Shaun, Couldn't have said it better myself. There are many people he in Alberta that feel the exact same way and are sticking to their guns. The problem is the ones that have been laid off and still want to work in the "industry" so they take these gigs.

OK so you spent a bunch of money. What is your point?

The turnhere videos are quick turn-out, low production cost and value commercial spots. Do you really believe that because you have an overkill of gear needed for a shoot and more experience and qualifications than needed that you are somehow worth your cost to produce a turnhere spot?

I'm not calling into question your ability to produce some great video. But I don't think your skills are what's needed for turnhere. I don't even understand your point in posting regarding this turnhere issue. No one is asking you to produce spots for turnhere or turnhere level pay. But you sure seem to be ticked and defensive about it.

By your reasoning, if I read you right, a highly skilled chef with years and years of experience who takes a job flipping burgers at McDonalds, should get paid hundreds of dollars per hour.

I'm not going to drop a challenge but I know for a turnhere spot, I can use a panasonic gs120, cheap tripod and lav mic, and produce a turnhere style and quality spot every bit as good as what you could with your $330,000 gear.

Of course if you really want to challenge me in a turnhere style yellow pages spot, I'll accept. If your gear is so great and your talent is so fantastic, the differences in the quality of our work should be very apparent.

Jeff

Actually TurnHere has a basic equipment list that's a "little" higher, although you're right that a GS120 qualifies as a "3 chipper"... <wink>. Talent beats gear anyhow. Gear depreciates and is replaced with newer and better - talent you've either got or you don't and age and experience are always helpful. Doesn't mean that technology and economics won't obsolete you TOMORROW, so good idea to keep your eyes and ears open, lest you join "the last typesetter" on display in a dusty museum.

I think the point is that they offer a basic product at a basic price (McDonalds is a good analogy), someone has to shoot and edit these, and it really doesn't require a huge investment in equipment or time, if you've got some spare time and the gear and edit chops, couldn't hurt to pick up some extra $$...

IF you're a "pro" and are shooting in that market, great, the fancy steakhouse needs someone to "cook" too... market yourself and stick to that market. We're not talking filet mignon for a quarter pounder price OR vice versa.

At least we've heard from people who have actually worked for TH, and are happy. Being in the middle of nowhere, I am not surprised TH hasn't tossed many "jobs" direction... but I'm ontheir list, and might look into trying to promote their "special" locally myself, although the "local" economy is pretty lousy.

Jeff, I'll choose to ignore the fact that your last post is blatantly aggressive toward me and borders on Internet Trollism and respond simply to a "question" you facetiously proposed - if companies like TurnHere DIDN'T exist to make money off OUR backs, the market would be forced to search out professionals (or rank amateurs for that matter...) to do the work at a price point AT LEAST equal to the sum of what TH pays PLUS what TH collects as their "percentage" and I would argue that THAT dollar figure would be a LOT less insulting and less prone to undermining the hard work of those of us who do this for a LIVING, and not just a hobby that we decide to charge "beer money" for.

I won't accept your challenge to shoot and edit a spot, nor will I call you out to "meet me at the flag pole at 3:30" like the bullies did in my Junior High School.

I wasn't bragging about my gear but until someone is willing to put REAL business practices into place (such as "right tool for the job"), they aren't running a business. I'm tired of people trying to "fool" their way around broadcast standards and I'm tired of people undermining the long term viability of my chosen PROFESSIONAL field. Would you go to a "mechanic" that only had a pair of pliers, a hammer and an all-in-one screwdriver? Probably not. I'm suggesting that no company should be looking to someone with a $300 handicam with oncamera mic to do anything promotional.

I'm proud of my back catalog of work and even prouder of the mentoring and sharing of LEARNED knowledge I have provided to many just starting out, both in terms of video production as well as running a BUSINESS that provides video production. I ask everyone to ask themselves what THEY have contributed to the community as a whole.

I am FAR from the most talented person on this forum and readily admit that. I do think however the bar has been lowered significantly in the last ten years as to who can call themselves a "videographer" in terms of OVERALL skill set.

