Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

I met with a producer who contracts out shoots/edits, and I'll be working with him for the first time. He'd like to know my day rate. It'd be for shooting - but using my own equipment.

I'd use a Canon 7D, Canon 60D, own light and audio equipment.

I've just never established a day rate - I've normally just bid on entire projects. I'm thinking the 350-450 range, but I don't want to lowball myself and get locked in at a low rate -- nor scare him away and not work with me in the future.

Thoughts?

Is there a different day rate for editing, should he ask me to do that, as well?

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

What exactly are you going to be hired to do? Camera Op? Are you going to be directing the shoot too? setting up lights/audio?
I work for a local production company, and they pay between $125 - $175 a day for PAs, and around $275 - $400 a day if you are going to be the lead. (Camera Op, director etc..) I'm based in Southern CT, near NYC btw.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

I'd be shooting interviews/b-roll for a corporate video. Primary (only) shooter and providing my own gear. A Canon 7D, a Chimera light kit (2 softboxes), a Zoom H4n, a a Sennheiser lav and Rode Shotgun mic recording two tracks. And then the hardware (glidetrack/monopod/tripod) stuff.

We agreed on $350 for MY day rate, and then equipment on top of that - but haven't established a rate for the equipment. What would you think for all that stuff? It's not a pro rig (matte boxes/redrock/etc), but it's an L lens.

How would you price for equipment? $200? $300?

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Well for the feature I did last year (here in NYC), our DP's day rate broke down to about $500 per day. He supplied some lights, the Camera and all of the lenses. Included a bunch of smaller equipement ie sticks, hi-hat, several china balls and assorted fixtures, you know stuff like that, but we still had a medium size grip package too.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Do an a la carte option where you can plan out the shot the night before and figure what equipement you'll need. Will save him a lot of money in the end run. Yeah that's money out your pocket but at the same time he'll appreciate you thinking of the production budget (and go a long way to forging a long working relationship for other projects). The fact that you have it there gives him the option of wether to use it or not. Plus if you're not going to need a glide cam on a specific day, why lug it around?

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Seems like a logical place to begin with gear is setting a rental rate that is equal to 3-5% of the purchase price. I realize as things get older and less in demand, etc., this may not work, and you may eventually not be able to bill as much for each item, but it's a starting point.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

To figure out your day rate you must make enough for you and your business to survive.

FreelanceSwitch Hourly Rate Calculator

NPPA: Cost of Doing Business Calculator

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Craig, that's a great calculator and a good eye opener for most people.
Apparently I should be charging $177.80 per hour though.... which is probably just shy of what I'm (cough) worth. :)

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Rental rate is usually between 0.5% and 2%.

You guys should be careful about discussing rates on an online forum - there are laws in many countries that take a dim view of that type of thing...

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

As a general rule people in this industry are a creative and passionate bunch. But as far as being salespeople and/or business people we fall woefully short. Add trying to "break into the business" to the mix coupled with our dread of hearing the word "no" results in a $275 day rate. At that price a $600 wedding is doable.

BEFORE quoting your rate to a production company, find out what they charge, it's not that hard to do. Don't be surprised when you find out you are offering your services for less than half and really now who's fault is that?

And NEVER quote a range, you will always find yourself at the lowest you will take and you have forever locked yourself into that price with that company.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Sorry Liam, Josh is correct. In North America, rental rates are between 2.5-5% on your camera rig. If anyone is only making $50 on their $10,000 rig, they should find another line of work.

Please tell us more. I'd like to know what countries and what laws? This is the first I've ever heard anyone say that (at least in reference to the countries we live in).

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Good advice David. Specific to the above quote, always tell them what you can do for them to reach their target. Sell the Return On Investment (ROI). Price should be last in the conversation. Price becomes less important when they already know they're getting good value (ROI). If you "lead with price" you're appealing to their desire to pay less and you've already lost that since you've made the dollar amount more important than the service you provide.

If someone starts by asking your price, you deflect by answering what your value is to them. Price vs value. Sell Value (not price).

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

This forum is hosted in the U.S.A., so the *only* law that that actually governs
what is posted here is U.S. federal law, regardless of any poster's nationality.

There's nothing wrong or illegal about discussing rental rates on an online forum.

What's wrong (and illegal) is to fix rates with competitors, and that's not what's
happening here. In the United States, price fixing can be prosecuted as a criminal
federal offense under Section 1 of the Sherman Antitrust Act, Title 15 of the U.S Code,
enacted on 2 July 1890 (see http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/21...1----000-.html).

