Rates For Event Videography
 

Hi, everyone. I'm new to this site as a forum member, but I really need to figure this out. I've done a lot of crew work (gripping, etc.) and shot a lot in the past. I feel like I've been selling myself short though with a lot of my gigs.

So, I have two questions.

a. A promoter in the city has approached me about shooting their new years event at a downtown hotel. I will be bringing a canon XH-A1 and my canon video light with shotgun microphone to the event.

I will then be taking the footage and editing it into a 1:30 to 2:00 piece that I will then have to convert twice and throw up on the internet with their approval.

What is a reasonable rate to ask for this service?

I expect they'll want me there early (8 or 9) and i'll pretty much be stuck downtown until 2 or 3 am.

b. What is a fair rate to charge a struggling indie band for a music video? Let's assume the video is shot at a venue with lights (so, not renting or bringing extra lights outside of maybe some soft boxes for closeups). These bands are generally on local labels and so they are on their own to finance the video. This would be shot on the Canon as well

William

From Day Rate Survey

Camera Operator $200 - $350 per 10 hour day
DOP $350 - 750 per 10 hour day
Editor $150 - $750 per day

Equipment rental 3% of retail value per day, 3 day week.

Assuming you are just starting out, low end of scale, that would be $250 per day plus equipment rental.

Jim

camera op versus dop
 

thanks jim!

I'm guessing camera op means I would only be supplying a camera and no lighting or sound? Also, i've noticed that a lot of companies want a camera operator to come with sound and lights and then they try to lo-ball you because they don't know the industry. Then, they counter with...well, that's what joe did when he shot for us. How do you normally work around that? or is it best just to find other clients?

Hi William,
I've done a lot of this type of work and when i talk to the client I ask them what i would be doing and suppling. In other words, am I just running a camera or do I need to supply the gear and if so what type of gear. For example, when I do seminars in many cases all I am is labor to run the camera or work in video world. However there are other seminars I do where I have to supply the camera, tapes, lighting, audio, etc. Prices are different depending on what I'm doing. The same holds true for run and gun events as you described the one you'll be doing. Since in about 99% of the cases I'm suppling gear, which generally is a camera, audio, on camera light and tapes, I quote my rate. Sometimes it's a half day rate and sometimes it's a full day rate. Tape stock, parking (downtown can be really expensive as you know) sometimes a per diem or mileage might apply.
A lot depends on exactly where and when the event is.
All rates are based on a 10 hour day for a full day, 5 hours for 1/2 day and overtime does apply. For example, I did an event not long ago where I was on the job for 13 hours. Dayrate plus 3 hours OT.
If the event runs more thana day, I will package it all up and do some sort of deal.
Editing is a different animal. I have an hourly rate with the 1st hour being the most. I will generally package the editing also. For example, I shoot 3 hours of tape.
I know I've got 3 hours to load tapes, and X number of hours to edit, render and author. PAckage it up and give the client a package price.
Anyway, I have have an hourly rate to labor, a rate to get me and my gear and a rate to edit.
BTW, don't be afraid of Joe he's probably an amateur that isn't that good and doesn't care about the money ;-) Charge the job for waht it's worth.

Don

thanks!
 

Don,

I appreciate that. I've done a lot of professional editing and shooting work at different production houses in town, but I've done very little on this side of the client. Usually, I've gotten booked by a company that owns the equipment, and I'm shooting or I'm a shader, or a grip. So, it's frustrating when your day rate doing stuff like that is somehow bigger than what a lot of independently contracting clients want to pay for a finished product.

It's amazing how many people (with money, mind you) want a video for 100 dollars. To make 100 dollars, I could have just kept my job at Starbucks in college and worked a 10 hour shift.

Also, is there ever a reason for me to cut a "starving" indie band a deal on a video, or should I be firm with them and tell them to come back when they have money (even if they are my friends)? Just curious, because I know a lot of bands "breaking through" into the mainstream usually have friends do the work. Of course, I know that doing everything on a friends basis leads to trouble, but I'm wondering if anyone else on here ever makes or has criteria for making exceptions.