Shaun,

I too have a have a professional education in broadcasting (mine from Specs Howard School of Broadcast Arts) I've worked in large market radio and television stations using big time gear. I've also run my own audio and video production company. I have produced hundreds of projects including TV spots, training videos, promotional videos, marketing videos, and demos. I do have examples of my work in those areas and others to support my claim. I'm sure you have samples of your work.

Your focus is in a different area than mine was. While I certainly respect your expertise and ability, I believe that when we talk about the type of video for turnhere productions and the quality (or lack of) required, your work isn't necessarliy better than mine or anyone else's simply by virtue of how much money you've spent or what kind of gear you are using.

Now if we were to have a match off for some really high tech, in-depth stuff, you would probably win hands down. But the topic of the thread is about turnhere. It shifted around a bit but the focus of my postings has stayed pretty much on topic.

You don't have to have expensive gear to produce turnhere projects. Just take a look at some of the videos on their site. $400 worth of gear will work. I know that just as sure as I know that if I drop a rock, it's going to hit the ground. Turnhere may want you to have more expensive gear, but how are they to know what you really used?

You mentioned how you are "tired of people trying to "fool" their way around broadcast standards". We are not talking about BROADCAST standards. We are talking about WEB quality standards for turnhere productions. There is a huge difference. You know that. I would not use a little cheap camera for broadcast TV production, although in some instances it will work quite sufficiently for the local cable outlet. A couple car dealers do it a lot around here.

I doubt turnhere is trying to attract video people of your caliber. But why bash them or anyone who may do work for them. They aren't competing for the same customers as you, are they?

If someone is content to work for less than you (or beer money) does that make them any less professional than you? Is there a dollar amount that is the dividing line between professional and amateur?

I think it's great that you are making a living from video. I do not. I make a living from writing, consulting, producing audio and video projects, creating and selling tutorials, and a real job in management. I live in a very rural area. If I were to rely on only one talent or capability, I would have a hard time supporting my family and lifestyle.

I don't expect to change your mind or make you see things my way. And, I will not suggest everyone jack their prices sky high to help maintain the integrity of the "video industry".

By the way, I would go to a mechanic who only had a hammer, pliers, and screwdriver IF those were the tools needed to get the job done. But if he was going to charge more because he was going to use a gold-plated hammer, pliers, and screwdriver that he spent a huge amount of money on, I'd probably tell him forget it and look for someone who could meet my needs, not have my wallet meet their needs.

Jeff

Thank you for a very complete and rational response

My point here is that I do believe they are. I believe that a company that introduces a "bargain basement" business model is going to create a niche market where the INITIAL handful of response MAY be of low calibre BUT folks begin to "compete" more and more to "win" market share and prove their worth, throwing more and more "free" assets at a project in a pissing contest that no one wins and we as creative and technical professionals lose by the overall value of our work being devalued.

I never set out to "win" an argument or debate - I solely set out to educate the other party of a side of the discussion that they may not be aware of or consider to the same degree that I do. And I do appreciate your virtual "olive branch".

And for the record - my CONTINUED and CONTINUAL usage of the term "professional" is not intended to stratify myself or others above any other video makers; it is solely to denote those that earn a significant portion of their living wage from video related pursuits - a very important factor to consider in any debate SOLELY because it helps to understand where someone is coming from and why preservation of a profitable business model is so important to me and my fellow "professional" video makers.

In the spirit of the season, good tidings and thank you for a good debate. Here's hoping that those entering the business, whether as full timers or as someone just testing the waters, can find some wisdom in our communal experiences.

that free video deal isn't a bad deal. I shot one spot for them, and the paperwork turned out to be a big pita. BUT, i could probably shoot 2-3 free videos per day and make more
per week at $225 a spot than I do at my salaried job. I think I shall go soliciting. My
gear is just sitting in the closet right now anyways.

Scott, since you already shot your "qualifying" free video and got paid (I hope) then they should be calling you with shoots. You are in Lexington, Kentucky which I assume would have an average customer base. They claim they have plenty of work to go around (at least they did in the webinar I attended).

I am getting ready to start pounding the streets for my 1st Free Video for TurnHere (that is free for the customer but I will get paid if TurnHere accepts it). But it was my impression that this opportunity helps to qualify you as a TurnHere shooter.

