something like this. It sounds like you have the money a make fair deal for a one or two day shoot -- which I guess this would be since it's a matter of how many takes you are going to do. A day or two prep is probably required, but I think you will be amazed at quickly a professional learns the "choreography," and points out all the problems, as well.

You say everything is rehearsed and ready to go. If you haven't done so yet, I would handhold a one-chip or a small 3-chip and see how the tape looks. Despite the shakiness, is the framing and the transitions good all the way through. Are there sound problems? Etc.

Actors can make a huge difference in the success of something like this. Most professional actors are much better at hitting marks, keeping a rhythmic flow, staying in character in every way, adjusting to problems that come up and so forth, than you might imagine.

If this is a project for you to practice using the Steadicam, that's one thing. If this is a project with greater ambitions, consider using a professional operator.

Anyway, there are some other things for you to consider.

thanks Jack
 

Thanks for your reply Jack. In regards to my occupation, I am a Director/Cinematographer. At the age of 20 I have won awards for both at festivals across the country as well as in Japan ( not just for student films). My main mode right now is to aquire the equipment necessary to finish off my small indie production company. I have a cinekentic car mount, jonyjib 21' crane with remote head, cartonic c-40s with miller legs for my camera rig, jl fisher dolly with 50 feet of track, all kinds of live computer recording equip for HD, wireless follow focus, wireless video, of course my camera setup, several arri, lowell, litepanels, and kino flo lighting kits for just about every location I will shoot in for indie films, portable green screens and blue screens, sennheiser mkh-416 & me-60 mic with 18 foot ktek boom poles, shure fp33 mixer, edirol r-4 pro, 4 sennheiser ew112p g2 wireless lavs and receivers, etc.. All I am trying to do is get a decent steadicam that will suffice for my smaller projects now. When I get a budget for my next project I can always buy a more professional tiffen rig etc. As for the one take film, it has been rehearsed, positions marked off, lighting rigged, crew in positions, PROFESSIONAL PAID ACTORS rehearsed and on que perfectly. As for sound they are rigged with lavs to help as a refererence for ADR. I am simply posting this as a question as to which rig is best suited for my needs. Please lets keep this to the original question and not question whether I am capable of doing a one take film. Professionals are hired on the crew therfore all I need is to know what steadicam to purchase for my use. Thank You

Sorry Matt
 

I was misled by this comment.

A couple of other comments that fooled me were "money is no object," "best steadicam," "50 pounts," "$20,000."

The JVC camera doesn't weigh 20 pounds. Best steadycam for a 50 pound load is way over $20,000.

To answer your last post, in my opinion the best rig suited for your needs for the current project is owned and operated by someone else. But that's just my opinion.

You didn't answer the critical question of the length of the current project. But with your high level of skill, all the workshops under your belt, and your awards, I am confident it is a feature. Probably 120 minutes. (The Russians could only pull off 90 minutes in the hermitage, but then that operator wasn't so well-rounded. And I'm afraid they might have had inferior equipment. If I remember right, the hard drive array was hand-built, not even out of a professional factory.)

Nevertheless, I still hold the opinion that directing and steadicam operation on even a one-take 20 minute short is a two-person job. But I'm sure Jerry Lewis and Barbra Streisand would have a different view. (I think Rodriguez might actually agree with me, but I don't know.)

It is great you are using paid actors. I hope they are SAG. SAGIndie now has some great options:
http://sagindie.com/
(Or maybe you are working under a full SAG contract. That would be great!)

But now I'm off topic again. Get an industry standard rig of the weight class you need. Specifics to you shooting style, strengths and limitations of your technique, limits of your natural-born steadicam appropriate abilities, and the vagaries of the cameras you expect to use will dictate which are your best options.

A little more info
 

Thanks for the reply again Jack. I did not mean to snap back at your post but to inform you about my situation a little more. For this one take film it is going to be from title to credit roll around 70 minutes. Not trying to break any records, just trying to add a cool one taker to the resume. We plan on shooting over 2 days with 2 more days if needed. On this shoot I am just direction, I should have made that more clear. As for my DP he is very accomplished. His name is vince Toto and he has been a DP and special fx dp/ supervisior for close to a hundred films. He is bringing a camera operator with him that is supposed to be great with a steadicam but does not own his own as he is more of a traditional operator. We are using SAG and SAGIndie actors, its pretty much a mix. We have pyrotechnics, weapons, car chases, etc. I t will be extremely tough but I feel things will go well. I just wondered what the best rig for my setup would be mainly for this film and also for other films that are in pre pro. I will definatley get a better rig later on but for now I just need something in the 25-30lb weight capacity that is under $20,000.00. This is not a one man production for sure. (P.S. I am a big fan of Mr. Robert Rodriguez.) Thanks All!

my age
 

I hate bringing up my age as I think age has nothing to do with ability, but when I said im only 20 I was meaning I have not had the opportunity to use that many rigs. The main reason for this post is my lack of experience with various steadicams which is why I was posting here with so many great users who have incredible insight, opinons, facts, and research. Thanks

(p.s.) I have workshopped with the lighter weight rigs such as the glidecams and one of the tiffen's but I wanted tomove up to the mid level range so I dont have much experience.