Thank you for all of the advice. This is the part of the industry I am still trying to figure out!

The main reason for cutting a deal would be if you could use the material to promote new (paid) work. I'ts hard to sell something if you don't have a good sample in your porfolio.

- Art

that makes sense. I did just shoot my first HD (really, HDV) music video on the Canon and it looks really good. I'm going to do one or two more for cheap just so I have some different styles to work with on my reel.

Event-wise, I'm pretty much covered, having done a range of events. It probably wouldn't hurt to shoot a few projects just to have something more "artistic" out there.

Do as much free work as you like! My ratesheet paying clients feed a whole bunch of work that doesn't do much besides pay for lunch and gas. It doesn't make me any less "professional" to also have a hobby of helping out on some music projects.

OTOH, I feel very free to say "no" to reduced rates, even when otherwise justified. I can't let my hobby work get in the way of paying clients. Or get in the way with other things, like time with family, sleep, recreation, etc. But when I can and want to I'll work for free or reduced rates.

Seth, you are a fool to work for free or reduced rates. you not only help kill
this industry, but no client of yours is going to respect you since you don't have
enough respect for your work to charge a decent wage for it. You invest money, time
away from your family, etc to have a business, don't leave the house for no money if someone calls YOU. Now, if you have an idea of your own to work on that's different.

This is a tough space to operate in.

The poeple are artistic and the jobs have a potential to be creative and fun, but they do noy have much money.

You have to ask yourself how much you want to do in this space because cheap low paying gigs often spawn more cheap low paying gigs.

I would say stick to your convictions and charge a decent rate because doing work for exposure gets old, quickly!

Lost respect from clients? Maybe, in the unusual circumstance that a client is aware of it and is too narrow-minded to appreciate that people sometimes do things for fun rather than money. How are Seth's examples any different from working on your own idea? I understand the concern about free or reduced rate work undermining the market for commercial work. That can be a tough issue, but I come down on the side of doing stuff that makes your life full and feeds your soul.

i dont disagree on doing things for your soul that YOU want to do. i am only saying
don't do free or reduced work for clients. If someone calls you for a job, they pay or
go somewhere else.

right
 

...but, for example, I am friends with a lot of music acts in Chicago who are getting bigger, but they have yet to really break in and their label contracts really don't alot for money to pay for a full-scale music video. These people are generally getting by working as bartenders or in retail and don't have a lot of extra cash.

I think that a lot of music video directors had to start out like this. I think the biggest thing is that if you do it for free or cheap, that you believe in the project. A lot of people approach me about projects I refuse to work on, because they have no clue about how much their pet project idea is going to cost. Add to that a lack of belief in the project, and you're just spinning your wheels. Craigslist is chock full of these.

I think it depends on what you are doing, and who the client is. Plus, if the band wants it to look like an MTV video, they've got to at least pay for the rental of HMIs and whatever else we might need. I generally make them buy tapes and any other goods that may have to be purchased. It's always good to have a friend who works at a rental house as well. If someone I don't know approaches me, though, it's industry rates all the way. Although, even in the case of band videos, I just ask them what their budget is and that usually puts some cash in my pocket.

I don't know that I agree with you. Yes, it can start the consuming public believing that we'll shoot and produce stuff for free and/or that our prices are super elastic. On the other hand, as William said, there are reasons to go "off the card" if it's deemed appropriate.

I think it's up to all of us to be very careful on this particularly slippery slope. If I shoot for a reduced rate or for free on one project, I make very sure that the client knows that this is a one off. I explain the specific reasons I'm doing it and that it's a one-time deal.

In this situation, I'd want the client to have some skin in the game too, if possible. That could take any number of forms.

Ultimately, to keep this from spiraling out of control, we all have to be very good judges of character to separate the clients that are really trying to do something good, different or interesting from the pikies that want to get something for nothing. We also have to be ready to walk away from the next job if the dreaded client wants you to cut your rates again.