Did they tell you that you had to shoot more than 1 to qualify yourself? I thought the whole purpose was two-fold: 1 - to help promote TurnHere's special and 2 - You can use this special to help get qualified. They did tell me I would have to shoot one or two during our last phone conversation (it went up from 1 to 2).

I know at least one representative of TurnHere is aware of this thread. I won't name names, but they may or may not choose to respond and explain or clarify misconceptions.

I’ve been following this thread from the beginning and would like to know from a TurnHere Shooter who actually ended up receiving regular paid jobs. It seems to me that the shooter has to do a lot of work in order to ‘so call qualify’. Gets paid a pittance for it along a promise of future work. Anyone got more than five jobs from TurnHere?

Sure it wouldn’t be too bad if you were getting 2/3 gigs a day five days a week, but is anyone getting even close to that? I doubt it! I think they like just having shooters qualify as they can pay a pittance, sure if they are really stuck, which I’m sure they are at times then they’ll use a shooter on there list and roll with the extra cost, but how often is that?

Tom, just so I'm clear. At best you will make $225 for your video IF Turnhere likes it and IN ADDITION you are now doing their marketing for them by pounding the pavement? Please let us know how many hours you put in getting that shoot and be sure to factor in the cost of your gear, software, etc. so we'll have an accurate indicator of what you made per hour.

I should hope so. I submit that Turnhere makes their money on the constant turnover of starry eyed videographers who mistakenly believe that if they shoot a job every day they could make a living. The reality is that the client list is finite and the need for repeat/updated videos is almost nonexistent . Additionally, Turnhere keeps your raw video and uses this stock footage to repurpose your work and create other commercials that cost them almost nothing. As Shaun has pointed out and I've learned from a long time in this business even at the low end of the spectrum this is not a sustainable way for a videographer to make a living and helps none of us in the broader video world.

There are a ton of these ad delivery sites around. I would not be surprised if most of these sites that deliver video ads are gone when the money they raised is gone. I would bet the sales staff that these sites employ is geared toward hooking more investors, not selling their product. The only possible profit would be by selling the company to google or microsoft for much more than they are worth. Lala Media was "valued" at 180 million and Apple bought them for 18 million which included something like 14 million in cash funding that was left - which brings the actual value to 4 million. I think I read that they were going through half a million a month so their days were numbered. Warner Bros. had invested 20 million in the company and just wrote off 11 million of that investment.

Has anybody here ever had their buying decisions influenced by one of these ad sites? Sooner or later their investors will figure it out.

It's kind of like Paystar who told their investors they would sell 1.2 million Mac clones and didn't even sell 700 clones - you know they were just writing out their weekly paychecks from the capitol they raised.

My advice is that if you can knock on doors and sell something like Turnhere you can make a lot better money by selling your own services or for that matter anything else. Sales is a very valuable skill!

I wish I had it...

Funny you should mention...

THAT is the professional development I am working hardest on right now...

I wonder why you would sell to TH to make $225 when you could do the entire thing your self for a min of $1000 and give them a video that they can used when ever where ever they like without having to pay a monthly fee. If I was an owner I would rather pay a one time cost of 1-2 thousand bucks and have a video I can put on my website, on you tube have on a TV in my business then pay a monthly fee to have the video on one site only.

That is of course the rub. The national company will charge probably a similar fee to the local provider, but the national provider will place (in my biased opinion) unnecessary restrictions (both technical and legal) on the use of the video, most likely tied to a subscription service of some sort.

Whereas if the business had contracted directly with someone in our position, then their ability to use the video would most likely be nearly unlimited, and as the primary provider, we would bend over backwards to form a lasting business relationship with the company.

But the national company is the one tied in to all the big money yellowpages companies (both print and digital) and so their marketing money was what brought in the client in the first place.

the first spot i did for them was NOT a freebie, they actually called me with a client.
I have not been called since despite them saying they loved the spot.

For others reading this - TurnHere's policy is that YOU get paid $200 or $225 (I guess depending upon your location) for shooting their free video promotion as long as they accept your work. All video work done for them has to be done to acceptable standards. That seems very reasonable.

Like I mentioned before, this is deal is not for everyone. I am more interested in seeing how many people have actually been called back for regular shoots.

