the salary thang... don't sweat it
 

I’ve seen many posts asking about salaries. First, I have to say if you’re in this for the money, you’re in the wrong biz. There are many jobs in which you can throw on a tie and make an easy six figures. Do that and save room for those who are so passionate about this that the thought of doing anything else has never enter their heads.

Now, because that passion is not that rare, rest assured there is a big stack of resumes on the desk of every production manager in the world sent by people who are very ready, willing and able that will go to work for free in order to get a chance to show somebody what they can do. Some hate the thought of working for free or minimum wage. I thought it was grand to get paid to learn more than what I paid a college to learn.

Let’s say you start at 5 bucks an hour. Sweet. Your foot is in the door and you’re on your way. In most industries, holding a job at one place for a really long time looks fantastic. I’m not gonna say it doesn’t in this industry but the best way to get a significant raise is to leave and get another job. Cost of living raises are not raises at all. I see them as insults and an invitation to move on. Now, as a receiver of resumes, I like to see a variety of places worked at. It shows a variety in softwares, hardwares, duties and personality combos. It also shows me they are not willing to settle for good enough and I like that.

This industry is a revolving door of talent and ideas so new blood is simply required. The more people move around, the more people can be moved around.
Okay, you’ve done your two years at 5 bucks an hour and have moved up 3 positions. Demand 8 bucks or split. If ya get it, stay and keep climbing. If not, just move on. You’ll get a job more in tune with what you need and want to do then.

Needs vary. With a rapidly-growing family I had to push hard every two years or so. I went from 3 bucks an hour to a salary less than that to 8 bucks an hour to 24k per year to 35k per year to 45k per year to 60k per year to 80k per year to six figures a year in a 13 year window. I moved my family to five states in as many years at one point. I worked 3 jobs at a time to get by when I needed to and I hate to say I neglected my family at times.

The closest I have ever come to making what I’m worth is today as a self-employed editor with my own gear. Only because I am weathered by the ways of the industry do I wonder if the hourly rate I now charge is worth the time away from my family. Nothing ever is ya know. Not he 3 bucks an hour your first employer insulted you with, not the raise you just received for a job well done an not the way-too-high rate you pull out of the air because you really don’t wanna mess with something. We’re not talking about that though. We’re talking about the required hours away from that wonderfulness that puts the food on the table. Man, I’ve put the food on the table some pretty bogus ways. We all know where to find high-paying jobs with security. We just know life is too short for that.

So, the salary thang. Don't sweat it. Take what's offered and grin doin' it. If the pay is low, the pay is temporary. You're makin' movies though. It's all good.

Thanks, Grinner, for the great post. I've followed your postings at other spots and always enjoyed them It's fantastic to see you come here!

You hit a lot of buttons for me. I'm juggling trying to get satisfying work, that actually pays a bit, but allows me to remain flexible to be there with my family. Especially with a new baby around. It's a challenge and forces one to make sacrifices on the one hand, but gain so much on the other. A balancing act.

Now, that being said, anybody around in Montreal that could offer me some camera or editing work in something that's NOT an event? I'd love to branch out a bit more...

(it never hurts to ask)

I'm of two minds about this commentary. My first reaction was that in an industry that is notorious for low pay, show biz in general, you are saying, "just take it, lad." When young hammer bangers are making more than young editors and shooters I view it as just wrong. Do we want to justify the cheapskate bosses paying less than a living wage? No, but it's a matter of supply and demand. As long as people are willing to work for the same pay as ACORN pays its picketers the problem will not go away. Much has been said elsewhere on this topic.

After thinking a second, I realized this industry would benefit from a centuries old system that expired for the most part about 60-70 years ago. Apprenticeship. If one thinks about it, it's a logical approach. Experienced staffers take the young-uns under their wing to train them. Perhaps a mutant version is what our industry supports today, without the benefit of a formal "graduation" from apprentice to professional, or whatever it was called.

It's a pitiful situation but a classic example of capitalism at work. Create a better product or service and your business with thrive. (I'm a fan of capitalism, by the way and this is not a political statement.)

So, merging both points I'd have to say to those coming up in this field I would have to say, "know your value and price yourself to that value." Once that has been realistically done, never give up. Never surrender. Those that do drag the rest of us down.