No simple answers here. We just need to be smart about our rates to protect our businesses and this business in general.

For me, that sentence fragment makes a lot of difference. FRIENDS are excellent people to "bend the rules and rate card" for, if you are inclined to do so. Just beware of brand new friends when people find out what you do for a living or hobby...

i agree.
 

believe me, having been an underground and club DJ for a while on top of being in bands, I've been through that whole mess already. Everyone is your friend when you have something to offer for barely anything.

I'd recommend to see what other people in your area are charging. See if there are other video production companies or even freelancers that have websites with some pricing information. It doesn't hurt to call and ask either, especially since I find nearly everyone in this industry to be shrouded in secrecy when it comes to rates. If it was in my area, I'd probably ball-park figure it to be roughly $100 per hour of work. However, southcentral Alaska and downtown Chicago are drastically different markets. You might be able to charge a little more because you're in a big city, or you might have to charge less because you have a TON of competition to deal with in that big city!

Someone else had mentioned to ask what your responsibilities are. That's good advice, because it can affect your rates. Whenever I meet with a client, I ask as many questions as possible so I can get a clear picture of what they want and what I have to do. Also, I ask if they have a budget planned for this, and if there's a certain amount they want to set a limit at. That's something that I feel should be discussed early on in the meeting to give you and the client some boundaries. That way, you're not sitting there talking about the sun, moon, and stars when the client can only afford a lite-brite. I do things this way now because I've burned myself by it in the past.

Even though they might not have a lot of money, I think you should still ask them to create a budget of some kind. Sit down with them and explain that you can provide x,y, and z for XXX dollars, but you can cut out z and most of y and only charge X dollars. If you want to go as far as writing up a fancier contract, you could talk about making monthly payments instead of one giant sum. Some clients I've worked with tend to find it easier to pay say, $250 per month for 6 months instead of coming up with $1500 in one lump sum. Then the trick is making sure they pay up every month! Another option would be to set up a pay-as-you-go system. Break down a quote and tell them it will cost $x just to shoot the video. You can shoot the video for them, they pay you, and then when they have the next installment, you can start editing. We've done work for several clients in this way, and while it does take considerably longer, they're usually still happy that work is being done.

In the end though, its totally up to you if you want to do the work for severely reduced rates- or for free. Just be mindful that doing too many freebies or reduced rate projects might hamper your ambitions in the future. Word of mouth can and does travel FAST. Best of luck to you though, and keep us posted!

thanks a lot
 

I will let you know what I end up doing. The economy is not helping, but hopefully people will recognize that I am trying to deliver a decent product.

My only advice comes from 25 years of making a living at it.
The price you charge first, is the price you will always be paid. That is unless the client
asks for a discount the second time they try to hire you.

J.

Jacques is so right on this.

After spending many years working for facilities eventually being both a senior editor and video engineer, I started my own business.

I didn't quite have the experience as a shooter so I started with low rates thinking I'd bring in the clients and increase my rates as time went on.

BIG MISTAKE!

The clients liked my work for sure. Word of mouth was working. All at my low rates. The clients recommended to me wanted the same rates they heard from their associates. What I eventually did is got new clients at a higher rate. I pushed out my first round of clients or they left because they didn't want to pay more. Additionally I started booting clients because the lower rate work actually took away time I wanted to use for marketing for new clients.

My current advice is that you MUST have a rate that can pay all your business bills and personal survival based on about 20-25 paid hours a week. That'll give you time to do all the unpaid work such as marketing, maintenance, training, etc.

As you develop more repeat clients and word of mouth brings in more clients at your rate, you can cut back some on the marketing but don't ever let that dwindle because you need to keep pulling in enough to cover some client turnover.

You can certainly raise rates as your skills improve (some clients will notice and pay for it and some wont but that's not a bad thing if you've planed well). Clients will pay more as you get better equipment or offer new or improved services (and some wont but again the more dollars from the others should cover that). You'll inevitably have to raise rates as some of your life expenses go up too.