Ding Ding Ding. I was doing this BEFORE I even HEARD about Turnhere. Turnhere has
the advantage of having 'national' contacts as they are contracted by Yellowpages and
such to provide their videos for them......this gives clients the perceived benefit of
'national exposure'. But really, this thread seems to be about the value placed on
video work. I think that one of the reasons people may do this, is the crappy economy.
If you are having problems getting work, to many people making a couple hundred
dollars can help keep the 'wolves' from the door. We all do what we have to to survive.
That being said, my general feeling is similar to Shaun's in that I think the pay is
very subpar. However, as I said, I did do ONE of these shoots, and it wasn't very hard
and I DID get paid. It helped me make my house payment that month, so I'm not
going to complain. That being said, this is not the kind of pay I am looking for, or
would normally accept. So, I guess I can see both sides of the argument here.

Alright I just had to chime in here. I've done work for Turn Here going on three years now. No it's not high paying but for someone like me it works. I haven't had time to set up and track down clients for a true business lately so the occasional job from them is a nice change and a little extra money. As for having to do all the leg work for them that's just not true. Besides a few days ago posting their link for a free video (which they do pay you for) I haven't approached any business (if I did I would charge them the money to make the video.) TurnHere has always called me offering jobs. If I don't feel like taking it or if I have something going on I don't have to do it. Also the $200-$225 price isn't quite right either. I've been paid more than that for a couple of videos and I know they pay more depending on what the video is or who the client is. I'll admit TurnHere isn't for everyone but for me I like the extra cash for not a lot of work. Also it is a very good way to find some clients and TurnHere has no problem with you doing work for those people as long as you let them know on that particular job you're doing work for TurnHere. Okay I've said my peace. Just thought everyone should know a little more before bashing them, yeah it would be great to get paid a little more but for what it is it's not really all that bad

I assume the $200-225 is paid 1099, no taxes, social security, medicare, taken out. So at the end of the year you pay more taxes because your considered both the employer and the employee. $x isn't the same as get $x as a W2, plus of course no health insurance and no unemployment and no points towards social security.

What about the time it takes to capture the video to your computer? You shoot an hour it takes and hour to capture.

I understand for some of you who work for TH, its better than nothing and expands you contacts for your own business, but I still think your downplaying the amount of time involved from start to finish.

1 hr travel time (30 min each way with traffic. could be less could be more)
1.5 hrs setup, shooting and breakdown
1 hr capture
1-2 hrs edit
.5 hr upload

5-6 hrs if you're efficient for $200-225 ($35-45/hr pre tax income)

I do agree with you Pete that it does take some time to complete even a one minute video for them. Uploading the video really doesn't take all that long because the files aren't that large. If I had regular clients no I probably wouldn't be doing work for TurnHere because of the pay but as I said for me the occasional work is nice until I have time to get a business started and do this full time

I forgot its only a 1 min finished so yes that wouldn't too bad to upload

i just got called from turnhere for two projects, going to shoot them both in the same day.

schemes like this wreck prices for the professional people who need to live from it.

but hey - it is a free market.

And every day market pressures are trying to get us to deliver for closer to free. Interesting...

There will always be people wanting us to do the work for free or cheap. Saying "no" (or giving those clients to other people) is the key to maintaining business profitability.

You can always change your mind when it comes to "survival mode", of course.

Andrew

If you work for free, or almost free - it is not survival. Survival would be to go and stack shelves instead.

Just the other day I got a call from one of the major agencies here. They explained in length the project, not terribly difficult but about a good day's work. They wanted something looking cool with good editing and some fancy effects. I asked about the budget. They said, "we don't have one". I said ok, but how much are you willing to spend? (naively thinking "no budget" means "no real budget" They said, ehmm - we just said there is NO budget, so I asked them if they are asking me to do it for free? Their reply was that the client asked them to ask... - .... - .... - after a pause I really had a hard time to remain polite, declining the "job".

Now - the thing is, I do a lot of free or micro budget stuff, but it is always either experimental, art, dance or some kind of "save the dolphin" thing. But this was for an international car manufacturer with global advertising budgets in the hundres of millions....