All is excellent!

With the JVC up to 30 pounds it seems you are kind of between systems. You need a recommendation by an pro operator (like Papert) who knows the systems, the limitations and what be overall best for your specific uses and your general needs.

All the operators I've known have owned their own systems, but I understand your operator this time doesn't. I suppose you have already discussed this him what options might be good for him. Some of the faults of some systems that can be overcome in normal situations become a roadblock with a 70 minute take.

The reason I originally was interested in this thread, but forgot to ask, was to find out what lens you are using on the HD200. Are you using the wide angle lens? the stock lens? or one of the newer lenses? I would guess you are using the wide angle lens since you are flying the camera in such a long take, but I don't know and was curious.

Regardless of what you will be doing in the future, do you know the actual weight you will be flying for the one-take project?

Back to the original question, for a short yet intensely demanding shoot, using a professional operator, it might be best to separate your general needs from this project and rent the exact type of system this time that will give you the best results. Your general needs, this project and a $20,000 budget for purchase do not seem entirely compatible.

Jack, we will not be using a stock or additional lens. We are using the p+s technik mini35c with either a 24mm or 35mm zeiss high speed lens. The actual weight of the rig that will be flying for the one take will probably be closer to 20-25 pounds but I wanted to estimate a little higher therfore I said atleast 30. Thanks!

Very good. As someone else said above, it's very possible that for the weight you are flying and the quality of rig you need for what you are doing on this project, there isn't a reasonable purchase option for $20,000 or less.

Hi Matt,

If you are looking for the best advice in the interest of your film(s), I would suggest relieving yourself of worrying about the technical aspects of the Steadicam and just hire an owner/operator. If your shoot is indeed planned for about two days, you could hire the absolute BEST OPERATOR IN THE WORLD for far less than half that. They'd show up with their gear and operate the bajeezus out of that film. You'd still have $12-$14k left over to put elsewhere into the production of your film, and you wouldn't have a $20,000 piece of equipment sitting around taking up space after filming was complete.

I know of people that like to just buy as much of their own gear as possible thinking it'll save time/money when it comes time to shoot. While this is true in some instances, I think in the long run it is far cheaper to simply hire crew and rent only the gear you need. Chances are good if I am looking to hire the best crew, they will individually own exactly the gear I need, and can bring it along as a rental. Now, I not only have the equipment and am paying for it for only as long as I need it, but it is being operated by the person that personally knows it the best. This can only be a good thing.

Owning your own gear and bringing someone else in to use it can be hit or miss. With regards to Steadicam, I know of many operators, myself included, that simply won't use gear other than their own. Even though I know I could step into any rig and operate it, it's not the operating that would concern me. I know my equipment inside and out. I know exactly what I have and where it is. Because of this, when it comes time to solve a certain problem, I can usually do it very quickly. If I were handed an unfamiliar kit, that same problem would take much longer to solve as I would have to spend time getting to know what my tools are. I imagine this can be applied to other positions amongst the crew as well.

With regards to your film, and all respect to the operator you have in mind, I would venture to say you would have better results, and save a ton of money by just hiring a professional operator to shoot your film. The value in that would be more than just monetary.

If your interest in the equipment extends beyond this film and you would really like to consider owning a rig, take a couple thousand out of that 20, and take one of the SOA (Steadicam Operator's Association) workshops. It will be the best investment in your gear and career you could make.

Thanks Afton, I have taken several steadicam operator workshops therefore that is why I am looking topurchase. In regard to your response the use of the steadicam will continure for atleast 4 more projects that I have lined up. As stated earlier I do dp alot of my shoots and will run the steadicam on the next few shoots. Therfore that is why I am asking advice on what the best rig for my needs now would be. I just want a list of everyones top 3 under $20,000.00 that can support 20-25 pounds. Thats all. I appreciate the concern but this is more for my use than for just this one shoot. I want to avoid renting as I will be using this for future projects and feel it would be better to own and use everyday for practice as well as paid shoots or films.
Thanks

****I just want a list of everyones top 3 under $20,000.00 that can support 20-25 pounds****

Matt-

As people have pointed out, a quality rig at that price doesn’t exist. The closest is the Tiffen Archer (supports up to 23lbs) and is 23k for just the base model. Your best bet is to save up and look around for a used Clipper. Have you joined the steadicam forum yet? They have a good used gear section. CP can probably give you the best advice on this subject.

-John

is anyone familiar with the v-25?

In case you haven't seen it, here is Charles King's review of the V25:
http://homebuiltstabilizers.com/TheGlidecamV-25.pdf

It's 20 pages long with lots of pictures and detailed descriptions.