___________
Never forget that you should actually be able to make increasingly more money beyond your expenses (called increasing PROFIT) so your quality of life gets better.

Never forget that your business model should NOT but you in a situation where you have to work more than 20-25 PAID hours (they'll be plenty of unpaid work you'll need to do as a manager).

Start with rate that covers ALL your life expenses! It can take a long time to heal your business if you don't.

It's a real struggle to keep a business going but tying a boat anchor around your neck at the start is the surest way to struggle to stay a float in a sync or swim world.

so...
 

I am guessing that is accounting for the 1/3 of each check I lose to the government as well? Still, how do you know what to charge? What if I am asking way to much at some point? What projects should I charge more on?

How much do you need to make a month to cover bills and life expenses?
How many hours do you think it will take to do the project?
Add any additional costs (plus a markup) such as hiring people, rentals, tapes, transportation expenses.

x$ times 25 hours a week = or better than your monthly expenses is what you need to survive. If the job will take you 50 hours it must be 1/2 month expenses or more. Based on that you need to work 100 hours a month. If the job takes 10 then it's 1/10 of your monthly expense or more.

Don't charge flat rates (EVERN IMHO). If the client has a budget then work within that but that means a finite number of hours including revisions.

You charge base on how long the project will likely take. Be clear to your client how many hours or days you're offering. Sometimes one can increase the rate due to complexity because you're using more advanced skills or gear.

If you're having a problem trying to estimate either due to lack of experience, the client isn't specific enough, possible variables, give an hourly or daily (based on hours) rate. This way if the client starts asking for more, you charge them more.

EVERYTHING must be accounted for. If you can't pay your rent or buy food there's no point. You charge based on what YOU need to survive. If the client can't pay it then you're better off spending the time pursuing other clients that working on a job that looses money.

If you need $40/hr at 25 hours a week to live, then working for $30/hr will leave you in debt, hungry, homeless for example.

Payment depending on job: Partial payment up front. Deposit if a booked date in advance means you now can no longer do work on that date. Final payment always BEFORE delivery. Otherwise get paid at then end of each day. Do NOT invoice a client unless and until they develop a good payment history and even then clients can suddenly go bad.

NOBODY gets camera masters until the shoot is paid in full. NOBODY gets an edit master until editing is paid in full.

having been around NYC in the 90's doing low budget music videos, everyone did the same thing. tried to shoot something for $10k that looked like $50k because then some rec co exec would notice and send some work you way. well back then, shooting on 16mm, $10k was not much for film, processiing, transfer, offline editing on tape, inline editing.

thing was, the rec co's knew there was this army of up and comers and wannabe's. they took total advantage of the situation and used it to get cheap videos done. rarely did anyone ever go anywhere from this. 99% just got screwed. welcome to life and not much has changed.

back to your original post. its new years eve ? charge double. its a holiday, and my personal favorite night out. who wants to work then ? editing at 1:30 am ? thats blood money time !

also those rates on the website were really on the low side. as a camera op, $350/8 is about as low as I'll go, typically getting $450-$500 just to operate, no gear. perhaps my skill level lets me get that. even so, everytime you go out for too cheap, all you do is convince your client your value is lower then what it is. laywer's, doctors, plumber's, electricians, ect don't offer the types of discounts like production people seem will to do. get paid what your worth, get extra for holiday pay, or don't do it. yes I know, easy words when things are busy, but not when then are slow :(

of course, but...
 

How to know what the rates are supposed to be? What if i'm charging way more than other independent shooters with the same camera? I mean, obviously they are going to be more expensive in chicago than say...western michigan, because my cost of living is higher. Isn't there such a thing as "paying your dues" though? I'm 26, and I present myself in a professional and competent manner. I feel weird charging 500/day when I am this green in the industry (granted, i've been shooting on pro gear since I was 15- SVHS and Betacam) without a camera. I could see with camera, but right now my with-camera rate is around 350 for 8 hours. Is it different for each client, or the same rates for everyone? Where's the scale to know? Is there a resource in Chicago for this (perhaps the film office)?