I understand that people who are not professional and want to get started in the business do things for free or very cheap just to get work and to "get published" but it is a risky path that has to be walked with caution. Even though it sounds good, a very cheap "getting to know me offer" might land you your first job with a client. But honestly, why should they pay you what the job is worth if you were able to do it much cheaper the first time. I have tried this and in my experience: It doesn't work.

As I mentionned, I do a lot of dance stuff, mostly contemporary and modern. The companies are really struggling for money, dancers get paid close to nothing. Still I charge the companies real money. What I charge is about 30% of what I would charge commercial clients but they come up with the money and pay. Even though there are a lot of people out there who would do it for free. I do it better, they know, they want it, I give everything to make it the best I can, and they pay. And more and more companies get referred by people I worked for.

One of my old bosses (when I still had one...) used to say: "Pay Peanuts - Get Monkeys"

or like someone else said:

"if it costs nothing - it's worth nothing"

which is certainly true for many areas, fashion, cars, photography, art....

There are other sayings such as ...

"It's okay to bend over backwards to please a customer, but that doesn't mean we want to bend over forwards."

Andrew

Very few shoots with TurnHere
 

I have done two shoots last year for TurnHere. Two all year. Here are the links to the videos I produced and are on YellowPages.com
New Image MedSpa:

http://www.yellowpages.com/info-1481...mage-MedSpa%3F

Americus Dental Associates:

http://www.yellowpages.com/info-4294...auto_play=true

I got paid as promised in a timely manner. My question is why only two shoots? You can judge for yourself the quality of my work by viewing the videos. Is it my work or something else on their end? The paperwork is a bit of a hassle and preparing the videos for upload gave me trouble, but I enjoyed the work. On the MedSpa shoot, I did the VO myself. Anyways, there is my two cents. BTW, I am assuming TurnHere will contact me for work in my area, which is Columbus, GA.

Links not working, unfortunately.

Andrew

Links work here.

When rotating your clips for Web delivery, make sure to zoom into them enough so that you can't see the black null space around the clip. Several clips have issues in the dental office piece.

Larry: the Med Spa piece is significantly better than the dental office piece. If I could offer one bit of advice, consider giving the movement in your shots a little more forethought. In one clip you reverse the move in the shot and dissolve out. In others the movement seem tentative. If you don't nail the move, go back and repeat it. And if you are going to do kinetic shooting, get the best tripod you can afford. Or more accurately, find a way to afford a better tripod.

Thanks for sharing and welcome to DVi!

Larry,

Not bad work. Sure, others may have done it differently, but they didn't do it did they? You did!!

Your voice-over in the medspa spot did sound a bit mechanical, like forced annunciation, but they message was easy to get.

Why only two shoots? Who can say? It could be any one of a number of factors. Perhaps there just isn't a demand right now.

I've been contacted via (unsolicited) email by an upper echelon member of TurnHere regarding my postings in this thread. I won't say who it was or what was said, but I can assure you that TurnHere is completely aware of the what's been said here.

Jeff

Glad to hear it. I stand by my words and will live (or die) by them. One of the things I love about DVi is that it is a real names board.

I hope that it was only my inner cynic that read this news as a potential "threat" that "they know who's being naughty and who's being nice". It is in MY best interest to protect my market share. And as a part time educator, it is in my PROFESSIONAL interest to point out to my students that their actions may have consequences, both to themselves in terms of being "blacklisted" and to the industry in general in terms of undercutting.

In all seriousness, if the bottom completely falls out of video production, I'll move on to driving truck, selling tools, flipping burgers, whatever. I LOVE what I do for a living, and as long as there is an opportunity to maintain it as a viable livelihood, I'll speak out where I can. If it becomes no longer viable, I'll get a "real" job and make important films for free for people who need and appreciate it.

And for the record, advice and critique WAS requested. I don't make a habit of offering advice unsolicited. That would be bad form.

Larry, two shoots is likely all of the market penetration TurnHere has at the moment in YOUR market. Armed with your reel, and your growing experience, why not approach businesses yourself and offer to put them up on the Web? YouTube is free, as is Google Local Search, so all the local business has to do is pay your going rate for a Web spot creation.