IMO.

The problem with accepting work at $3 an hour, or $5 or $10 or anything less than the correct hourly-wage equivalent, is that it devalues the industry in general. Every client who pays a young shooter or editor a mediocre rate is a client who is not paying industry rate anymore - and once they receive acceptable work for cheap, they're not likely to go back to outstanding work for big bucks. It's hard to raise prices in an industry that relies on referrals and repeat customers. "Why are you charging me $2,300? Billy Bob got the same package for $1,700 last year!"

How long are experienced professionals going to be able to make six figures a year when small-timers and young blood are working for sixpence? Sure, the top of the top will continue to pull in good money, but the average pro will experience significant devaluation. Look at the professional photography business for a preview of what's in store - quality video work still takes skill and significant capital in equipment, but technology marches ever on. Still photography used to require skill and expensive gear too.

In conclusion, I don't agree with accepting (as you said) 'insulting' wages just because one is new to the industry, with the expectation of still making a decent living after years of accepting half-pay.

Everyone starts for nada. When I started at 3.35 an hour, that's what minimum wage was at the time. Paying dues is part of opening doors. Don't look at is as exploitation. Look at it as getting paid a little to learn a lot more than ya did in college paying to learn a little.

What a succinct way to make a solid point. I agree with the arguments about undercharging devaluing the community but at the end of the day we all have to charge the rates we are comfortable with and that our markets will bare. There is a big difference in undercharging for a job and accepting a position with undervalued wages. When you are working for someone else they are assuming most of the risk and generally providing all the equipment, when it is your outfit you assume all the risk and have to price accordingly. Unless, I am misreading Grinner's posts he is mainly addressing employment for someone else not pricing for your independent work.

Just pointing out that you'll start for little to nothing in this industry. Many students get out of school with a degree and a thought or feeling that a career is then owed to them. They then realize they have to get in line behind the guys that started 2 or 4 years before them instead of going to school. They often have a chip on their shoulder about this. I didn't. I enjoyed college and had a blast. I learned a lot too. I'd not trade it. I don't kid myself though. I no more thought I'd use a degree then than I do now.
If a student (or non student) thinks they can just run out and start making six figures in this industry without starting at the bottom, they will be very temporary in this industry and will most likely go get a joe job. Like I said in my OP, if money is the motivator, make room for those of us who would never consider doing anything else for a living. The money, ironicly, will go to those most passionate about it because they will always be the best at it.

I strongly disagree. Regardless of whether one is an employee or has an independent business, accepting sweatshop level compensation devalues the income potential for all those below the top tiers of the business. Accepting lower pay than one believes they are worth drags everyone down.

I do, however, agree with Grinner's comment on passion as it is the fuel that fires the passion for quality and creativity.

The truth is, newbies are not worth much. It's why they are hired... because experience is not in the budget. It cost to train. That is worth it to many employers. Same here. I'd sooner hire two new editors who don't have an opinion or a place to be at 6pm at less than what I'd pay one editor with a decade of national network experience. This does not bring salaries down for all... if anything, it increases the salary of that experienced editor. When I need him, I need him now and will happily pay top notch for his expertise. I've hired entry level interns at 20 bucks an hour and have employed veterans I can leave unsupervised for many times that amount. It depends on my needs at the time. They work for what they need. This is the case in every industry.

You're right. I misspoke. It doesn't hurt everyone. Just those at the lower end of the scale.

Let me try to refine my point. If the universe of newbie editors believe their value in the market is $X and this backed up by research on their part of what the industry pay trends are at their skill level, and some pikey wants to hire one of them at half that rate the rest in that group will suffer. Raises will be lower and longer in coming and starting wages may fall some. There is bountiful information on wage/salary stats and trends including demographic and geographic breakdowns. Some you pay for. Some is free. Regardless, this industry ain't just that big and people talk, so secrets are hard to keep. If Alvin hires newbie Simon at a low wage and Theodore hears about it, he might rethink his salary parameters for his next hire.

I'll repeat, everyone should understand where their experience/skill and value meet. The result is a $/hr figure. When one grabs a gig at a rate lower than that, the rest in their experience/skill group suffers. I know I'm tilting at windmills as there will always be too many who think fame and glitz can be substituted for that other stuff. You know, money.