One thing I have noticed is that companies that do business dealings on a very professional level (medical, pharmaceutical, etc.) tend to not flinch when you quote what your think you are worth.

thank you for the input, because I'm trying to really figure this all out.

You'll know you're rates are too high when you start losing business because you're charging more than the client feels you're worth. Until that point, you're worth every dollar they're willing to give you.

and the problem is client's feel you are worth less because too many people are willing to work too cheaply. so the problem feeds in on itself.

cheap gear doesn't help, despiite what you think. in the days of a $50k-$80K betaSP camera, your price was driven in part due to that camera and its cost. now a $5k camera can look every bit as good, but you should NOT cut your rate just because the gear got smaller / cheaper / lighter. it should mean you actually make some more money because now you aren't pulling $200-$500 from your day rate to pay for the camera.

$350/day with gear is way too low, even with a DVX100. if you have real lights & audio gear, ect, its even more too low

William,
first off in the greater Chicagoland area and in most other areas that I know off, a day rate is based on 10 hours not 8. When I do AV work, TV work or any other kind of work regardless of whether I'm suppplying gear or not it's based on 10 hours.
As for a rate, I agree your rate is too low for an operator and gear. What I've found is in our area the rate per hour generally starts at about $30 and goes up from there (non-union) Adding in gear will generally double the rate. Of course it depends on the gear, but for instance, take the starting labor rate of $30 per hour. Add 1 camera (SD type) on board light, tripod and 1 wired or wireless mic either HH or lav and double the rate. So now the rate is $600 for a 10 hour day. OK now the client wants a light kit added. Well you add for that, perhaps 2 or 3 hundred depending on the size and complexity of the kit. The client needs a 2nd or 3rd or 4th mic. Gotta add for that and a mixer. Maybe a sound person to run it. Need a 2nd camera? Got to add for the gear and the operator.
If the day isn't goning to run 10 hours, then you need a 1/2 day rate which IMO should be slightly higher than 1/2 of the full day rate. Hourly, take the day rate and divide it by 10 then raise the hourly by 5 or 10 per hour. You want to hire me for 1 hour (BTW my minimum is 2 hours then it goes to 1/2 day-otherwise you are in a postion of getting a bunch of 1 and 2 hour jobs and that doesn't pay the bills) This way the clients is more prone to hiring you for the 1/2 or full day and doing in 1 day instead of 4 or 5 1 or 2 hour stints spread over a bunch of days which could cost you a bigger job or 2.
The first thing you need to do is to establish your hourly rate, then the 1/2 day and full day rates then the add on gear. That's not to say you can't give someone a deal if they need to hire you for 3 or 4 days in a row. A package deal so to speak.
Age has nothing to do with rate (up to a point-obviously an 18 year old kid just getting started isn't going to command what someone older and with the experience is going to get.
Write it all out, see if it makes sense and if it's a livable wage then put your rate sheet together.
People that use our services know the rates, believe me. They will ljust as likely pass on someone whose rates are too low as someone whose rates are way too high.

Don

thank you
 

Don,

Excellent. That all seems to make sense, and I really appreciate your input.

-Bill

This an important point for me.

I believe you should charge what You think your experience level warrants.

Only you know this.

Put yourself in a consumer's shoes. Would you want to pay a professional rate for a camera owner?

What I call a "shingle hanger". One who hangs out a shingle and decides that is what they do from that point on.

I am all for charging decent rates, but I am also all against charging high rates just because somebody stated on the internet that video people should charge x amount, irregardless of experience or talent.

You mention chops. I played music professionally for 20+ years. When I was in college the amount of time "jamming" for free was staggering.

But I learned a ton and built up an intimacy with how to play music.

If I had had a "not touchin' the instrument unless I am getting paid" attitude, I would have missed all of that knowledge.

It is a fine line. Money, Experience, Time, Talent. None of it comes easy.

Just do what you think is right based upon the knowledge of what is around you.

