Best recommended Steadicam for XH A1 with letus35 Elite DOF adapter?
 

Forgive me when I say I'm in the dark a bit.

I need a Steadicam system best appropriate for my setup for making a film.

What is best recommended for the following criteria?

1. Suitable for load of Canon XH A1 + Letus35mm DOF adapter + 35mm lens + rods
2. I may need to run with the system
3. The best budget without compromising on build quality

I did have my eye on the Merlin and sought advice from customer support at Steadicam. They told me the Merlin wasn't suitable for DOF adapters and I'd need a Pilot or Flyer. But which?

I did look on eBay and found the Flycam Pro 6000 from India, but after doing some research on the net, heard the build quality is apparently not good and can fall apart... I'm told you get what you pay for.

Anyone with some experience make a recommendation?

Chris

With the add ons plus a remote focus you are in Flyer territory.
To get "film" look results you will need to attend a Flyer workshop and practice for months.
Is this a one off? Perhaps might be cheaper to hire a pro for the job.

Hi Christopher,

Using a lens adapter with a steadicam is a complicated proposition. First off, it takes 2 people, one to operate the steadicam, and another to pull focus. Second, it's not cheap. You'll need to spend $7000 for a Steadicam Flyer, and another $4000 for a good wireless follow focus system, or around $11,000 total.

Alternatively, you could forget about having a shallow DOF on the steadicam shots, leave the lens adapter off, and get by with a Steadicam Pilot for around $4K.

Either way will probably take you months of practice to get to the point where you want to show your work. So as Nick says, you may want to just hire a steadicam operator.

My production has a limited budget plus it is being shot in Spain. I haven't got the budget to fly out a Steadicam op to Spain for a couple of weeks.

My concern is the quality and grade consistency of the footage. I would be prepared to shoot the steadicam scenes without a shallow DOF, but surely the footage will look jarred if I shoot some scenes with a DOF adapter + 35mm lens and others in naked HDV?

Thanks for any advice folks..

Chris

You need to decide which compromise best fits your production & budget.

Hire one of Spain's qualified & equipped Steadicam operators.

Buy all the gear yourself, ship it to Spain, and attempt to pull off professional looking shots with a setup you have no experience on.

Plan alternative shots instead of using a Steadicam.

Good Luck!

Appreciate the advice David... One of the purposes of this project is to learn skills that I've skipped over in the past and left instead to other (qualified) crew. I am prepared to learn and do the hard graft.

To answer another poster above, this isn't really a 'one off' ... The aim is to shake off some of the restrictions that have held me back creatively in past shoots because I'm restricted to sticks or hand held. I would like to broaden my horizons and learn a new craft. I realise to pull off pro steadicam shots takes months of hard graft, I just need to make sure I have the most appropriate tools for the job without breaking the bank!

If my Canon XH A1 at 4.5 lbs + letus35 elite + follow focus + rods could be supported by a Merlin, I'd buy a Merlin but Steadicam tell me it won't do it properly... I'm in Flyer or Pilot territory. My question is which.

What will your total camera weight be??? You must also consider additional sound and on camera lighting.... I think doing the math will get you closer to your answer...

Happy New Year!!

Mike

in general, it's best to avoid on camera lighting for a narrative project, and for best results record the sound double system to eliminate cables to the rig (and/or unmonitored wireless mikes).

Christopher, I'm glad to hear that you have limited your decisions to the Pilot or Flyer, they are best in class rigs. Your main decision I think will be predicated on whether or not you choose to use the 35mm adaptor, with the options and prices that Dave correctly listed. There are opportunities to buy both the rig and remote system used of course, but that often takes time to wait for the best deal, don't know what your time frame is.

I have shot material that is mixed between 35mm adaptor on and off, and it has intercut fine. Ideally one is not cutting back and forth between the two that much, but a decent hand with color correction should make it seamless enough. Consider that many people prefer to use wider lenses when doing Steadicam shots, and often the shallower depth of field is subtle enough that it would not be missed if the same shot was done without the adaptor.