Only if they are addled or desperate. Would you knowingly leave money on the table in a deal?

In the 35 years since I graduated college, I've worked in five different industries for a dozen different companies and am building my second business into success. I strenuously disagree with your statement. Did personal career planning go out of style whilst I was napping? Career planning should start with the first application, resume or demo reel.

How much did your first TV gig pay?

That's what I'm sayin'.

If, as Grinner states in his above post, he pays interns $20 an hour, I'd HARDLY call that oppressive! And an ENTRY LEVEL salaried employee (with benefits, point source deductions and a "guaranteed" number of work hours per week) could reasonably expect to be paid less.

Now, $20 an hour for a seasoned pro OR someone using their own suite... THAT would be oppressive.

I agree that we should all strive to see fair and equitable wages or remuneration (freelance pay is not technically a wage...) BUT there are widely varied skill sets, especially amongst editors. For my first 2 or 3 years out of media college, I can't say looking back I'm terribly proud of the quality of the projects I edited. Getting the opportunity to be mentored and earn a living wage is a GREAT opportunity. Where I get miffed is the insulting "here's $100 AND it'll look great on your demo reel..."

I also get miffed when a visionary (but technically inferior) young editor tells me he'll work for $50 an hour ON MY SYSTEM but has no media management skills, no sense of timing, no idea what constitutes broadcast legal BUT man-oh-man can he use Magic Bullet Looks!

I think the problem is that in the age of iMovie and Youtube more and more people find video editing a task they need to learn. It's creating a new generation of people that have a use for this skill that was previously only used in feature films, television and corporate videos and commercials.

So now there are tons of people who think they are editors because they edited their vacation video on youtube, or made a video for their blog. So as in with any large influx of people, there will be more competition and wages will go down. It's like that in many fields and one needs to look no further than acting.

I think what bothers me more than the ads on craigslist looking for someone to shoot and edit a commercial for "copy and credit" are the people that counter post that go on ranting about how the people who take those jobs devalue the work of all other people that do the same job.

My take on the salary thang is that wages need to be earned.

If you do not have a lot of experience, then your should not charge the same as someone who does. Your rates should follow your career.

When starting out you can not avoid working for less. Even though this might be less than the industry wage, industry quality work is not being performed either.

At some point the customer needs to decide to take more of a risk or not.

We also do not need people charging an arm and a leg for poor results.

The apprentice approach is good except the industry is quite fragmented so it is tough to make this analogy on a global scale.

I have stated my opinions here before about salary calculators and wage expectations in our industry. In my view they only apply to established businesses. It is great to discover your expenses and living needs, but for somone who has no clients or a lot of work experience to look at a table and say "this is what I am supposed to be charging" does not work for me.

I come from a musical background and the same principle applies: You gain success when you can deliver the goods.

You have to know your craft and the only way is to get out and do a lot of work.

The marketplace sets the rates though, not the workers.

It seems that we are mostly in violent agreement. It's how we define and describe the situation that differs. Because of my long background in business, I use those terms. I also maintain that quality and value will and should be compensated for in the marketplace. What can upset that balance are people willing to work below their dollar value in exchange for fame or the cool factor of the job. The same goes for employers.

This is all business, if done correctly and one cannot go far wrong if proper business principles are adhered to regardless of which side of the boss' desk one sits.

BTW: My first paying "TV" job was to create a video tour of radio station KFRC for the program director to take to the NAB in 1974. I did it with a rented camera and cut it in a rented bay somewhere down in Mountain View. I think I made US$300 gross which was pretty big for a few hours work for a kid still in college.

We all want to make money, but what I get from Grinner's post is that if you start out in this business, which is essentially an artistic one, focusing only on money, you won't get far.

Rely on your passion for what you do, get good at it, and the money will come.

If, like Tripp, you also have good career planning skills, the money may come faster.

As for accepting lower than 'standard' wages, that's a tough one. This industry has a long tradition of internship. And sometimes non-paid, not just badly paid. I don't see that going away any time soon.

I also think it's a bit unrealistic to expect some 18 year old kid with stars in his eyes to go out there with a spreadsheet of standard wages as a reference and only accept work within these standards. If he or she is dying to make movies, they'll probably dive in there and do it for nothing if they have to.