Again, a discussion of rental rates does not constitute price fixing. If anybody tries to
use this forum to establish price fixing with another party, I'd ban 'em so fast it would
make your head spin. With that said, and since it's perfectly legal to discuss rental
rates, post away to your heart's content.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

In the UK there are going daily freelance rates. Not everyone works to them and some people charge more, there are also union minimum rates. This is different to running a cartel , which implies an agreement between competing companies to fix prices.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

I had an interesting situation come up recently. One of my larger clients has been hiring me for shoots and we settled on an hourly rate rather than a day rate since they feed me so much work. These shoots sometimes included going to a local studio to use a greenscreen. They would pay the studio and me for a shoot.
About a month ago, I finished construction on my own studio with a greenscreen and they were among the first to book a shoot. I decided on a rate for the entire package (me and the studio) which in the end saves my client about 25% compared to the other situation and still is plenty to make me happy.
I discussed the rates with the client before the session and they thought it seemed a bit too expensive. I had to explain what they were paying before and the reality of how much money they were saving with the new arrangement. And they are actually getting better quality since my space has acoustically treated.
On top of that, I use all CFL (Kino's) and LED so the talent is more comfy when under the lights. I also include my teleprompter and any other goodies they may need. (I'm not into the Chinese menu approach)
As I'm rattling this stuff off in the discussion, I could see the lightbulb finally click on and they agreed they were getting a smoking deal.

I just found it strange that they couldn't make the connection. My only thought is that they got used to paying me a certain amount for shooting. Since the check is still made out to my company but the amounts are higher, maybe that bothered them. Bottom line is they're cool with it now and have done several shoots at my new space.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

I just looked at my own prices and at I'm at about 3%, so what do I know!

To be fair, (to me) in the UK I've hired lots of kit at 2% or less, though I must say I'm always amazed at how much my Producer gets charged for gear we hire abroad - I always thought we were just being ripped off!

Also, the OP wasn't just asking about camera rental he mentions lights, audio and editing; I can certainly see the need to get a faster return on some of the newer cameras as they are cheaper and less rugged than older systems, but lights, lenses and everything else has a longer shelf life and that should be reflected in the hire fees.


I was simply saying to be careful, it's a fine line between asking an innocent question about day rates to be being accused of price fixing. Asking, as Chris says, is legal, but if you then adjust your fees in line with what has been discussed you've probably broken the law. At least, that's my understanding of the law in the UK and US.

If you're asking people what fee to charge so that you don't price charge too little, then you're OK.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Not quite.
This should clarify it:
Legal: "Hey how much are you guys charging? Cool, I'll charge the same."
Illegal: "Hey, why don't we all agree to get together and not charge a penny less than this rate, that way people have no choice but to pay whatever we want."

We're a long way from #2.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

I'm not sure using rental rates for equipment additions is the way to go for some.

In my case I live in a major metro area. If I'm booked with just me and my camera I can get on a local train. Once I add even a small light kit, I need to use a car which adds gas, possibly tolls, very expensive parking costs. an assistant to drag the gear from parking lot to location and there's the wear and tear on the car. Basically adding gear means adding car and assistant and associated costs.

If you're not in a metro area you may be using the car anyway and parking may be right in front of the location. Additional gear may be additional minimals cost.

Rental houses don't have to factor in the cost of car and assistant.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Craig: my position is somewhere in the middle - my vehicle may or may not go into the field with me, depending on how much gear I haul. My clients NEVER pay for my vehicle BUT they DO get billed for location costs such as parking, tolls etc.

Mileage gets incurred when I leave the Greater Vancouver Area and is enough to compensate for gas and amortized wear and tear and maintenance.

Of course, I realize Brooklyn IS more urban than even Vancouver so this is meant to further the discussion and NOT to discount your very valid point.

I PERSONALLY would avoid mentioning the assist is to load/unload gear and would suggest that verbiage such as "due to the complexity of the location shoot, my assistant will be required at a day rate of $x", at least in MY specific situation... Otherwise you are likely to get promises that "our receptionist would be happy to help" and then not have anyone available when you MOST need them, like when you have a vehicle in a "loading zone" that looks more like a Fire Lane and ONE MORE TRIP to make to grab gear...

At rush hour...

With tow trucks circling like sharks...

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

My assistant is basically the grip for setting up lighting and other gear (crane for example).
Using a car in NYC is a major expense. Millage is actually minimal. It's the wear and tear, insurance, maintenance. In effect I'm bringing a piece of gear that costs tens of thousands of dollars and can be thousands of dollars to maintain annually.

Being in NYC means there are many shoots where the car isn't necessary. I don't charge for the car per se, I charge more than 2% for bringing extra gear though. Having to bring lights and crane, slider, etc. increase the my charges for the shoot. I might charge $25/hr or more for the extra gear and much of that goes to the assistant. There's no way I can carry all that extra gear myself when the nearest parking lot may be 1/4 mile from the shoot location. If NYC adds congestion pricing, the costs are going to go up even more.

Re: Trying to establish a day rate...help?
 

Again, I was furthering the discussion and NOT discounting your valid and well thought out business model...

Which brings us to the heart of the matter - each region has its own idiosyncrasies and existing business practices (plural!)... FInd out what others in your market do AND temper that with what works for YOU, logistically and financially.

In my former home town, you were EXPECTED to arrive in a vehicle and could usually park RIGHT IN FRONT of where you were shooting, except POSSIBLY during rush hour.

In Vancouver, arriving via transit/SkyTrain or taxi is equally acceptable to clients and no one seems to blink an eye, as long as you show up equipped...