Both Dave and Nick are guys who have fully embraced the passion of operating Steadicam and while it may seem that they are harping on the amount of time and practice that is required to gain the skill, it's only because they have themselves put in the time and effort and have seen what it takes. We see many posts from people who are not really applying themselves but want to know what the "quick fix" is for their operating issues. Depending on how you define "pro Steadicam shots", it may actually takes YEARS, not months to achieve that level of expertise (for myself, about 3 years to get "decent" at the skill but literally 10 to 15 years to get truly "pro"). Again, it all depends on one's expectations of the results.

And yes, I will echo the sentiment that the 2-day workshops offered by Tiffen are highly recommended to start building a solid skill set.

I understand that you were just looking for an answer to "which rig do I buy" (and hopefully that is pretty well answered) but we have seen many people enter into Steadicam without a full comprehension of just what level of commitment is involved, particularly if they have high standards or expectations of the results. I myself just heard about a project where a novice operator plunged enthusiastically into a film with a similar camera setup to the one you described, and ultimately the scheduled Steadicam shots were replaced with handheld and dolly because the Steadicam work was not up to par.

Now there's an understatement. Unless you're a real pro like Charles, anything but a fairly wide lens starts looking shaky pretty fast. Besides, many shots inside tight spaces just wont work any other way. And if you really need to get closer with a steadicam, you can usually just walk closer.

Or as Mike McGowan says here:
SteadicamForum.com - A Community of Motion Picture Camera Stabilization Specialists
"I'm going on my 11th year as a steadicam operator and I have found that I suck less and less each year."

I've only been at it a year, and I'm already starting to understand this. At the beginning, getting better seems to happen fast. As you progress, getting better seems to take longer.

By the way Charles, I really appreciate a truly professional op like yourself taking the time to answer all of our questions on the forums. It's helped me a lot. Happy New Year!

Charles,

Please read my post on the XL2 forum; I could really use some help w/ DB; this cord quote may be my issue... (application = wedding coverage) Thanks

Happy New Year!!

Mike

[QUOTE=Charles Papert;987268]in general, it's best to avoid on camera lighting for a narrative project, and for best results record the sound double system to eliminate cables to the rig (and/or unmonitored wireless mikes).

Mike,

done.

Hi Christopher,

It looks like you're serious about buying a rig and putting in the time to get good results, so here are your options:

1) XH-A1, lens adapter, rails, Steadicam Flyer LE ($7000), wireless follow focus system ($4000), and another person besides you that is experienced at pulling focus ($??).

2) XH-A1, no lens adapter, Steadicam Pilot ($4000)

3) XH-A1, no lens adapter, Steadicam Merlin (no arm or vest) ($1000)

4) XH-A1, no lens adapter, Steadicam Merlin with arm and vest ($3000)

5) XH-A1, lens adapter, rails, cheaper brand steadicam rig ($??), wireless follow focus system ($4000), and another person that is experienced at pulling focus ($??).

Given that you are serious and want to learn the craft, I would recommend getting the Steadicam Pilot (option #2) to start off.

Later you'll probably want another bigger rig, but the Flyer (option #1) probably won't cut it. For example, the Flyer doesn't work well with the RED One, since the rails and other RED accessories usually put you over the Flyer limit. And with the Scarlet and Epic coming out, I'll bet that they will come out with new steadicam rigs that target those specifically. So I wouldn’t bet on the Flyer being very future-proof.

Also, one assumption on option #1 is that the focus puller person must be able to eyeball distances very accurately. Pulling focus for steadicam shots is more difficult than pulling focus for a dolly or sticks, since a steadicam operator rarely walks the exact same path twice. If your focus puller person doesn't have a lot of experience, then you'll also need wireless video monitoring system, preferably high-definition wireless system, which will cost another $5000. As I said in my earlier post, running a lens adapter on a steadicam is a complicated proposition. You could rent wireless follow focus and wireless video systems, but then you could also rent a RED one, meaning that by that time, you'll want t bigger rig than the Flyer.

You could just start out with a Merlin for $1000 (option #3), but your arm will get tired pretty fast, and the results won't be as good. From the way you describe yourself, I think you'll want something better than this.