Since you are familiar with various rigs from your workshops, this review should be helpful in understanding the V25.

I'd just say that Jimmy Muro, who operated for James Cameron did Steadicam on his own feature film and said it wasn't a good idea to operate Steadicam and direct.

I did Steadicam on a couple of my shorts (one Super 16 and the other 35mm ) and doing it for any length of time just drains energy that could be put to better use as a director and you're not concentrating on the actor's performances as much has you should.

OK it's kinda fun, but for complex Steadicam shots the director should be working hard on the on screen action and tuning that rather than tuning his own complex dance with the Steadicam.

http://actionproducts.ch/en/actioncam/products.html

fine swiss engineering and design...under $20K, hard to beat.

If it's a good system, this looks like its exactly what Matt is after: Up to a 40-pound load for well under $20,000.

Matt's requirements were:
1. up to 50 lb. capacity, minimum 30 lb.
2. able to fly the fully loaded HD200
3. able to fly a Red in the future
4. under $20,000

It seems this system meets all the requirements, and is geared toward a Red camera to boot. It seems to have good recommendations. Here is an article with pictures:
http://redmodz.com/stabilizers

Mind now, I have no personal knowledge of any of this.

This is a pic from a shoot just last week. It even surprised me how heavy such a small camera can quickly get once you add on all the accessories. Granted, a zoom lens is not ideal, but obviously a possibility, and one I wasn't aware of prior to showing up. You're looking at the end-of-day configuration after much tinkering with the brackets and mounts to get the weight distributed in a way that made it balance reasonably well with my sled. Beginning of the day was pushing the limits of my rig (Steadicam Master Elite). End of day was tolerable, but still silly heavy.

That 9lb body has a VERY slow metabolism. (puts on weight quickly)

Thank you Meryem, That is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks again Jack and Afton. I appreciate everyones opinions and feedback. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience with the actionproducts the company or the rig? Thanks

Their customer service has been very good. They communicate well with their customers.

The quality of the rig is excellent, and it is relatively easy to set up, balance, and get good footage in a very short span of time.

Matt,

I emailed ActionCam direct and got back some links that should be useful in evaluating the product.

If you email me I will reply and attach some info from ActionCam they sent me that is new and not up on the website yet.

Also,

Go down to the long post by Charles Pappert in this thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...ining+going+on

Search ActionCam on this forum for a lot of into:
http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/

The following two links have info on film productions where the ActionCam is being used:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=13376
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthr...ight=actioncam

(You may have to join the red forum to see the threads.)

It seems ActionCam has been in business for 10 years but started marketing in the U.S. just this year. Here is what they wrote me:
"Please note that we are on the market since 10 years now. Since 5 years our ActionCam is basically the model as we have it now. However we just started to sell to the US since the end of last year and officially introduced our new model on the last NAB show. So there aren't that much reviews of our new models at the moment.
But we have had excellent feedback on the ActionCam at NAB and otherwise."

It seems this is a legitimate product and possibly unbeatable in its price range. It seems to sit nicely in both price and quality between the low range Glidecam rigs and the upper range Tiffen, XCS and PRO rigs.

Matt,

If you haven't already, be sure to check out the steadicam forum
http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums/
They do talk about other brands there, and you'll get advice from many working operators. Ask about the ActionCam and see what they say.

There's also a post from a guy in L.A. who wants to share a used pro Steadicam rig, so this also could be within your price range.
http://www.steadicamforum.com/forums...=0&#entry36017

Hope this helps.

Hi everyone, I've been out of town at a family event for the past week.

Matt:

I have a great many thoughts on things that have been said in this thread and few of them have to do with suggesting what kind of rig would be best for your camera package. You seem to have gotten frustrated with those who have not simply answered this question, but that should actually tell you something; you have two entirely separate concerns going here. The ideal rig for your shoot may not necessarily be the ideal rig for your future projects.

As you indicated, you are working with professional crew on this very complicated shoot. It seems to me that an operator who is capable of pulling off such an elaborate and lengthy sequence would have his own ideas on what kind of rig would be right for the job and if I were in his shoes, having the director suggest otherwise based on recommendations he culled from the internet would, in all honesty, generate a big red flag about the whole job.

However, if the ultimate success of the film is not that high a priority (you indicated that you were "just trying to add a cool one taker to the resume", which to me is an indication that it is more of an exercise than a serious endeavor), feel free to ignore all this, just have fun making the project and sure, buy an Actioncam, it's a good rig.

Thank You all!
 

Thank you all again for the help. Charles thanks for the insight. I agree whole heartedly with your opinions and greatly appreciate your input. You are correct in that this is more of an exercise. Again I am a film student majoring in Directing and Cinematography. I am in the mode of putting together larger scale projects than the typical student films to build up a reel and resume.

Again thank you all for your input. I am thankful I can be a part of the dvinfo community. Thanks again all!

Matt