This happens a lot in hard economic times. I bid $500 for a job last spring, and that was my absolute lowest price, because I could really use the money. Someone else underbid me $250, and frankly I don't know how they could make money. Problem is, this is union work but solidarity goes out the window when scrounging for crumbs. No one knows who the lowball bidder was (the person is wisely keeping as low profile) but everyone is pissed that s/he is ruining it for everyone who'll ever try to get a similar contract with this producer - or any other producer who'll hear of this cheap-as-dirt freelancer.

That's what I tell anyone who asks me about film school. Buy a few books, read this forum, and take the time and money you'd spend on school and make 2-3 short films instead.


J.

If just one of those books is on business, I'm right behind you. Regardless of whether you're in this business or any other one, or if you're indie or working for someone, we all need to watch out for our own best interests. Then you'll be ready to start making your films.

I remember years ago there was a guy working at a radio station that had only enough money for Mac and Cheese for food. He was a nice guy and good on the air, to my ears anyway. He ended up dumping out of the business and working for his dad so that he could afford to live, and eat a more varied and healthy diet. His lack of business acumen conspired against him, plus other things. He was my friend and it hurt me to see him in that place.

Arm yourself for battle, because it's tough out there.

Yes but COLLABORATE with others on those films or else you risk doing nothing more than reinforcing bad habits and not actually learning anything USEFUL. As long as one works alone, it doesn't matter how inept or clueless one is - put that same person in a high price, high productivity environment and they will sink (or just offend EVERYONE around them that has taken the time to learn their craft PROPERLY).

Yes, you are right - the ONLY way to get better is to DO DO DO. Just make sure you aren't reinforcing BAD habits (like I do every time I head out for a round of golf...)

I have to totally agree with Shaun on this subject. 90% of what I know about this business I learned after college. I have been fortunate to work for or with some of the finest shooters, editors, producers, gaffers, etc. on this planet and I have absorbed most of what I know from them. All the books and online tutorials in the world are no substitute for training, experience and working with others with more skills than yourself. And like Shaun said don't shortchange the business education either.

This reminds me of an interesting anecdote from MY earliest days working in broadcast (as a camera assist on a travel destination show).

The DOP/Operator was (and still IS) an incredible NATURAL LIGHT videographer. He is absolutely the LAST guy to pull a light out of his kit. He'd rather bounce, reposition, move blinds etc. rather than throw up a single light.

After working with him in the field for 5 days and proving my work ethic, we were set to do "in studio" host segments - here the studio was a luxury condo on the 17th floor of one of the most prestigious buildings in Winnipeg (our "hi-rises" only go up to 32 floors...)

So, I ASKED him if he'd allow me to light the set IN THE LOCATION THAT HE CHOSE to see if we could make it look better. And if he didn't like the lighting, ALL we had to do was turn it off. DONE. And I agreed to light it over crew lunch so there would be NO disruption of shooting.

Comes back from lunch and looks at his monitor critically (we were shooting BetaSP on a BVW600, the most expensive analog Betacam) first with his setup then with my lighting. He turns to the producer and says "Shaun lights all the interviews from now on. Nobody else gets to make suggestions or get in his way or we go back to natural."

I lit my butt off for the next three days but that day I earned my stripes and got hired on for the next two installments of the show as DOP/Operator - the original DOP chose to take other gigs so I didn't displace him at all and there are NO hard feelings.

BTW, this show aired internationally and was my very first Lighting Director credit and the follow ups were my first international DOP credits.

I got fed up with low wages and working for someone else in unsecured positions that I decided to just go get a full time job in a warehouse untill I can afford my own gear... though I don't know if I'm better off spending the money on making a showreel with hired equipment...or spending more money and getting into debt buying my own gear.

No simple challenge there. What I do know is that you will never further your video career working in a warehouse. There have been many people over the course of my career that have been personally frustrating and some have simply made me seriously angry, but it's been the price of admission.

Pillocks are part of the price of admission in any career. If you quit because of them you will never make any headway. You understand your choices. Find the one you dislike the least and make it work.

ditto.
Understand that if you try to skip the proper experience to run your own video company, you'll just be undemployed with an overhead when ya purchase gear. You are learning much more than technical techniques when interning and much more than business when running a department later on. Skip these things and you are greatly handicapping yourself when your competition has been there and done that. Warehouse work is simply not the proper training for the job.