I wouldn’t recommend the Merlin, Arm, & Vest combo (option #4), since the Pilot is only a little more, and the monitor on the bottom makes a huge difference. Also note that for some strange reason, Steadicam doesn't offer an upgrade path from the Merlin to the Pilot. In other words, even though the they both use the same arm and vest, Steadicam doesn't seem to sell the Pilot sled separately.

As for option #5, I used a Glidecam V-20 ($5000) on a student film once, and it worked fairly well, but it took a long time to set up and re-adjust for each shot. For example, to simply adjust the sled tilt, you have to loosen 8 knurled brass thumb-screws, adjust the stage position with an allen wrench, and then re-tighten the 8 brass thumbscrews. On the Steadicam rigs, you just turn 1 knob to do the same thing. For changing how high you want the arm to ride, the V-20 requires you to take off the sled, and then use a socket wrench to tighten a bolt, then put the sled back on. Again, on the Steadicam brand rigs, you just turn 1 knob to do the same thing. No need to take the sled off, just raise the sled a few inches while you're adjusting.

I've also seen a FlyCam 6000 in use, and this seemed to have a problem with gimbal accuracy, so I wouldn't recommend that.

I’ve heard good things about the ActionCam rigs, but these start at $15,000, and can lift film cameras up to 50 pounds.

The point is that the Steadicam brand rigs actually do work better. They're quicker to setup and adjust to a specific scene, and they're more precise in use. It's not like a designer where you just pay for the label.

I see the Steadicam Pilot as something that will tend to be a valuable tool for a long time to come. Cameras in the 4-8 pound range are flourishing, and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight. So I would guess the Pilot will have a fairly good resale value. Here's an instructional video for the Pilot:
YouTube - Steadicam Pilot - How to demonstration

There's also a video of Garret Brown (inventor of the steadicam) using the Pilot here:
YouTube - Steadicam Pilot with Garrett Brown
and the Flyer here:
YouTube - First Look at the Steadicam Flyer LE

I used the Flyer at the 2-day workshop, and it didn't seem noticeably different than the Pilot with additional weights. In fact, the Pilot is much easier to dynamic balance, since the whole bottom crossbar can move forward or aft.

Speaking of the 2-day workshop, you might want to take that before you even buy a rig. They provide the rigs for the workshop. They won't let you use your own rig for insurance reasons. So you can try the Flyer and Pilot for yourself, talk to the instructor, and then figure out what you want to buy. In any case, take the 2-day workshop, either before or after you buy the rig.
The Steadicam Workshop Solution authorized by Tiffen instructed by Peter Abraham

Hope this helps.

As someone who just wrapped on a film with a 35mm adapter, on which I was the Steadi op, I'll echo Charles's sentiment of running without a camera for Steadicam. On our film, we had the problem of having a quite heavy Redrock M2 Flip rig, with big Nikkors on the end (quite the beast - about 2 feet long from front to back as kitted out), something that I'm not sure my rig could fly - let alone dealing with the focus. So, the director, DP, and I decided to roll with a second camera, using only the stock lens, on the Steadicam.

Now, this made a good number of very nice solutions. For Steadicam shots, where the shots traditionally moved through more locations, lighting was much less critical, since we weren't having to battle two irises, plus the light loss of the adaptor itself. Also, without the worries of focusing, we were free to compose shots that required movement towards and away from our actor, allowing for a lot more freedom, rather than hobbling along, trying to keep at a consistent distance from the actor (since we didn't have, and weren't in a position to rent a remote Follow Focus). Also, when finally viewed on a nice HDTV, we were pleasantly surprised that with some work from our DP in matching the cameras, they looked surprisingly close. (I in fact preferred the stock's look for a lot of the shots - but hey, not my call to make!) Also, because we had two cameras, and I kept the Steadicam built throughout the shoot, we were able to shoot as if we were using 2 units. We could light once, shoot a tracking Steadicam shot, and then add more light, and move right in with the 35mm kit for other shots in the same location, without having to re-balance or re-equip every time.

Overall, it worked out quite well, and we pulled off some incredible shots. (And some not so incredible ones, but that's more my inexperience as an op than the fault of our camera choices!)