So why wait around for a non-local entity like TH to generate business in YOUR town? Generate it yourself, and get paid what you are worth. I think you'll find local business and your local Chamber of Commerce are almost untapped (and un-touched) by meaningful video production. I see enormous growth for it in the next several years.

FWIW, I agree with Shaun's critique. I would also say try to avoid using a zoom at all. There's a reason they're almost never used in feature films and used ALL OVER THE PLACE by armchair videographers. A dolly move, a push, gentle tilt, rack focus... cinematic moves. I've read that the zoom "feels" unnatural because the human eye can't zoom... the other camera moves, it can do (by moving one's head or one's body).

HTH,
Brian Brown
BrownCow Productions

Shaun, would you please stop taking anything I write as a comment about you. I was referring to "others" in general and I would have done it differently than Larry.

I respect your opinion and work but you are not so important to me that I want to go out of my way to pick at you.

Stop wearing your feelings for socks and they won't be so easily stepped on.

Jeff

Reflections from the peanut gallery:
 

I've investigated and corresponded with TH and am still on the fence. One concern of mine about TH's terms is that I'm in a very heavily populated market, yet their offer to me is/was only $ 200. I don't know how/why they would pay more ($ 225) in other markets; haven't figured that out yet. Maybe because I'm on the opposite coast and/or there are so many more shooters to pick from in my market. (I don't mean to make/provide excuses).

My biggest disagreement with these companies is that often, AFAIK, mine is the only face they see during the entire process. I could make or break a shoot/business relationship depending on how I treat the client, yet there seems no remuneration at all for being a sort-of "sales force". I'd really like to see an arrangement something like their normal fee for shooting/directing, plus maybe a 2% to 5% commission/residual of the total - or at least initial - sale.

I've done jobs similar to these for 2 other companies, but won't mention names.
The 1st I worked for gave me only 1 or 2 shoots; haven't heard back from them in months. Also, I've noticed that the spots created from those shoots are no longer posted on the web. Those jobs required shooting & directing on-site, but no editing or sales effort, other than being considered a "representative" of their business while on-site, in the sense of mine being the only face the client sees and deals with in person. (Personally, I've been very accommodating and friendly, despite telling the client that I was not an employee of the company, and think that, in itself, deserves more than they pay). They paid slightly less than TH offers.

The 2nd has been very accommodating. I can always turn down a job if I'm already booked, and, if they specifically want me, they've even gone so far as to re-schedule jobs to accommodate my schedule, handling all the rescheduling arrangements with the client. It performs all sales, scheduling & contact w/client, (except for a call from me the day before to confirm time & availability). It even provides a storyboard, and requires only that I shoot following that SB, keep a shot list, obtain releases, and send off the tape and paperwork, (though I wish they allowed for FTP transfer rather than sending tapes).
These jobs are the most fun. (I've even appeared in a few shoots when we were short of on-camera characters).
Most jobs are scheduled for 2 hrs; longer scheduled times get higher pay. They encourage b-roll, which probably gets me more call-backs, but no additional $ for the time taken to shoot it.
If a job runs over, I can call to get permission to extend the shoot and, if granted, the extra cost falls on the client. No editing required from me.
They pay for the job and reimburse for tape, mileage (though less than the Federal/IRS rate), and postage. They even provide me with their shipper's account number so I don't have to lay out $ for that. Because there's no editing, these jobs are much faster to complete, and I've done as many as 3 in 1 day. (Matter of fact, for one very select client, I got paid more than I invoiced; seems I misunderstood the payment terms on that specific job and they corrected it without me even mentioning it).
After reimbursement, the $ varies; sometimes more than TH, sometimes less; depends on the distance, but because time spent is considerably less, I make it up in volume. Last year I did as many as 30 jobs for them and I've learned that I'm among their most frequently called shooters in my area. (Round-trip travel for some jobs is in excess of 100 miles).
Personally, I welcome these jobs and hope to get even more this year, because they help me pay some bills in this slow economy. They can also provide potential opportunities for additional work (see below).