Depending upon what you do, at some point you have to look somebody in the eye and tell them what you are going to charge them. Are you worth it?

Tim, the problem is many potential clients don't know the difference between a shingle hanger and experience. They price shop, not because they're cheap, because they don't know better.

Even a newbie has a right to pay the bills. That's the base rate. Profit increases as skills and quality of gear increases. If your business isn't going to tank you must be able to pay the bills both business and personal.

Paying dues can be done through internships, creating or working on "demo" projects,etc. NEVER give away your work if someone else will profit from it. You don't start a business until you believe you have a base level of competency. If you need projects to learn with one might consider donate time to do video projects for a not for profit for example, making sure you get credited. Their donors and the staff my become paying clients for projects outside the non for profit.

If you start with a paying rate for "for profit" clients that's too low, you'll cripple your business growth. If you're good, you'll word of mouth work at a rate so low it'll bankrupt you. You'll encourage bottom feeders who will continue to look for talented newbies who have no idea what your worth. Stick to a base rate to cover your bills and you can grow from there. NEVER charge Less. Only pay your dues on projects where the good will can be repaid in kind.

You are not incorrect!

I just think that the learning curve to produce what I think of as professional work is a lot longer than most want to think.

Doing some freebee jobs and then hanging your shingle so to speak, in my mind is not enough to charge pro rates.

You know it literally takes years of interacting with clients and finishing projects to get a firm grip on producing something of professional caliber.

I come from the point that I meet a lot of people/clients that have been burned by camera owners that charge their rate first and don't back up the results with any customer service, ethics or expertise.

So to me, it is o.k. to charge less if you are going to offer less.

But you are correct as well in that we need to stand up for what we do and charge for it. It is not easy to do this stuff at a high level.

Tim, every client I know looks at a demo. They immediately know what they're getting. What I find is the clients who DON'T KNOW will look at a good demo and ask for $25/hr. Well they're going to go out and get the newbie if that's the price they want.

I've seen dishonest newbies rip off clients with someone else's demo. That's another story. It's rare though.

The other aspects of experience not shown in a demo are ability to problem solve, meet budgets etc, happen when you meet with the client. That's SALES. Some clients don't know to ask those questions.

I find the biggest problems are newbies who charge TOO LITTLE, NOT TOO MUCH and clients who expect unreasonably low rates.

I've honestly seen very few shingle hangers who have little experience and charge too much. Look at the posts on this forum. Many newbies with low rates asking questions. I don't see anyone posting "I charged the client $250/hr and he's PO'd cause I charged too much."

I have certainly gotten my share of fix it jobs that were botched by newbies but that's because the newbie was charging very little and the client price shopped . . . and got exactly what they paid for.

I guess I have to ask, at what point are you not a 'shingle hanger' and become a 'pro'?

I like many here on the board have been doing this for over 25 years and did 12 years before that as a professional still photographer. When did I become a professional still photog? After 2 years, 3 or 10? after I shot 100 weddings, sports and news for the newspaper or after 2 years doing contract work for a product studio and doing 364 pages of a 366 page catalouge? When did I become a professional video cameraman? How many years or jobs does it take. Am I 1 today? 1600+ weddings hundreds of commerical/corporate jobs, TV shows, TV commericals? When did I qualify?
If you really want to stay true to the definition of professional it is as soon as one recieves compensation for a job. It has nothing to do with a specific amount of money time or quality of work.
I'm not arguing semantics just trying to understand one concept of professional.

Remember, some people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Those people usually get what they pay for and deserve.

Just one professionals opinion.

Don

You guys are on the money.

I will admit that I can be non traditional with my view of money and charging as I can see the consumer's point of view as well.

To me professional means experience and talent along with the aptitude to make your sole living from your craft.

Professional is a state of mind - always get the job done, have a backup plan, 100% attention to quality, serve your customer...

I don't think you qualify, it is how you act and execute.

It is all subjective, but I will stand by my idea that each person needs to decide for themselves what rate they are worth.