Now, in terms of which rig to choose, I think that the Flyer is a beautiful choice, if you can take the cost. I've got a rig with a similar weight capacity to the Pilot (an overcomplicated hybrid of way too many different things - but with a Merlin Arm and Vest), and while it's worked out beautifully for every prosumer camera I've thrown on it, it would really be nice to have that extra capacity to know that if something bigger did come along - like the lovely ENG camera I've been using a lot up at school - I could fly it. The only time I've had to think about turning something down because of weight capacity was the above discussed job, and as I said, we were able to find a solution (going stock), but I have had worries about moving up, especially as I become a better operator. It's probably not something you'll quickly run into, but with rigs costing what they do, the future is always something to think about.

Good luck on your project, and hopefully whatever choice you pick will work out for you and your project.

To answer your question I think the flyer is your best bet. The pilot will be really pushing the limits with all that gear. Patrick Moreau just shot a wedding with all 35mm and had the Brevis mounted to his flyer with exceptional results. I would pm him and ask him what it was like, as he didn't have a focus puller and had to really think his shots through. So in essence the flyer will accomplish your needs and the pilot will be pushing the weight limit.

If you're using a lens adapter on steadicam shots, I would say the Pilot won't work period. Too much weight. The only way a Pilot will work is if you leave the lens adapter off for the steadicam shots.

Charles, didn't you have a link to a site that has side-by-side comparison frames with and without the lens adapter? I looked for that link and cant find it now.

Hi Tom! Haven't seen you since the 2-day workshop. How's it going!

Don't want to drive the thread too far off topic, but I've been doing great. Having a blast up at school, and over this winter break, I've been the Steadi op on a short film, might work on a couple of other small projects, and I was a PA/Utility on a huge HD Live broadcast. They even let me run the jib while the jib op got his lunch break in (running an 18 foot jib live knowing that half of the city is watching a parade that's a huge Philly tradition - now that's pressure!)

Next time I'm in New York, I'll be sure to give you an email.

Oh, and to add some constructive info to the thread, check out this thread about the film I shot. The 3rd screen-grab down was one of my Steadicam shots, and the rest of the shots are all Redrock 35mm. I think it shows pretty well that the two really can intercut with some work by the DP and editor.

Duet - DVXuser.com

Not sure exactly which one that was--there are some comparison stills and footage from the article here I did with the JVC HD100 and Mini35 a few years back. It wasn't really intended to prove that the footage can be intercut per se. However the film that I had in mind where we did just that is not online. FYI in that instance the reason I pulled the adaptor was not because of weight, but I needed the extra exposure when the sun started to die.

Hi Charles,

I found the link I was thinking of.
The Letus Extreme By Philip Bloom On ExposureRoom

As you pointed out before, there's nothing new in terms of footage here, and it would be better if it were calibrated with charts, but I liked the side-by-side splitscreen comparisons with and without the lens adapter. The side-by-side comparisons start at 3:15 into the video.

Christopher,
I wanted to chime in with a bit of my experience dealing with these same issues. I shoot with a Canon XLH1 and an XHA1, own a Letus extreme, an Indiecam pilot, a dolly and a Kessler jib. here are some conclusions and questions.
1-Like charles says, you can get excellent results cuuting adapter and non- adapter footage. When using my Letus, I try to keep it on the H1, and then use the A1 stock for steadycam, dolly, jib and hand help shots. I'm a novice with the indiecam rig, and like everyone says, it takes years of practice to get good ("suck less"), and it's challenging enough without adding the adapter issues. last night I did a shoot with the h1 and letus on dolly, but needed a focus puller for dollying into the subject.
2- The adapter stuff takes much more set up time, and more lighting. I try to use it selectively, although I love the look. I tried using the h1 w/ adapter on some jib shots, and found that i really needed to go with a wide prime in order to get enogh dof . Much easier with the A1 stock. I haven't even attempted to fly the camera w/ adapter. I'm not sure if the rig could handle the A1 w. adapter. Hopefully I'll be getting together with Terry Thompson (manufacturer of the Indiecam, great guy) in the near future.
3-We're currently editing a trailer and a music video, both done with a combination of stock camera and adapter. On the first day of the music video, we were in a large balck box studio all day, and I had the luxury of having all my gear set up, H1 w/ adapter and A1 without. Just for comparison, I duplicated a number of shots with with both set ups. Having used decent lighting and the same presets on both Canons, it looks like the stuff will cut together fine.
4- I saw the recent all Brevis wedding shoot that Patrick and team did, and have wanted to talk to him about how they did it. Great stuff.
So to sum it up, what you're attempting to do talkes LOTS of paractice and experimentation. We used to do weddings and similar events, and I rarely practiced techniques. Now that i'm working with all this other gear,and shooting more challenging material, I spend quite a bit of time in the back yard, practicing and experimenting.( my neighbors must think I'm crazy...)
Good luck.
Bruce s. yarock
Yarock Video and Photo