$12.50 an hour right after I got my degree......would I have worked for less? Not much.
But that's just me......Course now I run my little company, and charge much more
than what any TV station would be willing to pay me. After 8 years or so, I figured out
that me and those in charge at the TV stations had a very fundamental disagreement
over how much I was worth......so I left and let them hire some guys off
the street with no experience or even schooling in TV and I started my own company
and started charging what I thought I was worth. And wonder of wonders, I even
found a few clients that have agreed with me.....

They all do if they are clients. None of them want a 12 buck an hour product, even when they have no budget.
Thank you for validating my point. So many get a chip on their shoulder thinking they'll leave with their degree to make big bucks. They can... after a decade or so of experience.

Well, SOME clients (not ones I would want anyways) DO actually want the $12/hr TV
employees making their spot.....cause you know the TV station throws in free production
with an airtime buy lots of times. So price can be a big factor especially in this
day and age. But I would HIGHLY agree with some of the above comments. Get
a business background somehow, read books, research, or get experience managing
a business. It will help you in many ways.....the problem with many in this field is that
they DON'T have a good business background. Unless you want to continue to work for
very little......(and trust me, as you get older, you won't want to).

But this is a good subject, and although there seems to be disagreement, I think
there is more agreement than it might appear. I worked for low pay (in my
market, $12.50 isn't much, guys working at the local grocery store make more)
because I got to learn. And learn I did, I got to be producer/director of 12 weekly
newscasts, plus be the chief photographer and editor, and give shooting and editing
workshops......I learned a TON!

However, I had no loyalty to the company, if they wanted to pay low wages,
they have to understand that people are constantly going to have to be replaced
as they will be looking to move on. It was funny, cause in the newsroom, reporters
and photogs would always take a quick peek online at the job openings around
the country when they had a minute of spare time.....but they were very discrete
about it. I basically didn't care, and when my news director
asked me what I was doing, I told her I was looking at other jobs. She told me
'You better be careful, we can monitor the sites you visit and see if you are trying to
get another job'. I told her 'You don't have to monitor the sites, I just TOLD YOU I am
looking for another job!' I mean they are trying to get their product on the air for
as little as possible, I understand that. They must also understand that I am going
to look to get paid as much as possible.....no hard feelings, but they certainly weren't
looking out for me, so I had better look out for myself.

So yeah, many times in this business we start out working for relatively little. We
learn, and subsist on ramen and mac and cheese.
Then as we know more, we start to want more compensation. So we ask for a raise.
We are either given a raise, or (much more often times in my experience) told that
we will not be getting a raise as the company does not have the money. So we
move on to another job where we CAN make more money, or we start our own
business doing the same type of thing. It's not that much different from a LOT of
other jobs out there, very rarely do you get to start out on top. You start out near
the bottom and work your way up......even the state government jobs here work
that way. Expecting that you should start out on top, making a ton is not realistic.
And it is also not realistic for the companies paying low wages to expect us to
reward them with some kind of 'loyalty' for 'taking a chance' on us when we get
a chance to make more money.

I don't think we disagree at all.
We start for little to nothin'. We don't mind because we love it and will get paid well for it later.

Put down the Kool Aid and step away.

It's always easier to lower your price or fee than it is to raise it. This is why the dealer doesn't offer a price lower than you're willing to pay for a car.

If you don't negotiate, reasonably of course, then you will leave money on the table that you will never get back. Ever. It's gone. Poof.

exactly.
Don't pass up opportunity in the name of foolish pride.
We're all saying the same thing.
lol

Well I can't afford to work for nothing since I got myself into debt when I was younger and stupider. But I've nearly paid it all off now, so it's either go work for someone else for nothing probably doing video work I'm not even interested in, or buy my own gear (get into debt again, but for something worthwhile) and do what I want. I might work full time in a warehouse at the moment but I still shoot videos in my spare time, even took a week of holiday leave and did a corporate video for $1600. I'm still reading books/forums & doing short courses etc. I've worked for small video production houses in the past so I've got a little bit of experience.