Other things/tips I've learned that may help indies doing these spots on their own:
1) depending on the client, there are opportunities for you to pick up other work. Example: if the client is a "gathering place" of any kind, you may be able to pick up additional work from them, e.g. seminars, meetings, banquets, parties, etc. Be sure to leave a business card, contact info, and a good impression.
2) each company encourages as much b-roll as possible. I think I've learned why: after a period of time (not sure how much), they re-cut from the original footage and post what amounts to a different or updated spot. Indies could do the same, i.e. get lots of footage on the initial shoot, and store it. Then, after a period of 3-6 months, replace the original spot with a re-cut from that stored footage. No additional shooting is required...only some additional editing/upload time, and you never even have to leave your studio. It could serve as a great marketing tool, i.e. you're aware of - and prepped to deal with - clips going "stale" over time, and new footage gives a better perception of a busy, vibrant business. You could charge what you want for that service.
3) both companies I've shot for charge the client a (relative) boatload of $. One job I've done involved shooting over 2 days, took about 12 hourstotal time, about 5-6 locations, and the client told me what they were being charged. Knowing that vs what I was paid, I got peanuts and the company got the main course. I was really kind of proud of the footage I provided and disappointed that I didn't earn more for it.
4) most spots are between 30 and 60 secs, though they can be as long/short as you and the client agree to. I've done one which might almost qualify as a "short". That was scripted and storyboarded with lots of input from the client, who had a specific vision of what he wanted. I showed him all the footage, and he was so pleased, he even tipped me.
That spot after company editing was approx. 3 mins long.
5) from most shoots, I end up with approx. 20 min of footage. Depending on how the client(s) take direction and respond, that can involve multiple takes, lots of b-roll, and even shots not called-for in the SB, but each take usually includes at least a few seconds of usable footage/"bites" for later use.

Working for such companies is really a personal decision, but thus far, I've enjoyed it and hope to do more. (Nearly everyone I've met on these shoots has been great; very interesting, funny - even "provocative" people), mostly willing to go to any length to help you get footage you're satisfied with. Many help set the scene, dress the set, and even catch some things you might not notice while working alone, such as an exposed T-shirt or bra-strap. Most are willing to let you call the shots and be creative as you want, as long as you satisfy the SB. The hardest part is keeping them focused on the time. For them, shoots like these are novelties - something fun and out of the ordinary; for you, it's your work.

While I'm still undecided about TH, I hope to continue to get work from these houses, particularly the 2nd company, at least until my network broadens enough to get more lucrative work. (Lately, that seems to be happening; I've recently rec'd small jobs to provide on-screen testimonials and serve as a "spokesperson"...all using a pseudonym, of course).

Good luck to those who choose this option.

Addendum to Reflections:
 

Apologies for dragging this out, but my intention is three-fold:
1) to be helpful to indies who might pursue these short web spots on their own,
2) to let shooters for these companies know some of what they might face if they decide to pursue these jobs, and
3) to encourage businesses that hire shooters for such spots to re-think their compensation.

While these spots are not feature-length productions, a decent-to-good shooter/director/editor can be a real asset to growing a company's business.

To elaborate on what I see as advantages of working for "company # 2" mentioned in my previous post, they provide:
- the entire sales and marketing effort,
- all time and costs spent contacting the client,
- composition of the storyboard,
- writers dedicated to writing the script for VO,
- actual recording of the VO, (sometimes male, sometimes female),
- editors dedicated to the entire editing effort, including overlays, lower 3rds, etc.,
- revisions and re-cuts based upon client needs, and
- billing/admin costs.
This company has staff dedicated to each of those efforts.
Other "houses" expect all those tasks to be done by one person, for only a few dollars' difference.
That's a BIG difference in the amount of time, the amount of work, and the range of talent (e.g. writing, recording VO, etc) to handle each task required, all for nearly the same amount of compensation.

HTH others who, like me, are still on the fence.
Good luck.

Denis,

Your content here is excellent.

Andrew

Turnhere
 

That new pitch seems pretty stupid but we have made some money in the past off of them. We charged more than what they offered and had our lower level employees go out and shoot the videos when we had the time. We did like 4 or 5 shoots. They pay some bills but they're kind of a hassle. Things like Turnhere are good when you really need them and not worth it when you don't.


Blare Media - Video Production - Commercial Videography