Christopher and Bruce,

Bruce,

Since you have the 214 arm you should be able to put a 14 lb payload on the sled. How heavy is you A1 with the other attachments?

The only problem I can foresee is getting the camera and lens system to balance at the center of gravity between them. I think I have seen variable mounting points on the rails of some of these systems. The lens system makes the camera very front heavy kind of like a Canon XL series camera.

We just bought an A1 to replace our Sony Z1u which was stolen at the San Francisco Airport. Haven't used it much yet be we do like many things about the A1 that we didn't have on the Z1. We did love the Z1s monitor though which was excellent - even in full sunlight. We also loved it's clean low light abilities.

By the way, it's Indicam and not Indiecam (I know you already know that). Someone had already registered the name Indiecam so we the Steadicam thing and just misspelled our name Indicam. It's kind of caught on. At least it's better than the name that Martin Stevens (president of Glidecam) suggested we use when we found out we couldn't use the name "Steadiglide" because it had "glide" in the name.

Christopher,

We commend you in seeking to learn the skill of steadicam operations. Even though it takes time to learn it, the time is well spent. Who knows, you may be a natural. Some people we have sold rigs to caught on to the basic principles right away. They say our training DVD helped them a lot as well.

I do concur with the others about not using the 35mm adaptor on whatever rig you end up buying - at least not right away. It's hard enough to just operate the thing without worrying about a shallow DOF.

Smooth shooting!

Tery
Indicam
We

I wanted to thank everyone for their valuable contribution to helping me make some very difficult decisions. I've re-read the entire thread a few times and everyone's experience in the field has helped me to realise a few hard truths.

I don't plan on buying a Steadicam right away. As suggested, I will take the 2-day workshop mentioned first and experience the different rigs firsthand.

Secondly, it's hugely helpful (and a relief) to know I can intercut the shots without it looking odd. I was convinced slicing 35mm DoF Adapter footage with the A1's stock lens wouldn't work. If that were the case, I'd have no choice but to be forced to use that rig on the Steadicam.

Although I won't know for sure until taking the workshop, I think the Pilot is the likely choice for me. Whilst I'd love the luxury of 'future proofing' myself with a Flyer, my budget is pushing it as it is with a Pilot. (Although a little voice keeps nagging; 'As I'm not rigging the A1 with a DoF adapter now, wouldn't a Merlin do the job?')

Thanks again for the superb advice, this forum is excellent.

Chris

Ranking somewhere between total beginner and rank amateur, I'd like to ask if editors would grade (degrade?) the naked cam stabilizer footage with added grain and diffusion, and contrast adjustments to try to match the adapter footage?

Perhaps the answer is obvious.

Since the lens adapter cuts down the light by a certain amount, you might need to match that in post if you didn't correct for it on set. Contrast and color correction would probably be about the same with and without the lens adapter, but it all depends on the specific shot.

As for adding grain or diffusion, I would think not. You could theoretically select the area of the naked cam frame that you want to keep in focus, and then blur the rest of the frame to try and match the lens adapter, but that would probably be more trouble than it's worth to make it work.

Another idea is to try to add some visual depth though lighting on the naked cam shots. Tom's example link above shows this pretty well.

Thank you, Dave.

In intercutting, I want to learn how to address the overall softness of the adapter image when compared to naked (as evident in even the small lo-res grab that Philip's exposureroom post displays), and not the areas out of focus. Is it best to just leave that difference, or would you try to soften the naked image?